Mark

Cheryl,

The kingdom of God/Heaven is the same thing, but just expressed differently, so although the term ‘heaven’ is used it is still the kingdom of God. And please don’t give the impression that I don’t believe the kingdom is not future. I have said it is, but it has also begun in Jesus first visit to earth. That is why in Jesus parables he talks about things growing, the mustard see growing into a tree. This has begun already has it not? Or are all Jesus parables only references on heaven? When John the Baptist said that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, what did he mean in your view? Obviously you don’t believe he was talking about Jesus. Here is another example
Mar 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
And another
Mar 4:26 And he said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground.
Notice it doesn’t say ‘will’ be like. This is present tense. Again…
Mar 4:30 And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it?
If the kingdom is ONLY future, it doesn’t make sense. Jesus is describing it then and there to his hearers. What about this one
Mar 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
This doesn’t make sense if the kingdom hasn’t begun yet. There must be people out there 2000years old hey?
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
We are in God’s kingdom when we are justified. It has already begun, although we wait for it’s completion.

You see Cheryl, the kingdom like I have said has begun, but not yet complete- the now/not yet tension. I understand your insistance to say it is future because you need to see it that way to understand John 3 and regeneration.

‘In fact the terms “unregenerate” and “born-again” are opposites. They cannot exist together.”

I agree. An ungenerate person is one who is dead in sin. A regenerate person is one who has been born again. Your still looking at born again as only salvation, and this is where I think you are wrong.

“I wonder why you didn’t quote these verses? Is it because they are so obvious about a future judgment and a future entering into the kingdom that they cannot even be twisted to be about the here and the now?”

Wow, that’s a bit harsh isn’t it. You call me a brother aswell but say I twist the scriptures. Don’t criticise me when you do the same thing. NB. I have said all along that the kingdom is also future-please read me correctly. I disagree that it is ONLY future and was not inaugurated when Christ came.

“In fact everything about the “kingdom of heaven” is so obviously in the future and not in operation on the earth.”

I agree that the kingdom is heavenly not on earth. Maybe that is why you misunderstand me. If you think I am saying God’s kingdom is the earth, this is not what I believe. Let me try to say it plainly. God’s kingdom was inaugurated when Christ came, and will be fulfilled at his second coming. Everything in the Bible points to Christ, so when he came, God’s kingdom began. God conquered over sin and death and Satan then- his kingdom began, BUT it is still yet to be completely fulfilled. We live in the period beween the inauguration and the complete fulfilment.

“Now Mark, I have carefully gone through this piece by piece to show that the action of God which is the verb salvation is the “gift”. The rest only explains how the action is gifted to us “by grace” and “through faith”.

Cheryl, I disagree with your exegesis. Logically we must say then that ‘grace’ is not even a gift then. Is this what you believe? Do you believe that God does not bestow a gift of grace upon us. Is it just an abstract idea of God’s? Col 2:13 also talks about us being dead in our sins and uncircumcised sinful nature? If we are by nature because of our sinful nature passed down from Adam, dead in sin, how on earth can we possibly have the ability to have faith in God. It simply doesn’t make sense. We needed God to do something to make us not-dead. Why does Paul in 2 Thess thank God that their faith is growing if it is not God’s work?
2Th 1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
Is it God who increases our faith or is it us? Answer that for me at least.

“Mark, you must be very busy, because you are not taking the time to carefully read what I have written. I didn’t say that the faith outlined in Ephesians 2 is not for every believer. Instead it is 1 Cor. 12:9 where the faith listed as a gift is not given to every believer.”
I’m not so sure you were so clear about that one. Look what you wrote…”Salvation is the gift of God and the vehicle is by grace through faith. The faith that is listed as God’s gift is not given to all of the saved just as not all have the same gifts.”

You were clearly talking about Eph 2:8 in your first sentence, so why should I have assumed you switched in your second sentence. So what you are now saying is that the faith in Eph 2:8 is different to the gift of faith in 1 Cor 12. Maybe it was you who were not so clear, rather than me misreading you? Fair comment?

“Who is claiming that our faith is “without the help of God”? It isn’t me. We are required to believe, but God is the one who draws us so it is never without the help of God. When you say things like this, I wonder why you do this? Have you accepted a false view of non-Calvinism from those who wish to separate from their brothers and sisters in Christ?”

Ok I think I am getting closer to understanding your view…maybe! So God ‘draws’ everybody (however that works) and this is how God helps? But when the decision needs to be made then it is solely up to the person…correct? God does not help that person actually believe, he just draws them in however you understand that.
No I don’t know anyone who wants to separate Calvinists from non-calvinists. I don’t think that is anyone’s intention in our churches. I simply want to know the truth. I want to know that if the act of saving faith is not something God gives to us, how can we say that we are therefore not adding something of our own to salvation? I’m yet to here a convincing statement on it. I can’t see how God draws every single person to himself when clearly not everyone knows about Christianity. I can’t see how as sinful people with a dead corrupt nature we can be expect people to accept Christ unless he opens their eyes to the message.

“This is illogical. You are defining faith as having nothing at all to do with us.”

No, not at all, but I think we are at least getting to the heart of the matter- how free-choice and God’s sovereignty work together. Faith is our action, it has to be since people who don’t believe are condemned. However faith is also something God grants to us aswell. Same as repentance in 2 Tim 2. God requires us to repent yet he is the very one who grants it. Look here is a clear example from Scripture that shows what I mean. Think about Joseph- who was responsible for him being sold into slavery in Egypt…his brothers clearly. Yet what does Joseph say.
Gen 45:8 So it was not you who sent me here, but God. He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt.

