Here is the introduction to my DVD set on youtube:

It shows how the underlying values in researching this topic must be fully Biblical and done in a methodical and respectful way.

The NASB where the term “rule” is show for both:

Genesis 1:26 (NASB95)
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Heidi,
I would refer you to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon which is listed as the world’s most comprehensive and authoritative dictionary of ancient Greek. Here they give two meanings of the term hypotasso (subject) which fit very well with the head/body term of Christ and the Church.

II. post in the shelter of, draw up behind…underlie, to be implied in or associated with, …of the content or meaning which underlies a writer’s words

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (Rev. and augm. throughout) (1897). Oxford; New York: Clarendon Press; Oxford University Press.

In Ephesians 5:21 the grammar is reciprocal as submission is a Christian attitude. Paul then goes on to show that husband and wife like the church and Christ are one with the head joined to the body. How is the church to be with Christ? They are to be joined to Him, sheltered by Him, associated with Him in everything because the purpose of the body is to be in unity. Christ takes the shelter and protection so far as to be the Savior of the body. The emphasis on head/body is one of unity, protection and oneness. It is not an emphasis of government, authority and putting on in their place. The place of the Christian is to conform them self to Christ so that there is unity in the body and the head gives up everything for the body so that the body is placed in oneness and in unity with our head. In the end we know that we will rule and reign with Christ as we are united to Him in His rule.

It cannot be any clearer that we are to be united to Christ not placed under His feet. We ARE His body and His flesh, and we will rule with Him.

I’m not sure where the term co-leader came from, but I can not find it in my bible.

The term is co-ruler:

Genesis 1:26 (NKJV)
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

If God said that both male and female were to rule, then we should have no problem in accepting God’s will.

As I have said many times, wives are to willingly submit to their husbands in love and in respect. But it is not one way nor is it for women alone. It is a Christian practice to be submissive, gentle and loving. This is how Jesus lived His life and all of us are to follow Him.

I wish you would get a copy of my DVD because you should be able to clearly see that Paul’s quoting from the oral law of the Jews is completely opposite to the command of Paul that all should prophesy in the church and not be silent. There were men who were silencing the women in the church and Paul said that it was his command that should be followed, not the commandments of men.

It is because we care so much about God’s Word that we want to be careful in how we handle it, not to rip it from its context, but to carefully and diligently present ourselves approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2 Tim. 2:15)

Paul’s words in 1 Cor. 14 show that all are allowed to speak out with God’s gifts especially to prophesy and that command is indeed a commandment of the Lord. Those who would silence women and stop them from using their God-given gifts are not approved of the Lord and their commands contradict the clear commandment of Paul at the beginning of chapter 14.

Read, research and pray. God’s Word is worth delving into in depth, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

TaWanda,

If the term ezer (English helper) means “subservant” than God is our “subservant” since He is called an ezer to mankind. We must not use the inspired words of Scripture and reinterpret them as God said what He meant. He never used a word that meant subservant. Instead of being a servant to Adam (or subservant as you indicated) Eve was created to be an equal ruler with Adam and these inspired words are from God Himself.

Genesis 1:27–28 (NASB95)
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

If you can show me the Hebrew word that means “subservant” then we can have a look at it, but “helper” (ezer) is not such a word. I recommend that you have a look at the inspired Hebrew words from a good lexicon to help wash away the tradition of man that makes God’s creation of woman to be a subservant of man.

Paul never once said that the husband has rule over the wife neither does he ever tell the husband to take rule over her. These are foreign ideas to the inspired Scriptures. If God had meant to say that, He would have because He is a God who says what He means.

The inspired Scriptures make it clear that women too are to rule over their homes and as equal rulers they have leadership.

1 Timothy 5:14 (NKJV)
14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

The term “manage the house” is the Greek word oikodespoteo and it means “to be master of a house or head of a family,” Liddell, Scott, Jones Lexicon.

Just as Adam and Eve were to rule over the earth, so the husband the wife rule over the home and there is equal responsibility and equal accountability.

I hope this helps!

Heidi,
Welcome to my blog.

It seems to me that you think that we believe that women are not to give their husband’s respect. I for one believe that it is healthy to honor my husband and do good for him just as he honors me and does good for me. However I also believe that it is clear in the Scriptures that there is only one master and that is the Lord Jesus. It is obedience to the one master, the Lord Jesus, that brings me blessings in my life. I believe that living a life of having two masters will take away the priority of Jesus since the Bible says that no one can have two masters.

