A. Amos Love

Cheryl

Got some friends in Cnd “A”

They sound just like my friends in Brooklyn NY.

In Cananda they say;”It’s a good day! “A”

In Brooklyn they say; “A” Have a good day” 🙂

Cheryl

Hmmm? Cleaning?

That’s one way to get next to Godliness!! 😉

Help!!!!

Can anyone help me.

Does anyone know, or think they know, or even disagree with,
what I’ve been trying to say about elders/leaders/pastors?

I believe it is a very important part of what is being said here about abuse and those here who have suffered abuse. All? I have.

There is no excuse for abuse.
Physical, domestic, emotional, or spiritual abuse.

It stinketh!!!

Please help, I ain’t been talken good american.

TL

Thanks for the info.

Even with the revision;
Do you know anyone who can qualify to be an “elder/leader/pastor?”

peace

Lin

“But the body only has servants”

Amen… Only servants.
All His disciples called themselves servants.
None called themselves “leaders.”
None called themselves “servant-leader.”

Kay

“So, I am left to wonder –
where are the verses setting up an “authority” structure?”

Oh! there are none… made up by those wanting to lord it over others.
Those wanting power, profit, prestige, recognition, and reputation.

All the things Jesus said we should turn away from.

CLC

“So what do we do with the fact that Christ Himself says
that there is only ONE Shepherd and that He is that Shepherd?”

Amen… The Lord is my shepherd….

Frank

Thanks for taking the time for such a complete rendition of leader/elders.

“Well, Amos, on the basis of all this,
what would you say our proper response to the elders should be?”

Here’s “my” responce “now” to those calling themselves elders today.

Qualifications. Qualifications. Qualifications. Qualifications.
Let me check you out and see if you can live up to the “Qualifications?”
First, are you “Blameless?’ Without fault? Innocent? Unrebukable?
( Frank, please reread comment #29 for blameless.)

Frank, you mention qualifications. I mentioned qualifications.
How important are the qualifications for elder/bishop/leader?

I think you would agree, we are to “know those who labor among us,”
and we are to “test the spirits,” and be “Bereans” and check things out.
The Bible warns us about; false apostles, many false prophets,
false teachers, false Christs, (false anoninted one’s) etc. etc.

I personally have never met anyone who “meets the qualifications”
for an elder/pastor/leader. Have you? I would like to meet them.

If they don’t meet the “qualifications”
then they are a “false” something. Yes?

They “all” are deceiving the people when they assume a place. a “Title”
of “elder/leader” and do not meet the qualifications. Yes?

“Deceiving the people” I think would equate with “practicing heresy.” Yes?

Please reread comments #17 and #20

If “Blameless” doesn’t satisfy some who say we”must” have elders,
then here are a few more qualifications for elder.

The Bible says a bishop, elder, “Must be”…
That’s the same “must be” as; must be born again…

1-blameless — unrebukeable, without fault.
2-husband of one wife — married, male.
3-rules well his own house — have a family, children.
4-not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5-vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
6-sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
7-of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
8-no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
9-not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
10-not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
11-not soon angry — not prone to anger.
12-temperate — having power over, restraining.
13-holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14-just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.

“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”

15-faithful — believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
16-not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
17-an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
18-unruly — disobedient.

That’s a very long and a very tough list. Yes?

If someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride? and thus not without fault?

The Bible talks about elders and qualifications for elders.
Can you have one with out the other?

Frank, do you know anyone who qualifies for “elder/leader?”

Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus.

Frank

You wrote;
“I hope that in my last comment, I did not give anyone the impression that either Dr. Norrington or myself deny the NT teaches that there are leaders in the church, both men and women, designated as “elders” and whose primary functions are described as “overseers” (episkopoi) and “servants, ministers” (diakanoi).”

“Whatever local leaders were required to do,
Christians were to obey them and submit to them.”

I could be wrong.
You seem to be saying, in the church, “elders” are “leaders”
and we are to obey them. Yes?

Then you say;
We don’t have to obey elders/leaders who “practice heresy”
or if they’re “out of line with the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.”

“such leaders are to be respected and honored. But those who teach and practice heresy, who deny the gifting and calling of other Christians, and refuse to train and equip them to be competent ministers of Christ–to such leaders, our response must be, “No! In this case, you are out of line with Scripture and the Holy Spirit.”

Might sound strange;
I’ve never met an “elder/leader” who fulfilled the qualifications of an elder.
Never found one “elder/leader” who made it past the first one, “blameless.”

Bishops “must be” blameless…

Blameless… How important is this word?

Webster’s – Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.

Synonyms – faultless, guiltless, innocent, irreproachable, spotless, unblemished.

Computer – that cannot be reprehended,
(cannot be, rebukable, reprovable, cannot find fault)
not open to censure, irreproachable.

