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Eve And God

2008-07-17 commentary Cheryl Schatz

One’s world view can cause one to have presuppositions that bring set patterns of reasoning that have nothing to do with the text of scripture. One of these areas is with Eve’s relationship with God and whether God placed the man in charge of her basic knowledge

Date: 2008-07-17
URL: https://mmoutreach.org/wim/2008/07/17/eve-and-god/


One’s world view can cause one to have presuppositions that bring set patterns of reasoning that have nothing to do with the text of scripture. One of these areas is with Eve’s relationship with God and whether God placed the man in charge of her basic knowledge. Some think that God created the woman to be led by Adam so that Adam was given the responsibility to tell the woman God’s prohibition. Hierarchists (or complementarians as many call them) start with the world view that God gave Adam authority over the woman and this gets factored into their view. Let’s take one step away from our presuppositions and look at a question that many have not pondered before. The question is “Who instructed the woman on what she could eat”? Note this is not a question on what she could not eat, but regarding what she could eat.

So who instructed the woman on her diet? Was it God or was it Adam? Hierarchists normally assume that it was Adam. After all if God gave Adam authority over his wife, instructing her on the things that God had already spoken to Adam about, would seem to be obvious. But rather than assuming things, why don’t we look at scripture to see what God has revealed?

Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Gen 1:29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

In Genesis 1:27, 28 God creates both the man and the woman and blesses them. After he creates them he says several things to them (plural). In verse 29 God says something that it not recorded in chapter 2 at Adam’s creation.* This is certainly not a contradiction but a piece of the story that is not given in chapter two. In verse 29 of chapter 1, God tells both the man and the woman that they are given every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth. They are also given to eat from every tree which has fruit yielding seed. What does this tell us? The word “given” in the Hebrew means the granting of permission. So God gave permission for both the man and the woman to eat from all the herbs of the field that has seed in it and from the every single tree that has fruit yielding seed.

Notice two things about this passage. The first thing that we notice is that it is God himself telling them what they can eat. It doesn’t say that God gave Adam directions to tell his wife what to eat. The passage has God giving explicit permission to eat. So who told the woman what she could eat? It was God himself.

The next thing that we can see from the passage is that permission was not given to eat from any plant that did not yield seed. We also can see that permission was not given to eat from any tree that did not have fruit that yielded seed. So we have permission that is not given regarding food in chapter 1.

What else can we note from this passage? We can note that God spoke to both Adam* and his wife and gave them both permission to eat from every single tree that bears fruit that yields seed. God said that every tree which has fruit yielding seed was given to them by permission. Since we know from chapter 2 that there was only one tree forbidden to Adam (and thus also his wife), we can rightfully conclude that every fruit bearing tree had seed except for one. There was only one tree that did not have life in it.

So coming to the text itself we can clearly see that God himself gave the woman permission to eat. We can also see that God himself did not give the woman permission to eat from any tree that did not have fruit yielding seed.

What about the idea that Adam was responsible to give the instruction to his wife about what she was allowed to eat? The passage itself does not identify any such command from God to Adam. The passage itself does not identify Adam as being the one who instructed the woman. The passage itself identifies God as the giver of this knowledge and the woman was given permission to eat herbs and fruit that yields life (yields seed). Can we now confidently say that it was not Adam who instructed his wife on God’s permission to eat but God himself? Yes, we can confidently say this because it is scripture itself that instructs us on what happened.

What else can we see from the passage that relates to men and women and God’s design? We can also note that when God has both the man and woman together after creation, he does not instruct one to rule over the other. When they are both together, God also does not favor Adam and give him authority that he does not give to Eve. God does not have a personal relationship with Adam that he withholds from the woman. Lastly God does not have a relationship with the woman through Adam. God is her authority, not Adam. God gave permission to the woman. Adam did not dole out permission. God treated them equally and instructed them equally.

When one submits one presupposition to the text itself, God’s word is the one that corrects all error.

End note:

*God created the man and the woman in the beginning and called them both “Adam”.  Chapter two is specifically highlighting the man’s creation and the woman’s creation from the body of the man giving them a one-flesh union from the beginning.