There is no connection whatsoever between joint leadership of the husband and wife (and joint honoring and serving one another) with homosexuality. One is sin and the other is a part of our service to the Lord Jesus and is not sinful. If you can find one list of sins that list a woman’s godly leadership in the home as sin, then we can have a look at it. I have never seen it.

Don,
Excellent point!

Kristen,
Good words of encouragement from a heart of love! Thanks.

TaWanda,

Jesus in His Deity is completely equal with the Father and there is no authority of one person over another in the Trinity. As man He submitted to the Father as an example of the submission that we are to give the Father. But the Bible never once says that the Father took authority of Christ nor that the husband is to take authority over the wife.

Submission is a Christ-like attitude that we are all to have one to another. It is a loving attitude that we willing give, not of compulsion that is required when a person take authority over another, but a submission out of love, just as Jesus submitted to the Father out of love.

The error comes when one adds the teaching about authority as some have stated that the Son does not have equal authority in the Trinity to the extent that these teachers teaching eternal subordination of the Son teach that Jesus does not have equal worship with the Father and Jesus is not to be prayed to as they teach only the Father receives prayer. This degrades Jesus and makes Him as less than equal in the Trinity.

I hope this helps.

foggy, welcome to my blog!

While the meaning can mean to preserve through something, unfortunately this would make Paul to be one who gave out a false promise for many godly, faithful women were not kept safely through child bearing as many of these godly women died giving birth. This is why I pressed on to find the meaning from the passage itself that would bring a true promise not a false one. I also believe that one cannot understand verse 12 without understanding verse 15 as verse 15 is the conclusion to the prohibition.

TaWanda, God sent the judges to deliver Israel from her enemies. It wasn’t just during Deborah’s time that the people were guilty of doing as they pleased. There was a continual cycle of the people going after their own ways and then God would raise up a Judge. Judges 2:16-19 describes it this way:

Judges 2:16–19 (NASB95)
16 Then the LORD raised up judges who delivered them from the hands of those who plundered them.
17 Yet they did not listen to their judges, for they played the harlot after other gods and bowed themselves down to them. They turned aside quickly from the way in which their fathers had walked in obeying the commandments of the LORD; they did not do as their fathers.
18 When the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge and delivered them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who oppressed and afflicted them.
19 But it came about when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their stubborn ways.

Note that it was God who raised up the Judges and that included them all. Deborah did not set herself up as a Judge but God raised her up.

The fact that Deborah worked as a judge under a palm tree does not mean that God restricted her from having the same authority as the male judges. In fact Deborah is the only judge shown in the book of Judges as functioning in a judicial position. And she did so as other kings had sat in a judicial position in that era. The IVP Bible background commentary says this about her position:

4:5. holding court. Deborah is the only figure portrayed in the book of Judges as actually functioning in a judicial position. She hears and decides cases and provides answers to oracular inquiry under a palm tree which served as a landmark for that region. The description of her “court” is similar to that found in the Ugaritic epic of Aqhat (c. 1500 B.C.), which depicts King Danil sitting on a threshing floor before the city gates, judging the cases of the widows and orphans (Aqhat III.i.20–25).

There is not one word in the Scriptures that gives any indication that God limited Deborah’s authority as Judge or that she had to do her judging in a place that would limit her authority. Deborah’s place of judging was not uncommon for those in authority and the act of judging was in accordance with God’s Word, not against any kind of limitation of a woman’s “role”. These additions to God’s Word are the traditions of men that want to place Deborah in a secondary position far below the authority of the male Judges. Unfortunately for those who wish to dismiss Deborah’s rule as Judge and deliverer, God Himself said that He sent all of the Judges and Deborah, a woman, was one of God’s spoke persons.

It is important that we give out God’s Word as it is written instead of our opinion which can be tainted through the traditions of men which water down the Word of God through their traditions.

Thanks for your comments. While I strongly disagree, I do value participation here of my dear brothers and sisters in Christ who are all welcome to challenge what I say so that we can look carefully at Scripture together.

TaWanda, can you please give the verse that says that Deborah was not allowed to judge from the same place as where the men did? Where is her restriction limited? Or is this a tradition about what she couldn’t do that is imported into the text rather than what the text actually says?

I think that it is very important for us as women to know what the Scripture says and to be precise rather than to allow ourselves to be influenced by the tradition of men rather than the pure Word of God.