Strongs #423 – anepileptos – inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.

How many, who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering these qualifications,
can see themselves as “blameless,” without fault
and thus qualify to be an overseer, elder?

And if you can see yourself as “blameless;”
Is that pride? And no longer without fault?

This is only one of many qualifications.

The Bible talks about bishops and elders.
And qualifications for bishops and elders.
Can you have one without the other?

So, according to what you said, there is a troubling question.

If someone who says, or thinks, they are an “elder/leader”
and does not fulfill the qualifications of an “elder/leader;”

Wouldn’t that be someone who is “practicing heresy?”
And wouldn’t that be someone who is “out of line with scripture?”

And someone we can say “no” to? Ignore as irelevant?

Leaders = lording it over = abuse = always

Peace and grace.

CLC

You wrote;
“Of course, the pastors want these men to only teach
their women what they want to be taught.
So they set up the hierarchy to ensure that the sheep
remain in THEIR pen,
rather than under the watchful eye of the Good Shepherd.
They proclaim that they can keep the sheep safe from wolves
if only the sheep remain in the little defined walls of the pen.”

Yes CLC, very well said, this has been my experience also.

“hierarchy” even means “sacred ruler.”
from the Greek hierarkh?s, hieros ‘sacred’ + arkh?s ‘ruler.’
Designed by man, I believe to dominate and control others.

Strange, can’t find hierachy in the NT. Hmmm?
No clergy – laity? No leader- follower?
Jesus said,”My Sheep” hear “My Voice” and follow me.
Just brethren? Submitting one to another?
All one in Christ?

In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?

Hmmm? Seems the “so called pastors” have a problem. yes?

Jesus is the head of the body (the ekklesia, the called out one’s) the church?

Religion is the system – Not the relationship.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?

Be blessed and be a blessing.

TL

I’m sorry that you had to go thru that.

Have Mercy Lord… And heal TL’s broken heart. Amen.”

I experienced a measure of the shepherding movement myself.

You can not find words that are offensive enough for me.

How about;
Hateful, detestable, horrible, horrid, unpleasant, awful,
nasty, disagreeable, despicable, objectionable, insufferable,
revolting, loathsome, abhorrent, abominable, execrable,
odious, disgusting, distasteful, obnoxious, offensive,
vile, heinous, ghastly, beastly, godawful.

Leaders = lording it over = abuse = always

It is still going on today in “the church of man” in many places.
Most in “the institutional church” like Pipers,
don’t even know they are being abused.

“Help them Lord, open their eyes to the truth of your word.”

When you tell them, they defend and protect the abuser. What???

Praise God you are delivered from that mess.

Jesus is the only shepherd who totally loves and cares for his sheep.

Thank you Jesus.

CLC

This is how I’m seeing it now. I do reserve the right to be wrong.
I’ve changed my mind a few times after I knew I really knew it all. ;o)

We are warned that some will preach another Jesus.
Do you think some preach another ekklesia?
A false ekklesia, where man is in control and not Jesus in control?

Isn’t Jesus is the head of the body the church?

Didn’t Jesus tell his disciples not to be called Rabbi/teacher?
And do not be called master/leader for you have one leader the Christ.
Matthew 23:1-10

1st Samuel chapter 8 is about God’s people rejecting God’s leadership
for that of a man, A King, to be like the other people.
God was not happy but he gave them what they wanted and said to Samuel;

“they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me,
that “I should not reign over them.”

God’s people did not want God to “reign” over them?

Can you see or think of any differences between
“The Church of God,”
The ekklesia, the called out ones, the people of God.
“and they shall all be taught of God” John 6:45
“ye need not that any man teach you” 1 John 2:27
and
“The Church of Baptist?” (or any institutional corporation called church.)
Steeple Corporation, brick and mortar, institution,
pastors in pulpits preaching to people in pews.

Can you see or think of any differences between
The Kingdom of “God;”
The rule, the “reign,’ the dominion of “God” ruling in a man’s heart.
and
The Kingdom of “Baptist;” (or any institutional corporation that rules.)
The rule, “reign,” dominion of “Baptist” ruling a man?

Didn’t Jesus say, “You can’t serve two masters?”

1-“The Church of God,” (the ekklesia, us,) is purchased with His blood.

1-“The Church of Baptist” (or what ever name) (Church of Man, Lutheran, etc)
purchases us with things that are of the world. Fear, flattery, security, friends,
sense of belonging, etc. Those things that feed the flesh.
Power, profit, prestige, salary, retirement, flattery, invitations to speak, titles, etc.

