Mark

Kay,

Again let me commend you for addressing Romans 1. Can you state though at what point you disagree with me. Are you saying you agree that Romans 1:18-3:20 should not be used to support total depravity?

Let me ask you to read over the entire pericope, Romans 1:18-3:20

After outlining the Pagan world in chapter 1 Paul opens chapter saying that ‘you’ (Roman Church) therefore have no excuse to judge others, why? Because as Paul says, you who do pass judgement do the SAME THINGS. Here Paul is addressing the ‘gentile’ CHRISTIAN audience of the Roman church because we see in 2:17, he switches to address the Jews about the law.

In chapter 3 Paul asks if there is any advantage in being a Jew then above a gentile, now that Christ has come. By the time we reach verse 9 Paul has concluded that we ought not to increase our unrighteousness in order to increase God’s righteousness.

Verse 9 is extremely important because Paul asks the questions “What shall we say then? Are WE any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written…”

So just in case the Jews think that are somehow more superior than the gentiles or Pagan world, he tells them no. We are all under sin. He then uses various Old Testament quotes (to show the Jews from THEIR scriptures) the nature of them aswell.

Now there is nothing in the surrounding contexts at all to tell us Paul is only addressing people who do not fear God. After all Paul s writing to a CHRISTIAN church not God haters.

Also remember the more immediate context as Paul is addressing the law (2:17-3:20). And we know that no righteousness is obtained from the law. That is why Paul begins in 3:21 to address God’s righteousness found in faith not the law. Paul I sshowing the jews from their scriptures that 1) righteousness is not found in the law and 2) they are no better than the gentiles- that is we are ALL totally depraved.

Therefore application of these chapters is easy. The whole pericope should be understood to apply to all people, because that is Paul’s conclusion. We are all alike under sin. Paul has simply used a gentile argument and then a jewish argument to come to the same conclusion. That is why I reject the claim of Cheryl’s that I am using of these verse out of context. If Paul’s intention is not meant to be understood universally, then of course there is no application to these chapters because it simply applies to these various groups. But since Paul is addressing a congregation of gentile and Jew Christians, and correlating these Christians to Pagan people, and Old Testament people, the conclusion is clear. The Romans are the same, as are we. Total depravity is true and correct.

Again this is a brush through the pericope. You really need to study the context Kay as does Cheryl.