By the way, welcome to my blog!

Rob, welcome to my blog.

As far as taking authority over other members of the body of Christ, I don’t believe in that, nor do I believe that this is taught in the Scriptures. As far as teaching the truth of God’s word for a man’s benefit, we are to give our God-given gifts for the common good. I agree with TL that those who love the truth won’t care which vessel the Holy Spirit uses to teach God’s truth to them.

Thanks Craig! That really makes me feel like my work has been worth the time and effort I put into it. Thank you for taking the time to encourage me as I am so encouraged when people take the time to let me know that I have helped them in some small way.

Craig,
I should have also commented that I thank you for your kind remarks. I value your gentle nature.

Craig,
You said:

If Peter’s comment is confined to this incident I can see how it would remove the practical problem of a wife being told to submit to her husband, even when he says to do something unwise or sinful.

I think that we can be confident that the kind of obedience that Peter is talking about is the kind of obedience that surrounds the only incidence where Sarah calls Abraham “lord”. Here is the obedience that I see:

Genesis 18:6 (NKJV)
6So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.”

Abraham was looking for favor in the sight of God and how he showed his honor and respect depended on what Sarah did. She did what was right by listening to her husband and complying with his request. Peter writes that women are to be like Sarah who blessed her husband with this obedience “whose daughters you are if you do good”. Peter could not be referring to the wrong that Abraham did since the half-truth that both Abraham and Sarah told others about being brother and sister was the direct cause of God’s judgment to come to the Egyptians and a threat of death to come to Abimelech who was an innocent man. Sarah is never said to have done “good” in giving out a half-truth and God Himself was able to protect Abraham without his wife having to say what was not fully truthful. Since Peter specifically pointed out the passage where Sarah’s obedience was given to Abraham, the very time that she called him lord, I don’t think that we should interject the times where they acted in fear and input those instances into Peter’s specific commendation about the “good” that Sarah did through obedience.

I do believe that Sarah gave her husband a sign of respect by calling him lord, as a general term, but I can’t prove that since there is only one instance of where it happened. It is apparent that she respected her husband, no matter what she called him.

So I do not think that Peter is referring to telling half lies as the “good” that Christian women are to follow regarding Sarah. I believed it is her respectful attitude towards him and her willingness to listen when he asks her to do what he asked. I believe that it is a loving act when a woman respects her husband and tries to serve him. I also believe that it is a respectful thing for a husband when he serves his wife and gives himself up for her. I believe that both are examples of mutual submission.

Craig,
Under question #2, you asked:

2. Peter seems to be encouraging a woman to submit to her husband even when he wants her to do something dodgy, because this is what Sarah did for Abraham. I can see how this may show submission and support, but has problems with the rest of scripture.
   Any thoughts? Thanks.

I don’t think that Abraham’s dubious request is what Peter is referring to, but rather the reference to when Sarah called Abraham lord was in regard to the promised Messiah. I can’t find any other biblical reference where she called him lord. Sarah did accept the place of mother even at her old age.

Genesis 18:12 (NASB95)
12. Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”

Craig,
Thanks for your questions.

Under question #1:

The Greek term asthenes can refer to weak or powerless. The grammar is “comparative” which doesn’t mean that this is her essence, but in comparison to his power in society, she is seen as powerless. The term skeuos can refer to vessel or instrument as in a material object used to meet some need in an occupation or other responsibility (BDAG) Which is the best way to view these terms?

We have several clues that will help us unravel Peter’s meaning. First of all husbands are to dwell with their wives with understanding. This is the Greek term gnosis which means knowledge – the comprehension or intellectual grasp of something. What is this knowledge to bring to the woman? Peter said that it is to give honor to the wives. While women typically have been in a weak position in society, God has said from the beginning even before her creation that man needs her. If the husband dwells with his wife with the knowledge of her place of importance, then he too will give her honor just as the woman gives her husband respect.

Another clue that Peter gives is term “likewise” in verse 7. Just as Sarah honored her husband and was submissive to him, giving him respect and honor, so the husband is to honor the wife, treating her with the honor that goes with being the one who was designed to meet the “not good” need of the man. Honor is the manifestation of esteem, honor, reverence and respect (BDAG).

