Mark

“But again I mentioned that Romans 3 is a quote from the OT where the context is the fool who says there is no God. Paul would not illegally use an OT quote to mean the opposite of what God inspired as Paul supported Scripture. He did not twist Scripture to his own use.”

Maybe after John 6 we can go through Romans and actually look at the context right from 1:18 through to the end of chapter 3. Then perhaps you might see Paul’s point in relation to sin. Paul’s argument flows from the pagan world in Chapter 1 to the jews. Just in case the Jews (or you Cheryl) think we are any better, Paul asks a thetoric question “Are we Jews any better off” His answer is NO, because both Jew and Greek are alike…he then quotes from various Psalms to prove his point. It seems plain here that you have not allowed context to determine the use of the quote. There is no hint what so ever that Paul is only addressing ‘the fool who saids there is no God’. Indeed, Paul includes himself in the quote using the 3rd person plural ‘we’. Your exegesis is flawed and wrong. The context in Romans denies the possibility of your interpretation.

I wonder if Calvin had the parable of the sower in mind in the quote you gave. Don’t some grow for a period then die, where as the true seed grows and lives. Sounds biblical to me.

It is interesesting that you do not believe that free-will and God’s sovereignty do not go hand in hand. Let me ask who sold Joseph and sent him to Egypt. OR again, who crucified Christ? With Joseph his brothers by their ‘wills’ sent him off. According to the gospel many people used their ‘wills’ to kill Jesus. But what else does the scripture, since we both want the Bible to speak

“I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. 5 And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.
8 So it was not you who sent me here, but God.

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

So Cheryl, you are wrong. Men were guilty in both cases for their free-will, but clearly in both cases it happened according to God’s sovereign will and plan. This is why it is indeed a ‘mystery’, but the raw facts of the Bible teach the tension.

Pinklight,

I really do want you or Kay or Cheryl to use scripture to show me your doctrines. Rather than just criticising what i am saying, how about you guys share your theology and see how ‘consistent’ with the Bible it is. Kay’s definition of sovereignty is not even in the Bible, mine is. Cheryl didn’t even give her definition, but i assume it follows Kay’s definition by what she wrote. I look forward to yours. No-one has dealt with Romans 8-11, Eph 1 or any other teaching on predestination. All i have heard so far is critiques of mine by humanistic reasoning, not the word of God. If any of you believe that our ‘predestination’ is governed by God’s foreknowledge of what we choose- show me the scriptures which say this. I’m hearing alot of critiques but not much alternatives.