Cheryl Schatz

Mark, you quoted me and then said:

“There is a difference between giving of the person and enabling them to believe.”

I’m not so sure. Look at how the terms are used interchangeably in John 6
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

The NIV translates the last one ‘enabled’. So it appears that the three terms ‘gives’, enables/granted and ‘draws’ mean similar things. They all relate to the father giving to the Son. The first three relate the truth of assurance of salvation. The last one relates back to the third one. To me John 6 shows that these terms are synonomous.

Giving of a person is not the same as granting the ability to come to Jesus. Verse 37 & 39 are talking about those who belong to the Father and verses 44 & 65 are not about a specific people given to Jesus but about the generic drawing that is done with all of mankind.

When you say that “gives” means the same thing as “enabled” and “draws” you have really overstated your case. First of all the Father only “gives” people who belong to Him. But the enabling and the drawing are never said to be done to only those who are already believers in the Father. Jesus Him self said that He would draw all men to Himself. He didn’t say that He would draw all believers in the Father to Himself. To make three separate terms to be synonymous is a grace error and no wonder you had to say “To me John 6 shows that these terms are synonomous.” You can think anything you want to but that doesn’t mean that you an create synonyms between words that deal with different kinds of people. While John talks about “all” as a group that has been promised that they would all come to Jesus, there are others who are drawn but they are not promised that they will come to Jesus. We cannot equate the two groups of people otherwise we would have to say that all people belong to the Father and that is not true. Only believers actually belong to the Father.

“No, not true. We are all commanded to fear God and God is righteous enough to give us the ability to fear Him.”

I like this. It seems you finally admit that it is God who ‘gives’ us the ability to fear Him. You have never admitted that before. You have previously said that Job ‘fearing God’ was from his own free-will.

You greatly misunderstand. Without God granting us the ability to believe and the ability to fear Him, we can do nothing without His enabling. Yet just because God enables us to believe doesn’t mean that we believe. And just because God enables us to fear Him doesn’t mean that we will fear Himn. Job chose to fear God of his own free-will just as we can chose to fear God from our free-will. God has commanded us to fear Him so He enables us to fear Him, but He doesn’t plant a “gift” of fear within us. Enabling gives us the ability and free-will allows us to respond to God with reverent fear.

I guess you have changed your mind. You realise that unregenerate people cannot fear God without his gift to do so.

I have not changed my mind. What I have consistently said is that when God commands something He enables us to obey His command. But just because we have been enabled to do so doesn’t mean that we do it. We still have a responsibility to act with free will on the freedom to fear that God has given us.

So my question is, have you changed your mind? Do you believe that God commands people to do things that He deliberately withholds from them any ability to obey Him? Does God love to mock people by commanding something that they cannot choose to obey? Does He mock them by making sure that they are disobedient by refusing to give them any ability to fear or have faith in Him? Is this the kind of God we serve who is a mocker?