2-“The Church of God” is built and added to by Jesus. It’s His body.
I will build my church… Matthew 16:18
And the Lord added to the church daily those who should be saved. Acts 2:47

2-“The Church of Baptist” is built by man.
With programs, seminaries, conventions, crusades, tithes and offerings sermons,
guilt and commitment sermons, bring your neighbor to church sermons,
submission to authority sermons, etc.

3-“The kingdom of God” comes not with observation, it is “within” hidden.
It is the rule, the “reign,” the dominion, the goverment of God in one’s heart.
This government shall be upon Jesus’ shoulders.

3- “The kingdom of Baptist” is “without,” names on church buildings,
schools, credentials, diplomas, business cards, phone books, websites
written “I believes,” rules and regulations, how to dress, how to speak,
where it can be “seen.”

“…let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven;
and let us make us a name…” Gen 11:9

It is the rule, the “reign,” the dominion, the goverment of Baptists.
This government shall be upon Southern Baptists Conventions shoulders.

4- In “The Church of God” you serve one master, Jesus, and we are one, bretheran.
The Lord is our shephered and we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
None call themselves leader or shepherd. All are one in Christ, bretheran.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16

There is, One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd.

4- In “The Church of Baptist” you serve many masters,
some more equal than others.
You have hierarchy, local leaders, youth leaders, church leaders,
board leaders, district leaders, denominational leaders.
You have, leaders – followers, clergy – laity, shepherds – sheep,
And you have separation. You have some lording it over others.
You have the beginning of spiritual abuse.

There are many voices – many shepherds – many leaders.

5- When “the Church of God” comes together, meets,
everyone can participate. And is expected to participate.
Everyone is needed to participate for the building up of the body.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine,
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:26

5- When “The Church of Baptist” meets,
only a few participate. Pastors, elders, “so called” leaders,
choirs, ushers, sunday school teachers, etc.
Most in this meeting are spectators, pew sitters,
expected to pay, pray and obey.

Have they rejected God, that God should not “reign” over them?

For “the leaders” of this people cause thee to err;
and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Isaiah 9:16

O my people, “they which lead thee” cause thee to err,
and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isaiah 3:12

My people hath been lost sheep:
“their shepherds” have caused them to go astray…
Jeremiah 50:6

Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
neither let me give flattering titles unto man.
For I know not to give flattering titles…
Job 32:21

Do titles become idols
and pastors become masters?

CLC

“The church has been corrupted with leadership roles.”

Much agreement with this statement. Let me add;

“The Church of God” The ekklesia of God,
Jesus is the head of the body (the ekklesia, the called out one’s) the church,
is doing just fine. NOT corrupted.

But, the church of man, the religious system, the institutional church,
I believe has been totally corrupted for 1700 years.

Frank

Sounds like a book I’d like. “To preach or not to preach.”

Todays sunday morning meeting is a far cry from
what we see in scripture.

The whole “Religious System” is a far cry from
what we see in scripture.

I’d like to question the use of the word “leader.”

The word “leader”seems like a “high place.” Yes?
Jesus always took and recommended the “low place.”
Jesus humbled Himself, made himself of no reputation
and took on the form of a servant. Php 2:7

Jesus in Mat 23:10 told His disciples “NOT” to call
themselves master/“leaders”
for you have one master/”leader” the Christ.

King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master, even Christ.

The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.

Phillips Modern English –
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.

Today’s English Version –
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.

The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.

Jesus told His disciples not to be called “leaders” and none did.

Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant

His disciples all called themselves “servants,”
none called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.

If someone calls themself a “leader”
or thinks they are a “leader;”

Are they a “disciple of Christ?”

Just wondering. Be blessed.

gengwall – Hi

Wasn’t thinking about Cheryl or those who have ministries.
Thinking about those who run 501 (c) (3) non profit,
tax deductible corporations, and call those corporations
“The Church of God.” AAARRRRGGGHHH!!

Silly me, I thought I was ‘the ekklesia of God” and Jesus was my head.
And Jesus is your head. And Jesus is Cheryl’s head…. and etc… etc….

Did Jesus shed His blood for a building, an organization, an institution,
a denomination, a business, a corporation???

No… Jesus shed His blood, for you and me, “The Ekklesia of God”
People, God’s people, not religion. Glory to God!!!!

Open to other suggestions about “The Religious System” run by man.
How would you describe “The Religious system and leaders” of our day?
Jesus called them vipers, white walled sepulchers full of dead mens bones, love the best seats at the feasts, of their father the devil.

I thought I was being reserved only calling them;

Corrupt

1- evil or morally depraved

2- in a state of decay; rotten or putrid : a corrupt and rotting corpse.

3- debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.

4- having errors introduced.

5- cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain

6- cause to become morally depraved

7- contaminate

8- change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations

Do you have a good accurate discription?

Love and peace….

What if “the whole religious system” for 1700 years,

is totally corrupt?

Hmmm?

