Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

Cheryl, this is exactly you, because you think it is unfair that God’s ordains all things as you have said before. My guess though is that you have re-interpreted Romans 9 aswell to make it say something it isn’t.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, if God has ordained me to be a non-Calvinist I don’t think it is unfair at all. I am happy and content and I belong to God. Why would I call God unfair to me?

We are told in the bible to make disciples of all nations- to tell all about Jesus. When people reject this they are condemned.

No they are not. They are condemned because God chose them for destruction without any conditions. ‘Apparently He made them to go to hell so it isn’t their rejection of the gospel that sends them there.

We would all be condemned if God by His Spirit did not open our eyes and soften our hearts. By preaching, God’s elect are saved by belief and those who reject the message are condemned.

Actually that isn’t true either. It is according to the Calvinist message that we learn that the elect are that way unconditionally. You can’t now say that their salvation depends on a condition. They were picked unconditionally, remember?

Surely you believe that people are either destined to believe or not, unless of course you hold to some kind of open theology. Even if you are an Arminiam you believe this, because Arminians at least believe in God’s foreknowledge.

Being “destined to believe” is not about God’s foreknowledge. It is about predestination by God’s unconditional election so no I do not believe that people are unconditionally destined to believe.

You said:

Abraham was chosen purely by God’s grace. Moses was chosen purely by God’s grace. So was Isaac, so was Jacob. So was Paul since he was persecuting Christians until God changed him. IT sure wasn’t Paul’s concern for seeking Jesus.

Where does the Bible say that Abraham was chosen purely by God’s grace?

Romans 4:3 (NASB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

It was Abraham’s belief of God that was credited with righteousness. The Bible never says that Abraham’s salvation was only by grace without faith. It was never unconditional.

Moses, Isaac and Jacob were not chosen for salvation. They were chosen for a task. Show me one verse that says that God chose them for salvation unconditionally without faith.

Maybe you can clarify if you at all believe that people are predestined to salvation? Oh I almost forget, it seems Paul thought the Ephesians were predestined to salvation.

I believe in predestination because the Scriptures teach it. But the Scriptures never teach a predestination to salvation of the wicked without the condition of faith. There is a predestination to earthly work but never a predestination to salvation without condition.

Look at John the Baptist. He was predestined to become the fore runner of Christ yet he was not predestined to salvation. He expressed doubt that Jesus was the Messiah.

Luke 7:19 (NASB)
19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?”

You answered my question this way:

1. “Do you really? Do you believe that God can change any person if that person is a reprobate that was chosen from eternity past to be lost?
   Yes I do believ God can change any unregenerate person according to his will and purpose as Paul’s says. IF it is not according to God’s will, then no it will not happen. Everything happens according only to God’s will and mercy not our own as Romans 9 states.

Did you read my question? I asked if God can change a person who has been predestined from eternity past to be lost. Are you saying that God predestines someone unconditionally be lost and then later he conditionally changes that so that they can no longer be lost even when He had decreed them to be lost? That seems awfully weird. Are you sure that you believe that God can contradict Himself?

Ok I see. So you only ask God to ‘create events’ that will bring these people into a certain position. So you ask God for an opportunity to say something, but you don’t actually ask God to open your friends eyes right?

Sure I ask for God to open my friend’s eyes. Remember that the Bible doesn’t call this being “born again”. It is an opening of the eyes so that they can see their condition but it is not bring a dead person to life as a “born again” person. So yes, I regularly pray this way and I am expecting that God will answer yes, because it is His will to save. Unfortunately many whose eyes have been opened by God will refuse to believe by the act of their will. They reject Him with their eyes wide open to the truth.

Final point, I have said and shown you from the bible why I believe God loves all people. Please don’t insistently keep saying God loves some more than others. You are hardly being fair to people who disagree with you. Don’t distort people’s views who disagree with you.

If you follow Calvinism, I know what you believe about love. You believe that God loves all, but He has no saving love for those whom He has predestined to be lost. So while I can preach the gospel and tell all that God loves them and desires that they would be saved, you would not be able to preach that and assure them that Jesus died for their sins. If you actually believed that God loves all in a saving way, you would not be a Calvinist, so I don’t know how you can say I misrepresented you. Point blank – do you believe that God loves all with a saving love?