Cheryl Schatz

Mark,

Not true! Moses wrote this and God used him to record what God wanted recorded. It in no ways makes it deceptive. I’m sure you will realise this once you get a chance to do some research on it.

The Watchtower thinks it is okay to rewrite history too. They have done this many times and have excused themselves. Now God is telling a man to rewrite a history account and that is okay? Maybe in Australia, but that doesn’t fly here in Canada.

I just don’t see that the ‘quotes’ have to be the exact words that people spoke. God has provided what he wants us to know.

So God wants us to “know” that it was wrong for Eve not to use His name so He had to put it back in to make sure she looks good? What other conversations did He rewrite? Or what other conversations didn’t even happen, but they have been added into history? Surely if God can add information that wasn’t there before, He can add anything else too. What’s the difference? Maybe when Adam saw Eve he really said “Huh? Um, God, I don’t like this one can you try again?” But God didn’t want that on the record so He changed Adam’s words so that Adam was now delighted with Eve.

If we take this same attitude we could rewrite the New Testament in the same way. Sure Paul wrote to Timothy “I am not permitting a woman to teach or authenteo a man” and God has no problem changing that to say “God is not permitting all women of any kind to teach men in the church or have any authority over men, husbands, or boys.” I mean, if that is what God really wants to say, then why can’t we just add in what He thinks should have been said? The opportunities for corrections are mind boggling. Where do we start and where do we end?

So which gospel is more accurate? Did Matthew quote Jesus properly on the sermon on the mount (Matt 5) or did Luke quote Jesus properly on his sermon on the plain (Luke 6)? Which gospel writer is being the deceptive one since they are not identical? Do you see the logical problem with what you are saying?

You are kidding right? You are trying to tell me that Jesus’ teachings has to be said the same in each place he went? Mark, you are trying so hard to find errors in the Bible as if differences are the same as inaccuracies? Why are you doing this? Is this what happens when one starts to believe that God can inspire people to change accounts and add in words that were not said? Now is the Bible inaccurate everywhere in your understanding? That Matthew or Luke added to what Christ said in His sermons? Do you see why I said that you are showing liberal ideas? If I dismissed Paul and said that I didn’t believe that 1 Timothy 2:12 was in the original but added later by someone who was inspired by God to add in a restriction, wouldn’t you say that I had liberal ideas? Mark, you scare me.

Oh dear Cheryl! What we have is what God wants us to have. He wanted us to have 4 differnet gospels although not identical.

So you are saying that God wants us to have inaccurate accounts? That the words that are quoted have been added to what Jesus said? There are 4 different accounts but they are not contradictory and every single one of them is true without embellishments. But it seems to me that you believe that one or two or more of the gospels were given freedom to change the events and embellish the conversations with details and words that never happened? Mark, my friend, Christians who hold to inerrancy don’t believe in fictitious embellishments that have been inspired by God. We believe that the events really happend and the conversations were brought into remembrance by the Holy Spirit so that they were recorded from the perspective of the author without additions to the conversation.

Just because the words are not identical doesn’t mean it’s a contradiction.

But just because the words are not identical doesn’t mean that some of the words are not what the person said and had to be added to the text.

Actually your view seems contradictory, because the gospels are so different in what they record Jesus saying- again which one is Jesus actual words? Please answer which gospel is closer to depicting Jesus actual words?

This is the voice of unbelief. All of the words are Jesus’ words. You tell me, which words are not those that Jesus spoke? Since I believe all of them are His words, then it is up to you to tell me which words are the words added in afterward?

What i am saying is that Moses recorded what God wanted recorded, so whether these are Eve’s exact words or not is irrelevant to inspiration, because what we have is what God wanted.

Can you give me a verse that says that God wants to add to our words? That God adding to the historical record is not noodling with the text? Please show me from the Scriptures where God says that He does such a thing. Again, if it was I that was saying these things, you would have blown me off a long time ago saying that egalitarians do not believe the Bible and have to accuse God of changing the original account in the area of women in ministry. You would call me a liberal and rightly so.

All i am saying is that we need to keep in mind contextual circumstances (Ancient near Eastern circumstances) and not ignore deliberate Hebrew emphasise which might help us understand the text better.

So God now has to be subject to culture? If the culture thinks it is fine to add to the words of a person, then God should just follow along with the culture and add to Eve’s words? What other words have been added to Adam? What other words have been added to the serpent? And how are you going to determine what words are added if the Bible doesn’t tell you? Is this placing God’s word underneath you and your discernment?

So your happy for people to add to narrative, but not direct quotes?

First of all I don’t know who added Moses’ death. It could have been a prophesy, could have been Miriam who added. It doesn’t claim the author so I don’t know. When Paul and Timothy wrote letters together which words were written by Paul and which ones were written by Timothy? I don’t know, but I do know that if a conversation is quoted and a person adds in words that are not original and claims that these words were original, then that is a lie.

If you don’t trust the quotes why do you trust the narrative? Again please give me your understanding of the gospels!

Please spare me. I don’t trust the quotes? I am not the one who is saying that someone added to Eve’s words. You are. I trust all of the quotes. You are the one who says that the quotes are not necessarily what the person said. You are the one who has the burden of proof to decide who was the one who did the noodling.

This is why i am here. Trying to understand your position. What does male ‘headship’ look like in your opinion?

That has already been discussed on my blog. The issue at hand is the exegesis of 1 Cor. 11.

Seems you against CBMW and am trying to link anything i say to them. Maybe i’m just indoctrinated by the bible?

I am not against the Christians at CBMW. But I do believe that they need to be held accountable for the doctrine that they teach. If you are really just indoctrinated by the Bible, then show me what the Bible says about “superiority” or “authority over” in 1 Cor. 11. Then I will be able to evaluate to see.

By the way i have done an exegesis for you all, and yes i am supposed to be studying, but church history is hard to be excited about. This blog is much more engaging. Do you want me to email it to you Cheryl?

Absolutely! I will then get it up for the next post.

My friend, I am very glad that you find this blog engaging. Thanks! I love talking about the Bible and women issues, etc. I do struggle with the liberal issues where people think that they can judge for themselves what is literally true and what is not quite accurate. There have been egalitarians here who have had that view and I have been upfront with them that if we don’t see the Scriptures as fully inspired as truth but see merely stories that give a general principle but which may not be factually correct, we are going to be deceived. Anytime our own judgment is pitted against the accurate Word, we will steadily lose confidence in the Word. I don’t want to see any precious brother or sister in Christ go down that path. That includes a brother who is an egalitarian or one who is a complementarian. Each is my brother and each needs to watch that they do not listen to the lie of “Hath God said?”

For all reading this post,

Okay, I eagerly await for the exegesis from Mark. Watch out for the next post, because I think that we can have some good discussion/debate. Just make sure that you treat Mark with respect and then away we go to the races!