Ladies

I hurt for you, and the struggles with this abomination of “abuse.”

I love your reasonings and your responce to the foolishness of Piper.

Here is my pain with him and others that call themselves “leaders”
and heap tons of “spiritual abuse” on the “Bride of Christ.”

Here are some hard questions to ask about “The Religious Sytem.”

Piper calls himself a pastor. Hmmm?

In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?

Every titled “pastor” I’ve met also had the “title” reverend.
Can’t find that one in the KJV either; Can you?

If no one in the Bible is “called or has the title” “pastor”
don’t I help “perpetrate a myth” that is not in the Bible
and help “the traditions of men” make the Word of non effect
when I call or refer to someone as “pastor?”

Do you see other problems that Piper has?
Is he deceived?

He probably thinks he is an leader/elder as many do.
Jesus told His disciples “not” to be called leaders and none did.

Matthew 23:10
King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters:
for one is your Master, even Christ.

The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.

Phillips Modern English –
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.

Today’s English Version –
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.

The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader ) the Christ.

His disciples referred to themselves as servants.
Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant

His disciples all called themselves servants,
none called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.

Titles become idols and
pastors become masters.

Peace

Leaders? Hmmm?

Is that a truth for “the body of Christ”
which is not of this world?
Or is that a tradition of men?
Or a tradition of the worlds system?

A movement or a corporation
probable does need leaders.
But “the body of Christ?”

I thought Jesus already had the position locked up.
Or does He need some help? Ishmael anyone?

There seems to be this tremendous
emphasis on leaders, five fold ministry,
apostles and prophets and the rest.

Where is the sitting at his feet movement?
The forsaking all and serving Him movement?
The entering to His rest movement?
The ceasing from our own works movement?
The letting God build His Church movement?

I’ve tried a lot of the movements.
Now when I’m looking for a movement
I eat a box of prunes.

I’m worn out with all the movements.
I’d like to and am laboring to enter into his rest.
Enter into His arms and hear how much
He loves me just the way I am.
Warts and character defects and all.

What would happen if… ?
we had no human leaders in the ekklesia?
What would “the body of Christ” look like?
Would there be a lot less abuse?
A lot less confusion?
A lot less division?

Would Jesus still be the head?

Over 2000 denominations? Hmmm?
Who’s idea was that?

Oh yea, how silly of me.
Wasn’t it leaders? Who thought they had a better idea?

Have you considered the ant?

An ant is small and insignificant.
Or is it?

Go to the ant, thou sluggard;
consider her ways, and be wise:
Which having
no guide,
overseer,
or ruler,
Provideth her meat in the summer,
and gathereth her food in the harvest.
Proverbs 6:6-9

Guide – 07101 qatsiyn from 07096
KJV – ruler 4, prince 4, captain 3, guide 1
1- chief, commander, dictator.
2- ruler (of one in authority)

Overseer – 07860 shoter {sho-tare’}
KJV – officers 23, ruler 1, overseer 1; 25
1- official, officer.

Ruler – 04910 mashal {maw-shal’}
KJV – rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8,
dominion 7, governor 4, 81
1-to rule, have dominion, reign
2- to exercise dominion.

Isaiah 3:12
…O my people, they which lead thee
cause thee to err,
and destroy the way of thy paths.

Isaiah 9:16
For the leaders of this people
cause them to err;
and they that are led of them are destroyed.

Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep:
their shepherds have caused them to go astray…

Jesus took the time to tell his disciples
not to be called master/leader. Mt 23

The Interlinear Bible-
Nor be called leaders,
for one is your leader the Christ.

Phillips Modern English-
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only one leader, Christ.

Today’s English Version-
nor should you be called leader.
your one and only leader is the Messiah.

The Amplified-
you must not be called masters ( leaders )
for you have one master ( leader )
the Christ.

If Jesus told His disciples not to be called master/leader
and someone calls them self a leader or thinks they are a leader;
are they a disciple of Christ?

If that is our options, “Disciple of Christ” or ‘leader”
Which one do you choose?

Titles become idols and
pastors become masters.

In His Service. By His Grace.

Mara
Thanks for the referral.
“The way church ought to be?”
Bob Lund says some thoughtful things.
and the book has many quotes from other authors.

“Where in the New Testament do you find the same man – who
(1) preaches every Sunday,
(2) marries people,
(3) brings a message over a corpse,
(4) then buries it with a prayer,
(5) visits old ladies,
(6) says prayers over football games,
(7) CEO’s a church,
(8) presides over elders and deacons,
(9) is virtually always in a dress suit,
(10) speaks strangely and prays funny,
(11) baptizes new converts,
(12) and whose office and all the above practices are supposed to be based solidly on the Word of god and found in Scripture.”

