Cheryl Schatz

Mark,

I can’t see how your view is any different to Greg’s really. You say we are born with a sinful nature, yet you say that we have the ability to not sin.

Since Greg doesn’t believe that we have an “old man” nature and I believe that we do, how is it that our view is not different? Also I didn’t say that we have the ability not to sin at all so that we are sinless. I did say that we have the ability to make choices when we are tempted, whether we will sin or not. For example many married men have had temptations to commit adultery but not all have committed adultery. The fact that many have not sinned in this way even if they are unbelievers shows that they had a choice to stay away from this sin.

What makes us able to make those choices? Free-will? IF you say free will then your view is identitical to Greg’s since he also believes that we have the ability to do good or keep God’s requirements by our own free-will.

God has given us the power to make choices. Otherwise it would be deceitful for God to tell us to “choose you this day…” if we had not power of choice. But at the same time we do not have the ability to keep the requirements of the law otherwise we wouldn’t need a Savior.

Problem is this contradicts with scripture. Eph 2 says we are dead in sin.

Eph 2:”dead people” can respond to God. They can also sin.

Romans 3 outlines the nature of sin. No-one seeks God, nor does any do good.

Romans 3:11 is a quote from Psalms 14:1-3 and the context about those who do not seek God, is those who say there is no God.

Psalm 14:1–3 (NASB)
1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

Yet throughout the Scripture we find those who seek and fear God. Deut. 4:29 is a prophetic word about those who will seek God.

Deuteronomy 4:29 (NASB)
29 “But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

2 Chronicles 15:4 (NET)
15:4 Because of their distress, they turned back to the LORD God of Israel. They sought him and he responded to them.

You said:

John 3 says that we need to be re-born before we can come to God.

John 3 doesn’t say this at all. It says that unless we are born again we cannot see the kingdom of God. It doesn’t say that we can’t come to God.

Many old testament prophecies of the new covenant talk of a ‘new heart’ that is needed becasue our heart is corrupt.

We are told to circumcise our hearts. We do this through repentance as we come to God and as we believe Him, He gives us a new heart.

Point is- until the Spirit gives us a new heart and opens our eyes we will never be able to act in faith in Christ.

Faith in God and receiving Jesus comes before we become children of God.

John 1:12 (NASB95)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

The Bible never says that we are again first and then we are able to have faith.

And Romans 14 says everything not done in faith is sin. So even those ‘good’ works are sin since they are not done in faith.

Romans 14 is talking about believers not unbelievers. The context is eating something that you believe to be sinful. It is going against our conscience. The chapter has nothing to do with unregenerate men doing good works.

Romans 14:22–23 (NASB)
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

You said:

Our free-will is corrupt since the fall. We will always choose sin over God, unless the Spirit intervenes in our lives.

As I said before, our free-will is not completely free. However God has chosen to give us the freedom to seek God as He requires this from all of us.

If faith is not itself a gift, can you explain therefore how then we are not adding to our salvation?

Salvation is the gift of God and the vehicle is by grace through faith. The faith that is listed as God’s gift is not given to all of the saved just as not all have the same gifts.

EVen if God does 99% and we do the last 1% it is still works based salvation.

If we “work” even 1% for our salvation then it is a works based salvation. However faith is not a work.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB)
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 4:2–3 (NASB)
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

THis is what Augustine and the reformers have been fighting against throughout all of Church history, yet people still wish to promote this false teaching.

Augustine the Father of Catholicism and any brother who separates from their brothers in Christ by calling their faith a work is harming the body of Christ for we are not to separate from our brothers in the faith or to call their faith a heresy merely because they are not Calvinists.