Satan The Liar 2

As Spock would say, “Fascinating!”

The typical “rebuttal” is, “There’s a reason everybody translates it as “has become” (the way they do for everything else egals point out is mistranslated). It’s just that the “reason” isn’t a good one!

Looking at the interlinear, we notice that the literal English below each word is mostly rendered in the present tense, but when we come to “eie” it’s past. Should be obvious, even with some tense ambiguity in Hebrew, that God is not speaking of Adam’s “like us” as something he just achieved.

Or as Data would say, “Curious!”

Also note that God says all this about “the human”, not “they”. It would appear that only one of them had ceased being “like us”. Hmmm…

Every translation involves interpretation, and it is wise to remember that.  This happens quite a bit, it says X; but I think it “means” Y, so I will translate it as Y, esp. as that is similar to what KJV did, it is clear to me that God does not want women leaders, etc.

Excellent scholarship and critical thinking Cheryl and Paula.  The last thing traditional hierarchalists want is for their people (especially women) to dig into interlinears and the original languages of the Bible.

What they want is an unquestioned authority structure based on what they say the Bible says.

In a macabre sort of way it’s almost like the sayers of the law in H.G. Wells’  The Island of Doctor Moreau (1896)

No wonder Jesus told them “Ye are of your father the devil…”

““Behold the man was like one of us…” ”

Wow, ‘has become like one of Us’…..is not a good translation is it? Wonder why it is used?

So, Satan did tell a complete lie.

Yes, this is great stuff and thanks for unpacking it for us. I do have to ask…Who is’us’ in this passage. ;o)

“The implication then is that God experiences both good and evil.  But does he?  The word for ‘knows’ and ‘knowing’ is the Hebrew ‘yada’ and its primary meaning means to know relationally and experientially.  What the serpent is saying is that God experientially knows’ evil as well as good.”
Now here is something I have never understood. God must ‘know’ about evil, right. You are saying He does not experience evil? And that is the difference?

Lin,

Some say that the “us” is called “honorific plural” or something to that effect. It was common in ancient times to use the plural when referring to deities.

But if that were the case for the Bible, then we’d expect God to *always* use the plural when using a pronoun to refer to himself. Yet that isn’t the case. Granted it’s used more than we know about in English, since it isn’t typically translated as plural, but the exceptions argue against this honorific plural.

Some then theorize that “us” means the angels, but I think that’s pretty easy to dismiss.

The other possibility, to which I agree, is that “us” is the Trinity. The word there for God is “Elohim”, which is the plural of “Eloha”, so it literally reads “And he says the Lord Gods,  ‘Look, the human was as one from us…’ ”

The word “was” is the same root as that used in Gen. 1:2– “And the earth she was chaos and empty…” (In the young/old earth debate, old earthers prefer “the earth became chaos…”) So there is considerable debate between “was” and “became” on more than one topic.

Lin #4,
The “us” that the man is no longer like is the Trinity.  While most of the Bible talks about God as “I”, the book of beginnings (Genesis) reveals God in the plural as three persons.  All three have the same nature so the holiness of God needs to be stated for all three.  Man is no longer in a sinless state while God is “Holy, holy, holy”.

In my mind when the way that the bible is translated contradicts Jesus’ words (Jesus said that there is no truth in satan) then we need to dig further to see where our understanding of scripture is wrong when we see satan telling what appears to be “truth”.

Lin #5,

Yes, I believe it means to intimately know but even more than that.  It is something that isn’t even connected to his nature at all.

Remember Jesus said that “in him” (satan) there is no truth?

On the other hand, what is said about God is that “in him” there is no darkness at all.  1 John 1:5.

One has no light and no truth, the other is light and has no darkness and is truth and cannot lie.  God then is good and in him is no evil or experience of evil.

How appropriate! The anti-spam word is “help” and I’ve tried to post something twice and it just won’t take it.

Cheryl, I emailed my “despised and rejected” post to you.