“As the Church Fathers attempted to cope with the various pagan philosophies that threatened the church from without and the heresies that were popping up with within, they resorted to establishing a hierarchical structure as their solution. “Hierarchy” comes from two Greek words meaning, “rule by priest.” Thus, in doing this, Church Fathers neatly and permanently divided God’s people into two castes: laity and clergy. We have lived with this caste system ever since, even though the Bible teaches otherwise.”

Today, when I here The word “Church.” Oy vey!

Who knows what it means?

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition…
Mark 7:13

Hmmm? A simple word, church?
What do most people understand the word “church” to mean?

Building with a steeple?
Is that in the Bible?

Pastor in a pulpit preaching to people in pews?
Is that in the Bible?

That’s what the world thinks,
the unbeliever, isn’t it?

Isn’t that what the so called “local church”
has accomplished with four buildings on
four corners in a lot of “local towns?”

Haven’t we deceived the people
we’re supposed to be reaching out to?

How many will know that “The Church of God?”
The ekklesia of God? The called out one’s of God?

Are the habitation of God? Where He dwells?

The redeemed of the Lord? By His blood.

The body of Christ? Purchased with His blood.

The Israel of God?

And Jesus is the head of the body the church?

Does God dwell in buildings made with
the hands of men? Or does He dwell in us?

Did Jesus shed His blood for;
a building, a denomination, an institution,
an organization, a corporation?
Should we call a corporation, The Church?

Will people know that “The Church of God?”

Are kings and priests unto God?

The bride of Christ?

The servants of Christ?

The sons of God?
Led by the spirit? Or led by man?

Disciples of Christ?
Learners and students of Christ?

Ambassadors for Christ?

How many will know, in the Bible,
no one ever went to church?

How many will know, in the Bible,
you become “the Church?”
And hear His voice? And follow Him?

Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee.
Deuteronomy 4:36

Thanks again and – Be blessed.

There is no excuse for abuse.

Never? No, Never.

Ladies, ladies, please relax, calm out, and enjoy some peace,
and let me be mad, annoyed, cross, vexed, irritated, indignant,
irked, furious, enraged, infuriated instead. { ; o )

Pastors? Hmmm? Do they really believe the Bible?
Or has “the traditions of men” made the word of God of non effect?
Can they even qualify as an elder/overseer? Blameless…. WOW!!!
These folks think they are “blameless,” without fault,
not open to censure, unrebukeable.

Yep. That’s what “blameless” means. You can look it up.

Complementarinism – Egalitarianism. Hmmm?
Can’t find those words in my KJV. Are they in modern versions?
Do you ever wonder; Is that the only two options?
What if there is another option?

What is popular is not always truth.
What is truth is not always popular.

Where in the NT does Jesus say that men are leaders in the church?
He told His disciples not to be called leaders, and none did.
Where does Jesus say that men have authority in the church?
Didn’t Jesus tell His disciples not to be called teacher or leader? Mat 23
Didn’t Jesus tell His disciples not to exercise authority like the gentiles?

Do they even know what the word “church” means?
They say, “my Church,” “my flock,” constantly. Hmmm?
“Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”

Where in the NT does it say Jesus shed His blood for;
a building, an organization, an institution,
a denomination, a business or a corporation.

No, Jesus purchased “The Church of God” with His blood.
It’s “His Church,” and “His flock” only.
People, you and me, brethren, called out one’s. { ; o )

No human leaders, He’s our leader. That’s what he said.
Pastors, elders, theologins, denominations, institutions.
Aren’t they the windmills that we joust with?
Mythical giants in a mythical land.
Isn’t Jesus the head of the body the church? Not man?

If you’re in a denominational system; is there male and female?

If you’re in Christ; is there male and female? Hmmm?

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28 KJV

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free,
there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28 ASV

There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free,
there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28 NRSV

Does this verse say male and female are equal?

Or does this verse say that male and female
have put down their “titles” and “identity”
with this world system.

And does this verse say male and female do not exist in Christ?
“for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Is our new identity ”one?”

For as the body is “one,” and hath many members,
and all the members of that one body, being many,
are one body: so also is Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:12

That they all may be “one;” as thou, Father,
art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21

If you’re in Christ; is there male and female? Or is there “one?”
AsOnetarinism? Hmmm?

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16

One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd.
If Not Now, When?

Cheryl – Wow!!! This stuff is good stuff.

Jousting with windmills. Mythical giants and all. Love it.

And believe it or not I have some questions. : o )
Please don’t banish me. God loves me. xoxoxox

Does anyone here belong to D.A.M.?
Mothers Against Dyslexia.

What would a rabbi with dyslexia
from Brooklyn say about these discussions?

Yo!

Dyslexia – a general term for disorders that involve
difficulty in learning to read or interpret words,
but that do not affect general intelligence.