This is the tension in the Bible. We are responsible for our actions, yet at the same time God is at work aswell. It is wrong to go one way or the other. You can’t deny that God is involved in our saving faith, yet you can’t deny that we are the ones who make the decision. This is the tension. We believe because it is very much our decision to believe, yet we believe because it is very much God’s action to make us believe. This is where people stumble because they can’t handle it. But like I pointed out with Romans 9- it is not human will or exertion, but’s God’s mercy which saves us.

“This is where you are wrong because it is not “saving faith” that is the cause for boasting. It is “salvation” that could be a cause for boasting if one worked for it. But since we already defined saving faith as not a work and since there is nothing that one can do to earn salvation, your comments are illogical.”

I don’t think you can separate all these things all the time Cheryl. You seem to want to completely separate salvation from faith all the time. Eph 2:8-9 I don’t think allows for that. Sure we can boast if we work for our salvation, but surely there is room for boasting if I believe and you don’t, if faith isn’t a gift. There is heaps of room for boasting. The person who chose, made a better decision, they were wiser, understood more etc etc. This I reject. The verses do not lend themselves to such seperation like you have done. Salvation, grace, faith are all gifts, so that we may never boast of anything of ourselves.

I think you had a cheap shot a Piper there Cheryl. Any of us are vulnerable to pride not just Calvinists. I’m sure if you or I are ever in a position like Piper or anyone like that we would struggle. It is a good thing that Piper has realised this, he takes sin seriously and I praise God for that. Being a Calvinist does not negate nor increase one’s possibility of being proud- this is something we all struggle with. Maybe it is something even both of us should look at within ourselves.
But I reject that reformed theology increases people’s pride. That is just a cheap shot. It is illogical. If I believe that God’s elect are purely chosen by God’s choice and mercy (Rom 9) how can I boast- it has nothing to do with me. If however I believe that I am God’s elect because he foreknew what I would choose then I do have room to boast. Being God’s elect was dependent on something I did, something I chose not purely on the mercy and grace of God. I know which one I’d rather be on.

“I have done that because God has proven Himself faithful.”
So you chose God because he was faithful? Did you know he was faithful when you were converted or is that something you grew to understand? I sure didn’t know God was this great faithful God when I was converted. What if you wake up tomorrow and no longer believe God is faithful? What is stopping this from happening? Your faith or God’s faithfulness to you? There is too much reliance on myself in your view Cheryl for me to accept. Doesn’t Jesus say even if he raised a dead person people wouldn’t believe. What constitutes enough evidence to show God is faithful?

“But for Calvinists you can boast that God loves you and doesn’t love a lot of others – at least not with saving love. I can’t say that for God was willing to have saving love for all because He sent Jesus to die for all. You can look around and say that in a crowd of unbelievers that God loved me more than He loved them. I am special to Him for whatever reason. While you may not know the reason why He chose you, the fact that He chose you and you are one of the elite elect chose out of all humanity makes you have lots to boast amongst those that God doesn’t love. Don’t you see how that could cause many like Piper to be prideful?”

I don’t believe that God loves me more than others- reformed theology doesn’t believe that. We believe the Bible. God loves the world (3:16), he doesn’t take pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 18). But God also chose to save some and not others according to his pleasure and his will. It has nothing to do with us or that he loves us more. You are misrepresenting reformed theology saying those sorts of things. Perhaps you should read Calvin! Please don’t also describe Calvinists as some sort of ‘elite’- this is unhelpful. If anything Calvinists affirm the total depravity of ALL people. We all deserve hell and punishment for our sin. I would never boast about being God’s elect because I know I have no place for doing that, I never deserved to be saved in the first place.

1. “The Bible says that repentance is “granted” and God grants repentance to anyone who will fear Him. It is always conditional and it is always dependent on the faithfulness of God to make sure that no one who fears God is left without salvation.”
   This is interesting since you didn’t even deal with the verse I quoted. Let’s look at it
   2Ti 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
   2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
   2Ti 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

I can’t see here that repentance is conditional to those who fear God. In fact isn’t Paul urging Timothy to pray for these men who are described as ‘opponents’ (not God fearers) so that they may come to a knowledge of the ‘truth’. Doesn’t Paul also describe them as captured by the devil and doing the devils will. These people that Pual says to ask God to grant repentance, definitely do not sound like they fear God.

“Mark, why have you been deceived to believe that saving faith is a work in some people when the Scriptures always set faith in opposition to works? Somebody has twisted your head around so that you do not even seen how you flip flop back and forth. “saving faith is a work” and “no, saving faith is not a work”. How could anyone accept Calvinism with this kind of inconsistency and illogical thinking?

You obviously have not understood me at all. Let’s try again. Saving faith is not a work ONLY because it is a gift of God. Once you remove the fact that it is a gift, it no longer is something from God, it is something from man therefore it becomes a work. I am saying the former, you the latter. Faith is opposed to works because it comes from God not man. IF it does not come from God it is from man. Your view( although you say you believe grace alone through faith alone) have made the ‘faith’ part into a man’s work because you deny it is something that God gives us. Do you see the difference. I have stated this several times now. Yes faith is a response, but even a response is a work (because it is something we do) UNLESS it is a gift of God. You are struggling to accept Calvinism because you don’t understand it. That’s why I keep recommending you read Calvin, not me, not any other ‘Calvinists’. Then see if what Calvin saids squares with the Bible.

“Frankly because of the teaching, it is absolutely impossible for anyone to say for sure if they are really one of the elect according to Calvinist doctrine. The only way that they will ever know for sure is if they persevere to the end. So until the day that they die or until the day that Christ comes, they can never really know for sure.”