Will some ezer be there?

Yup, ezer here 🙂  Paula’s post shows up as #9.  She got caught by my spam catcher because there were a ton of links.  She is out and free now 😉

Well the shock of the opposed translation did not feel very good. Ofcourse I have feelings of disappointment over translations but I’m am lifted up by coming to know the original meaning.

‘Yes, I believe it means to intimately know but even more than that.  It is something that isn’t even connected to his nature at all.
Remember Jesus said that “in him” (satan) there is no truth?
On the other hand, what is said about God is that “in him” there is no darkness at all.  1 John 1:5.
One has no light and no truth, the other is light and has no darkness and is truth and cannot lie.  God then is good and in him is no evil or experience of evil.’

I don’t understand this all with my mind, but all I know is that what I’m hearing and reading makes be full of joy. These are ‘concepts’ I knew as a child, but ‘my idea’ of God has become distorted over time for various and multiple reasons.

Pinklight,

Be encouraged because all of us have had distorted views of God because of tradition and satan’s work.  Satan hates God and wants him to be viewed in a bad light.  I remember when I came to the place in my life where I gave myself fully to Jesus.  I had been viewing him as the God who wanted to make me miserable because I saw his will as only wanting to control me.  My eyes were opened when I read a book that showed how my perception of God was completely wrong.  The view that I had of God was instead satan’s false testimony and not the truth.  God loves us so much and desires that we come to know him.  He is also willing to work in our hearts so that we desire the things that he desires.  God is not a spoil-sport as satan portrays him.  All of satan’s words are lies and distortions.  We cannot believe a single thing he says.

Years ago when I was doing a lot of studying in old JW books in order to understand their theology so that I could better serve them as teaching them the truth in Christ, I came across an odd statement in the Watchtower that said that a truth spoken by satan is just as true as a truth spoken by God.  They said that we are to embrace truth wherever we find it.  Apparently they didn’t take seriously Jesus’ words that there is NO truth IN satan.  There is no such thing as a truth spoken by satan because he is incapable of truth.  He is an example of one who has been turned over to his sin.  He is fully and completely in darkness.  He is the complete opposite of God.  Where God has no darkness in him, satan is only darkness.  Where God is fully light, there is no light in satan at all.  Our goal is to find what God has said and embrace it, believe it and practice it.  God’s word is truth.

Two cents:

John8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who did the devil murder? The man and the woman, or just the woman? Adam was not deceived.

The devil was a deliberate deceiver, so these who Jesus accusses of being of their father the devil, knew better?

Satan deceived only the woman so we could not blame his deception on Adam’s sin.

With the Jews being of their father the devil, they are steeped in sin as he was, and follow his path.  They are of their father the devil because even though they knew the truth of scripture they didn’t stay in that truth and they practice deception by teaching as doctrine the traditions of men thus invalidating the word of God.  Yes, I do believe that the Jews knew better since Jesus said that they didn’t stay in the truth.  That means that they had to have known the truth to begin with.

Make sense?

That’s helps alot. Thanks!

“Behold the man was like one of us…”

Cheryl,

I’m wondering, could this mean that Adam alone became unlike “one of us” because he alone and not the woman ate while not deceived? So Adam alone experienced evil (unlike God) because he ate while not being deceived?? Or am I way off base here?

“What the serpent is saying is that God experientially “knows” evil as well as good.”

God does not experientially “know” evil. So Adam alone, and not the woman experientially “knew” evil because Adam alone ate willfully??

“God is saying “Behold the man was like one of us…” God is not agreeing with satan that the likeness with God came on the day of their eating the fruit but the likeness started on their day of creation. They were like God in the beginning.”

So God was saying this about Adam but NOT the woman and which has to do with why God did not bannish the woman from the garden – because she did not experience evil like Adam did because she was deceived. So it could not be said by God that the woman “was like one of us” because she did not sin the same way Adam did.

So while the woman was still like “one of us/God” Adam no longer was???