Does the ekklesia, His disciples, suffer with dyslexia?
Do they have difficulty in learning
to read or interpret words? Hmmm?

The Bible warns us about – the commandments of men
the philosophies of men – and the traditions of men
that make the Word of God of non effect.
Mk 7:14

Traditions of men??? AAAHHHHRRRRGGGGG!!!!
(Leaders, bah humbug) (Messing everything up.)
Are they spreading the commandments of men?

I have been asked to leave, when I asked questions about this one.

Men wanting to be in control said,
when Jesus ascended on high He gave gifts to men
and “these elders” were God’s gift to me.
They would call them asention gifts. Oy vey!

No kidding, “my elders” they really said this.
How very very funny. How very arrogant. How very deceived.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
Rom 1:22

Has anyone ever met an elder/shepherd/leader/overseer
who fullfils the qualifictions for a bishop/elder?

Really, Can you have elders without the qualifications?
Hmmm? Just another windmill?

Dyslexia – dyslexia – dyslexia – everywhere. AAAHHHHRRRGGG!!!

When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,
and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:8

And he gave some,
apostles; and some,
prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some,
pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:11

Have you ever looked at the “some?”

Who does the “some” refer to?
No really, do you know who “some” refers to?

Does the “some” refer to the saints?
Does the “some’ refer to apostles?

Did he give “some” saints, apostles?
And “some” saints, prophets?
And “some” saints, evangelists?
And “some” saints, pastor – teachers?

Or did He give “some”
apostles,
prophets,
evangelists,
pastors – teachers
to “all” the saints?
to “some” saints?

Does every congregation
get all five, or is it four in Greek?
an apostle,
a prophet,
an evangelist,
and a pastor – teacher?

Do all the saints get to learn
from “some” apostles?
Or, only “some” saints?

When you’re in a room
or better yet a congregation,
with an apostle,
and a prophet,
and a evangelist,
and a pastor – teacher,
Who is the leader?
Who submits to who?
Who submits to God?
Is the pastor – teacher in last place?

If they are titles and not functions of the body
does the pastor submit to the evangelist?
the evange….

My brain hurts….

If there are over 500,000 pastors in this country;
Where are the apostles and prophets?

If there are no apostles and prophets;
why are there still pastors?

In the Bible, How many people are… called pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?

When did pastor become a title? A profession?

Sorry, please forgive me.
I haven’t found anyone who could answer these questions
in a reasonable manner and I can’t stop.
New ones keep popping up.

Why does the body of Christ suffer from spiritual dyslexia?

Why does the ekklesia, His disciples, have
difficulty in learning and interpreting words?

Could it be our leaders/teachers/elders teaching man’s traditions?

Mark 7:13
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,
and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jeremiah 17:5

Just wondering and wandering.
Keep dreaming the impossible dream.

Ooops – the other link was removed. Found this one very moving.
I hope you like it.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9y9t5_2003-tony-awards-impossible-dream_music

To dream … the impossible dream …
To fight … the unbeatable foe …
To bear … with unbearable sorrow …
To run … where the brave dare not go …
To right … the unrightable wrong …
To love … pure and chaste from afar …
To try … when your arms are too weary …
To reach … the unreachable star …

This is my quest, to follow that star …
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far …
To fight for the right, without question or pause …
To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause …

And I know if I’ll only be true, to this glorious quest,
That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
when I’m laid to my rest …

And the world will be better for this:
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach … the unreachable star …

Listen… Could this be Jesus singing to you?

When you’re weary, feeling small,
When tears are in your eyes, I will dry them all;
I’m on your side. when times get rough
And friends just cant be found,
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down.
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down.

When you’re down and out,
When you’re on the street,
When evening falls so hard
I will comfort you.
I’ll take your part.
When darkness comes
And pain is all around,
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down.
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down.

Sail on silver girl,
Sail on by.
Your time has come to shine.
All your dreams are on their way.
See how they shine.
If you need a friend
Im sailing right behind.
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will ease your mind.
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will ease your mind.

Cheryl – pinklight – Anca – Pat M. – Kay – Alison – Dave – Frank – davidbmc.
I do enjoy and respect your abilities to reason and put it in writing.

I do have to read some posts two or three times before it sinks in. LOL

“They do not receive all the gifts that women do and if they are forbidden to receive part of God’s gifts,
then is there something wrong with them?”

Men get the benifit of only half the gifts. ouch!!! Darts!!!

Where’s my shield… of faith?

Seriously…

It’s quite a battle you’ve entered into. Against quite a foe.

“We can’t go into the promised land – there are giants in the land”

You are certainly well armed with info and persistance.

I do have some questions…

Remembering that “We wrestle not against flesh and blood.”

Are the giants you battle real?

