Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

“Where does the Bible say that Cornelius was born again before he heard the gospel?”

You can’t keep copping out and saying everything is human tradition Cheryl, it’s hardly convincing. Now about Cornelius, did God do something before he accepted the message of salvation from Peter? Did he have a vision, did he see an angel of God? Did he not experience all this before he heard the gospel. Yes he did. This is God working before the message of Jesus was even preached. This is the issue.

No it isn’t the issue. We agree that for a person to come to faith in Christ, God has to work in their life. But where we don’t agree is that you say that the miracle of the new birth happens before one comes to faith in Christ. I asked you to show this miracle of the new birth that happened to Cornelius before he heard the gospel message. Seeing an angel of God hardly qualifies. The miracle of the new birth is the seed of God born in us. Where is that in the text? Please show it to me?

Does God intervene in people’s lives before they hear the message so that they may believe. According to Acts 10 yes, aswell as the rest of the New Testament. Although the words ‘born again’ are not used here by Luke does not mean that God did not work in Cornelius before he accepted the message.

Again, you are confusing God’s work in drawing a person with the experience of the new birth. Of course the text doesn’t say that Cornelius was born again before he heard the message because the new birth cannot happen before a person believes.

The kingdom of God is twofold Cheryl. It came in Jesus, but it is still yet to come until the final consummation. This is the now/not yet tension. I would have thought you would have learnt that in your studies.

My friend, you are mistaken. The kingdom is not twofold. The kingdom will come in “that day” of the Lord. Rather the king came, not the kingdom. Jesus is very clear about that. He told Pilate that he is king, but he also said that his kingdom was not of this world. No two fold kingdom at all. Just a coming kingdom and a present reigning King.

So we enter the kingdom of God when we are saved into Jesus name, but we are still waiting to enter it entirely when we go to eternity.

We enter the kingdom of God only through Jesus. Paul makes this clear. We are “in” Christ. We are buried with him in his death and made alive with Him. And we are “seated” in the heavenlies with him. So our are only in the kingdom now because the King is in heaven and we are His body. But physically on this earth, we have yet to enter the kingdom. It is consistently a future event.

Ephesians 2:6 (NASB)
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

We are indeed in the heavenly kingdom now — spiritually because our “head” is there and we are indeed “in” Him.

You have not dealt with John 3 at all. John 3 is clear that we are to be born again BEFORE we see or enter the kingdom of heaven. How can this be if it is after salvation?

I have consistently dealt with this passage showing that entering into the kingdom is future. But let me add one thing. If God had wanted this passage to say that we must be born again before we can be given the gift of faith and before we can be saved, He could easily have said that. He would not have had to mention a word about heaven for our salvation starts here.

John 3:3 Hypothetical Calvinist edition
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you (Nicodemus, an regenerate man), unless one (including you Nicodemus) is miraculously born again first while they are still in the state of being an unregenerate reprobate man, he cannot be given the gift of faith and be saved.”

But here is a big problem for you, according to your belief, being born again is not equal to being saved. So when the person is “born again” they are still unregenerate and unsaved. The next thing that happens is that God gifts this unrepentant person who is still not regenerated with the gift of faith. That means that God gives His gift of faith to an unbeliever and a reprobate man. They don’t have to believe God. They don’t even have to love God and they won’t because they are not regenerated through salvation. They are merely “born again”. So God puts His seed into this unbeliever and then He puts a gift of faith into the unbeliever and miraculously they are saved by God’s believing for them and God repenting for them???

Okay that is all I could get to today. Not sure when I can finish. I have lots of other work to get to. And it is tax season. Oh joy!