Dave

For someone who was going to give up on this discussion I certainly have a lot to ocntribute. I hope it is helpful! Mark you said, “Problem is, in what sense is God the beginning of Christ? Sounds like a sub-ordination Christology. In what sense is the husband the beginning of his wife?”

In answer to your first question, is The Father not the Father of the Son? Did the Father not send the Son? Was not Jesus concieved through the Holy Spirit? Are these things subordination Christology? Beginning, source, origin are all synonyms and they all accurately describe at some point the relationship between Jesus and the Godhead. Sure, you can go the Grudem line if you like and suggest a passage like Colossians 1:18 and say that it is to do about Jesus’ authority over the church, and yet look at the passage from verse 15…Jesus is the source, the origin, the beginning of all created things, including powers and authority(note that!), he is before all things…he is the head of the church (wonder what that means)…”he is the beginning and the first born from among the dead…”!!!

You can believe what Grudem says when he says that Colossians 2:10 is about Jesus being the authority over all authorities (because head means authority over)…but surely given what has just been said in chap 1 that belittles Jesus. He does not just have authority over all authority, but in 1:16 it has been clearly said that he is the source/origin/beginning of all authority. Why would 2:10 mean anything less?

In answer to your second question, was not Eve taken from Adam? 1 Cor 11:8-9. Was the man not the source, origin and beginning of the woman? Now, before you go silly with this, don’t forget 1 Cor 11:11-12. What do you know…every man after Adam finds their begining, source and origin in woman.

Hmmm.I have a feeling I am going to regret this…