And is this the real promised land you’re trying to enter?
or an imagination?

Are you jousting with windmills? A mythical giant in a mythical land?

Some principles of warfare are;

Do you know your enemy and the enemy’s terrain?

And what will be your “evidence procedure” to determine victory?

How will you know if you’ve won? And what have you won?

Not that there is anything bad about jousting
with windmills and mythical giants.

Great practice and fun. One of my favorite hobbies.

You’ll also enjoy being a dragon slayer.

Thought this song would be a blessing to you all
as you battle those windmills and giants.

What is the impossible dream that you dream?

What is the unrightable wrong?

What is the glorious quest?.

Hint…You might ask God before you answer.

Writing them down is good.

To dream … the impossible dream …
To fight … the unbeatable foe …
To bear … with unbearable sorrow …
To run … where the brave dare not go …
To right … the unrightable wrong …
To love … pure and chaste from afar …
To try … when your arms are too weary …
To reach … the unreachable star …

This is my quest, to follow that star …
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far …
To fight for the right, without question or pause …
To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause …

And I know if I’ll only be true, to this glorious quest,
That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
when I’m laid to my rest …

And the world will be better for this:
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach … the unreachable star …

Be blessed and be a blessing.

Cheryl – pinklight – Anca – Pat M. – Kay – Alison – Frank – davidbmc.
I do enjoy and respect your abilities to reason and put it in writing.

I do have to read some posts two or three times before it sinks in. LOL

“They do not receive all the gifts that women do and if they are forbidden to receive part of God’s gifts,
then is there something wrong with them?”

Men get the benifit of only half the gifts. ouch!!! Darts!!!

Where’s my shield… of faith?

Seriously…

It’s quite a battle you’ve entered into. Against quite a foe.

“We can’t go into the promised land – there are giants in the land”

You are certainly well armed with info and persistance.

I do have some questions…

Remembering that “We wrestle not against flesh and blood.”

Are the giants you battle real?

And is this the real promised land you’re trying to enter?
or an imagination?

Are you jousting with windmills? A mythical giant in a mythical land?

Some principles of warfare are;

Do you know your enemy and the enemy’s terrain?

And what will be your “evidence procedure” to determine victory?

How will you know if you’ve won? And what have you won?

Not that there is anything bad about jousting
with windmills and mythical giants.

Great practice and fun. One of my favorite hobbies.

You’ll also enjoy being a dragon slayer.

Thought this song would be a blessing to you all
as you battle those windmills and giants.

What is the impossible dream that you dream?

What is the unrightable wrong?

What is the glorious quest?.

Hint…You might ask God before you answer.

Writing them down is good.

To dream … the impossible dream …
To fight … the unbeatable foe …
To bear … with unbearable sorrow …
To run … where the brave dare not go …
To right … the unrightable wrong …
To love … pure and chaste from afar …
To try … when your arms are too weary …
To reach … the unreachable star …

This is my quest, to follow that star …
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far …
To fight for the right, without question or pause …
To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause …

And I know if I’ll only be true, to this glorious quest,
That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
when I’m laid to my rest …

And the world will be better for this:
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach … the unreachable star …

Be blessed and be a blessing.

Parden me ladies. You all have a male listening. { ; o (….

You are using the word “men” and “church” alot.

“”Or maybe “the presence of men” makes the situation ungodly,
because only with their presence we have “church”?”“

The “men” with which “church” are you having a problem with?

Let’s see…. We have –
The Traditional Church,
The Institutional Church,
The Religious System Church,
The Steeple Corporation Church,
The 501c3, non profit, tax deductible,
Religious Corporation Church,
The Brick and Mortar Church,
The Pastor Led Church,
The Multiple Elder Led Church,
The Congregational Led Church,
The Pope Led Church,
The Bishop Led Church,
The Chief Executive Apostle Led Church,
There really is a Chief Executive Apostle
No Kidding. Saw it with my own eyes.
The Fluid Church,
The Solid Church,
The House Church,
The Simple Church,
The Organic Church,
The Small Group Church,
The Institutional Church,
Oh, i said that one already.
The Denominational Church,
The Non-Denominational Church,
The Inter – Denominational Church,
The Intra – Denominational Church,
The Underground Church,
The Full Gospel Church,
The Mega Church,
The Baptist Church,
The Lutheran Church,
The Evangelical Church,
The Charis maniacle ism Church,
The Pente it’s going to cost you a L ot ism Church,

If I missed any please help me.

The First Church of
The Pleasant Parables
of The Presence of God Church,
and we believe that
Proper
Preparation
Precedes
Powerful
Performance so we
Pray a lot.

Yea, That’s “MY Church.” Started by my uncle.
He than formed a denomination
and made me, his loving nephew,
second in command and gave me a title.