Cheryl Schatz 2008-07-17

Also for those who have been following the on going saga of Matt Slick and CARM, I would like to say that finally after months of trying to get Matt to do his obligation towards me in order to resolve the hostile name calling and attacks that started on his radio show and carried forward onto his discussion board (I didn’t even know that I was being pulled onto his discussion board until I was notified on this blog that Matt had posted several “To Cheryl” posts on CARM’s discussion board), Matt Slick has finally agreed to meet me in person to have a Matthew 18 meeting.  He is refusing to bring his wife along with him stating that he wants to protect her from me (?) but he will bring along his own pastor.  I spoke to Matt’s pastor this morning to set the meeting for the last week of August.  The exact date will depend on when my pastor will get back from vacation.

The interesting thing about all of this is that my pastor was a complementarian a year ago.  He had been looking for help to refute my DVDs and was expecting to get some substantial help from Matt Slick because of the radio debates scheduled.  My pastor was very disappointed in Matt’s performance and wrote Matt that nothing he said in the debates was helpful at all in refuting me.  However the debates did help him to see the vitriol that has one side of the debate (complementarian side) attacking the other side without Christian charity.

Recently my pastor has announced that he has become a full egalitarian.  Praise the Lord!  We had many opportunities to debate this issue and issues surrounding this one and I want to publicly state my great respect and love for my pastor who has come a long way in his understanding of women in the church.  While we had many passionate debates together, he has never run away from me or treated me as if I was the enemy.  Even in the beginning he amazed me by saying that some of the things that he heard on the DVD set were the best teaching that he had heard on a particular passage (1 Cor. 14).

So things have come full circle.  We arrived in our new city just over a year ago, and it has taken about one full year to go from having a pastor who was passionately fighting for complementarianism to someone who has become a friend and supporter eager to go with me to confront Matt Slick on his sin.  I am overwhelmed.  All I can say is praise the Lord!

Cheryl Schatz 2008-07-17

One other piece of news that won’t be a surprise. Diane Sellner from CARM withdrew my ban from the CARM discussion boards for a short while. This allowed me a way to respond to the continuing attacks against me on that board. Diane continues to say that this blog attacks Matt and herself and that people here speak hateful things against them calling their motives evil. I asked her to prove her accusations or apologize. She banned me again. I guess she isn’t planning on apologizing.

I have really appreciated the gentle nature of the people who post here. For Diane to accuse the lot of you as people who attack others and who attribute evil motives to herself and Matt is way over the edge. I think your restraint has been godly and your Christ likeness has been very encouraging to me. The bible does say that good will be spoken of as evil and evil as good. I have come face to face with this very thing this past year after having tried my best to speak respectfully to someone who has made this an issue to divide over:

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

This verse brings me great hope:

2 Corinthians 6:8 by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true;

We move on no matter what the opposition is. The Trinity DVD is being edited as we speak and the opposition against me because of the DVD that has been so oppressive to me has finally lifted! I can only give God the glory for giving me mercy to carry on. When we are called names for the sake of righteousness we will have the opportunity to grow the fruit of the Spirit because of the trials we endure. God allows trials for our own good. He also gives us strength to endure. It is a joy to suffer for Christ but sad that it is at the hands of someone who calls themselves a brother in Christ.

Cheryl Schatz 2008-07-17

Don,
If I were not dealing with someone who is refusing to admit his own faults it would not have taken me this long to have a meeting with Matt Slick. I cannot judge his heart to know why he is like this, but I do believe that having others there may help him to see another perspective if he is open to others. I believe that he has already shut his heart to me and if it were only Matt and I, I may as well save my breath and just finish with the final step. But I do not want to do that without making absolutely sure that I have done every possible effort possible to bring resolution and change. It will cost us a great deal to travel and stay over at least one night but this is my commitment to resolution and following the full Matthew 18 route. It is the way that Jesus set things up for disputes between brethren. If I had pegged Matt as an “enemy” as his vice-president has already pegged me, then I would not need to waste my time, money and energy. I know that some who are supporters of Matt and who watch everything done on this blog have already made judgment calls about my motives. I do not concern myself with people who think that they have a godlike gift of reading hearts. I have only to concern myself with pleasing my Lord and keeping watch on my own attitude. It isn’t easy, but I have a strong desire to serve others including women who may find my pursuit of this matter helpful to their own situation. Jesus must remain front and center as my example and my goal.

Don, I appreciate that you were able to see my point of view. As I said, I do not have the authority to make the decision for him but I can request what I believe to be wise.

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Topics

Genesis & Creation Adam & Eve Complementarianism
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