Mark

Cheryl,

I understand that you believe in a sin nature from Adam and Greg does not, but the logical conclusion of what you are saying leads to the same path. You say we have the ability as unregenerate people to come to God. You say that we have the ability as unregenerate people to not sin. If this is true, then theoretically we could be sinless. If I am able to avoid sinful behaviour because of my free-will, this should apply to all sin, therefore theoretically I could avoid sin even though I have a sin nature. This then leads to the problem you pointed out with Greg that we then no longer need a saviour. I can’t see how you can worm your way out of that one. Either we will by nature always sin or we won’t, and we can keep God’s commandments. The view you are presenting doesn’t make sense.

You used the example of an adulterer. Problem is Jesus up’d the anti. Anyone who looks lustfully is committing adultery. Are you willing to say that we can fulfil this requirement by ourselves, without the intervening of the Holy Spirit.

I agree that God gave us the abililty to make choices. God calls on us to follow him. The problem is that after the fall our nature was corrupted by sin. We by nature reject God by sinning from the moment we are born. I’m sure you can see Cheryl after having children, that we as parents have to teach our children how to be good. They will by nature be evil. You don’t teach a toddler how to lie, he/she will do it automatically. Thus our ‘free-will’ is totally corrupted. We will always choose sin over God In our natures. This is why we need a saviour, we can’t do it by ourselves.

I would like to know how you think that ‘dead people’ can respond to God. According to the passage we were all dead people. We were all people under wrath- every single person. BUT, verse 4 says it was GOD who made us alive, not us. What you have said is completely contradictory to Eph 2, and it strips the glory from God. Only God can make us alive, we have no ability by ourselves.
It is also interesting that you think the ‘faith’ in Eph 2 is not a gift for every believer. Then I guess you would also like to be consistent and say that the salvation that is by grace through faith (which is what the verse is about) is not for every Christian. You can’t have it both ways Cheryl. I’m afraid you have dug yourself into a hole with this one.

Romans 3 is a quote from the psalms that is true. But to come to the conclusion that you have is misguided. We should ask the question- how is Paul using it here? What is the context? The verses before the quote give the answer.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,…

It doesn’t seem like Paul is talking only about those who do not seek God does it Cheryl? No, Paul clearly states that all are like this, Jew and Gentile, even himself. I’m afraid Paul’s intention here, (noting that the first 3 chapters of Romans are dealing with everyone, Jew and Gentile) is that he is using this quote to support his view that every single person is like this. No one seeks God by themselves as dead in sin. I can’t understand why you would want to water our sinful nature down when the bible is so graphic about it. You can’t just dismiss the context of Romans 3 and Paul’s intention of using this quote to support his argument, as irrelevant and only rely on the Old Testament context. Paul is clearly using it here with another purpose.

Your other old testament quotes do nothing to support your view of unregenerate man seeking God. The first one is a dubious translation, the NIV makes is a hypothetical by using ‘if’, that is “But if from there you seek the Lord”,
In the 2 Chronicles verse, you forgot to mention the verse before which show God intervening through the Prophet Azariah. So the same principle applies, God has to work first before we can respond.
Another point to note is that the Bible never talks about our own free-will, as if we can accept God by ourselves especially in the verses you quoted. These passages are silent on why the people turned to God, but we have other clear passage which show us why people do turn, namely, because God intervenes. Does Jesus not say that no-one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him? We are better understanding the silent passages from the clear passages, not assuming free-will into them.

John 3- Cheryl, what is the kingdom of God, if not a relationship with him? What does Jesus mean by being born again? I would like to know your opinion? When are we born of the Spirit (verse 5)? You must believe that the Spirit of God does not enter our life until we respond in faith right?

So if we can circumcise our own heart by our own repentance, why did we need the new covenant. Didn’t at least some of the Jews repent Cheryl? I think you are greatly misinformed. The whole purpose of the new covenant was that God would give us a new heart (Jer 31:31). The Jews broke God’s covenant because they had a heart of stone. In the New Covenant God promises to give us a new heart by his spirit internally. He promises to right his laws on our hearts through the Spirit. This is of such great importance. Your view makes the new covenant un-necessary. In our own strength we are nothing and can do nothing to save ourselves. Again I must protest that you are stealing the glory from God in HIS work. It is not our own doing.

By the way Cheryl, repentance is also a gift of God not our own strength
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
Who grants repentance here Cheryl, clearly God. Repentance and faith are gifts of God to his sheep, so that no-one can boast.

You said “Faith in God and receiving Jesus comes before we become children of God.”
Really Cheryl, I don’t think Romans 8 says this
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

We were predestined to be conformed to Jesus image before we are justified according to these verses. And since faith is the requirement for justification we must conclude that no-where does faith precede God’s ordained plan. We were God’s children CHOSEN before the world was created according to Eph 1:4. If only you realised Cheryl, that you were God’s chosen child before you even knew about Him.
It is true that John 1 says we become God’s child after we trust in Jesus. I believe that, but I also believe that bible clearly teaches that this was God’s plan for my life before the world was even created.

You said “The Bible never says that we are again first and then we are able to have faith.”

I’m interested to know how you pray for your unsaved friends Cheryl. Do you pray for God to open their eyes or to soften their hearts? Or do you not even ask God to help and just believe that their own free-will is good enough? I sure hope you do the former and not the latter! You see everyone believes in the sovereignty of God when they pray and ask God to intervene, even if you deny it when you speak to me. Being ‘born-again’ is God opening their eyes to the message of the cross. We in sin are dead people according to Eph 2 therefore we need to be re-born and made alive, and like i said ealier, EPh 2 tells us that it is God who makes us alive not oursleves. Being born again definitely comes before faith. It is the work of the spirit in unregenerate man so that he can accept the message of salvation.

Roman 14- I agree with the context, but the verse still says what it says. Everything not done in faith is sin, whether you’re a believer or unbeliever. The reason being that everything is to be done for the glory of God. IF it is not done in faith in God how can it give glory to God, it simply can’t. I can’t see why you would deny this biblical verse. Do you believe that you can do things that are not in faith in Christ and it not be sin?

You said “As I said before, our free-will is not completely free. However God has chosen to give us the freedom to seek God as He requires this from all of us.”

Where does it say this in the bible? God demands that we follow him and no other, but I haven’t seen anywhere where the bible says we have the ‘freedom to seek God’. Aren’t we as fallen people living in the darkness, suppressing the truth, until God opens our eyes? Please show me verses talking about our freedom to seek God and our free-will in doing this?

“If we “work” even 1% for our salvation then it is a works based salvation. However faith is not a work.”

I agree that faith is not a work, it is because it is a gift of God so that none can boast. If faith is something we do without God, then it is a work of ours because it doesn’t stem from God, therefore you have works based salvation. This is the problem with your view. You can’t skirt around the issue. You need to do better at convincing me that you are not promoting a works based salvation. Like I said Pelagianism (Augustine) and semi-pelagianism (reformers) were both condemned. How is your view not semi-pelagianism Cheryl? Unless we accept that every single piece of our salvation is from God, it will always be works based. That is simple truth.
I do pray that God will reveal that to you, in the same way he did to me a few years ago. It totally changed my understanding of the grace of God. He is so merciful.