His Holiness,
The Most Holy Right Reverend,
Father Amos.

Yes, My Church,
Oh no,
Am I in competition with God?

Isn’t Jesus the head of the body the church?
Purchased with His own blood?

Church = Ekklesia – A calling out, called out one’s, people of God.

Church – Ekklesia – The habitation of God.

God that made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,
dwelleth not in temples made with hands.
Acts 17:24

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:16

Did Jesus shed his blood for an institution, an organization,
a denomination, a business or a corporation? Hello!!!

He purchased His Church, His ekklesia, YOU, people,
With His precious blood.

“Is it a sin for women to teach men in church?’

Can it be a sin if it’s impossible to do?

Is there anything in the Bible about
pastors in pulpits preaching to people in pews?

I will build my church

the Lord added to the church

great fear came upon all the church

great persecution against the church

Saul, he made havock of the church,
entering into every house

they assembled themselves with the church

Herod the king stretched forth his hands
to vex certain of the church

and had gathered the church together

And being brought on their way by the church

they were received of the church

set them to judge who are least esteemed
in the church. Hmmm? Must be a miss print.

If therefore the whole church
be come together into one place

Christ is the head of the church. Hmmm? Jesus is my head?

Christ also loved the church,
and gave himself for it. Hmmm? Jesus loves me, His church?

feed the church of God,
which he hath purchased
with his own blood. Hmmm? Jesus owns me?

gave him to be the head
over all things to the church. Hmmm?

the church is subject unto Christ. Hmmm?
I have to answer to Jesus only?

he is the head of the body, the church. Hmmm?

I dare you to teach “in” me, His ekklesia.
God loves me and forgives me all my sin.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16

There shall be, One Fold, One Shepherd, One Voice.
If Not Now, When?

In His Service. By His Grace.

Ladies, ladies, you’re having too much fun.

Can I say something in the defense of men and toilet seats?

Nah! Can’t wait. Impatient man that I am I’ll just do it.

Sorry, if I don’t do it now I might forget to take the garbage out.

And by the way, how come when you use my tools
you never put them back where I can find them? Huh?

In the defense of men – It’s not really our fault.

It’ God’s fault. No really, it is, it is.

The Bible says when God operated on Adam,
“He caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam,”
It never says He woke him up again.

But keep on trying, please.

Please forgive us.
And forgive us. And forgive us. And forgive us. And forgive us.

Maybe we’re this way because you need the practice? Well? Huh?
See, it’s really your fault. Just as long as it’s not my fault. Whew…

All things do work together for good….

Love and peace.

P.S. – I’m neither Complementarian nor egalitarian.

Oh man. These words make my spell checker crazy.
There has to be another option.

P. P. S. Wow, My anti-spam word is Adam. Go figure.
Is that a sign or something.

Nuts, tried to post and the wi-fi quit.
Now my anti-spam word is friend. That works. See ya.

Cheryl – pinklight – Anca – Pat M. – Kay – Alison

<<<<>>>>
You ladies rock. You guys are okay too.

Your questions and your reasoning; priceless.
But my brain hurts. I’ll have to read them again.
Or maybe not. ; o )

You can teach me anytime. Already learned some stuff.
Ooops, am I in sin? Learning from women?

Let’s see, am I in Church or out of Church? Hmmm?

I’m in a Barns and Nobel. (free wi-fi and soft chairs – praise you Jesus)
Lots of books about Jesus and coffee but no pulpits, pews or pastors.
Plenty of Bibles but no steeple. I pray a lot here, does that count?

Wait a minute, isn’t Jesus the head of the body the Church?
So, I’m a member of the body…
I’m in Christ. I’m in the body. Does that mean I’m in Church?

Church, ekklesia, doesn’t that refer to people,
called out one’s, assembly? Where two or three are gathered?

Does Church, ekklesia, ever refer to a building, an organization
an institution, a business or a corporation with a pastor? Hmmm?

Doggone it! Yes – I am the Church.

God that made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,
dwelleth not in temples made with hands.
Acts 17:24

…for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and
I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:16

Lets see, God is in me, God is in women. Hmmm?
The same spirit that raised Christ is in me?
The same spirit that raised Christ is in women? Hmmm?

Jesus said, “ the spirit of truth will teach you all truth. Hmmm?

Hey, is their any law against the spirit in you teaching me?

No, No, No, Now you have me doing it. It’s hard to stop.
My brain hurts again.

“complimentarians and egalitarians” sounds like lawyer speak to me.
And you know what Jesus thought about lawyers.
All that gnat and camel stuff… There is got to be another option.
Sounds like a seminary thought them up. That’s not to critical, Is it?

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16

There shall be, One Fold, One Shepherd, One Voice.
If Not Now, When?

In His Service. By His Grace.