Peter then writes that she is a co-heir (heir together) with the man of spiritual and eternal life. Peter gives a highly important incentive which is given uniquely regarding the woman. He writes that the man must give this kind of reverence, respect and honor towards the woman so that his prayers are not hindered. The Greek term enkopto means to thwart, hinder, impede, delay, detain, to make progress slow or difficult. The term for prayer can mean prayer, request, approach to God.

I think that with all of this together, one should be able to understand that the woman is in a disadvantaged place in society but she is needed in the body and it is so much of God’s will that she be given an equal place of honor as a co-heir of God’s grace that if she is not treated with this kind of respect and honor, God will hold back the man in his spiritual life.

I believe that when men recognize the importance of their sisters in Christ in the body as equal heirs of God’s grace, God’s message and God’s gifts, God will bind us together in love and the church will go forth in power rather than being stifled and held back.

Paul sums up the respect of the wife to the husband and the respect and honor of the husband to the wife by saying:

1 Peter 3:8–9 (NASB95)
8. To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;
9. not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.

The end result of giving out honor to one another will be for our own good. We will inherit a blessing when we consider one another and deal with each other in a humble and kindhearted way.

gengwall, I would be very honored and blessed to meet you in person!

I should add that the conference is the general assembly of International Ministerial Fellowship. I am very honored that the founder was very insistent that I come and speak to their members. He watched my DVDs and believes that the members of their fellowship can benefit from hearing what I have to say.

Thanks for the comments Greg and gengwall.

By the way if anyone is interested, I will be speaking at a conference held at Celebration Church in Lakeville, Minnesota, July 21st and 22nd. http://www.themoreconference.com/breakout-sessions/ I have been scheduled for two break out sessions plus a luncheon (costs $15 per person). http://www.themoreconference.com/theres-more/

Thanks Craig for your encouraging word. The last number of months have been a long hard road. Things are not completely back to normal, but the joy of the Lord is returning even though we have not yet seen the end of the tunnel. Praise the name of the Lord for His love endures forever!

263 Craig,

I didn’t find the term subjection, but when God tells Abraham to listen to Sarah, the term for “listen” means to hear and accept a request, to obey. Obedience by hearing and accepting the other person’s desires or will is submission.

262 Craig,

Galatians 2:5 is the noun form of the word for submission. It is found 4 times in the NT in this form: 2 Cor 9:13 where it is translated obedience in that NASB; Gal 2:5; 1 Timothy 2:11 translated as submissiveness; and 1 Timothy 3:4 where it is translated as control. As far as demanding submission, I don’t think the Bible allows Christians to do this. This is why we are told to submit rather than the shepherds told to take control over the flock. One person is never given control over another person, but people can voluntarily give their submission.

Here are the related words per Kittel:

Craig,
I do think that the variant read arose because the concept of humility and submission are so closely aligned. Also the submission and/or humility that one gives is volitional and is not aligned with forced subjection that comes from authority that requires submission. Thus the passage says that God opposes the proud and in verse 3 the “lording over” is an act of pride that comes from taking authority over others. Rather than “lording over” others, the one who has been given the responsibility to protect the flock is to be an example to the flock and verse 5 shows what kind of example that is. It is an example of humility. Humility places oneself under another for the other person’s good and when all do this mutually, the body grows in love and respect for one another rather than in a hierarchical authority structure.

Darren,
You said:

When I look at the relationship of the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirirt I believe that the Spirit and the Son submit to God the father’s authority.

The Scriptures do not say that the Holy Spirit submits to the Father’s authority. The only authority where submission is shown is regarding the humanity of Jesus and in His human nature, He submits Himself to the Father. Our DVD project on the Trinity shows the equality authority of the Father and the Son http://www.amazon.com/Trinity-Eternity-Future-Explaining-Exposing/dp/B001ID8582/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1303447476&sr=8-1 as well as the reason for the humility of Jesus. You may want to have a look at that material.

That does not make the Spirit or the Son less worthy, it merely puts them in different roles.

The Bible shows that all three operate in unity in the same work as they are all Creator and Lord. i.e. There is not just one role as Creator where only one person takes this role.

With all that being said I sacrifice and serve her, because that is the model that Christ has laid out for us, since he did not come to be served but to serve.

Sacrifice and service is mutual thus we are said to be in mutual humility and submission for the purpose of lifting each other up. This is the way that all of us desire to love and respect each other in marriage.

Is it possible that John Piper is realizing that he is failing at doing these things and wants to sacrificially show his wife Love?

It appears that this is so. The complementarian system is often fraught with problems in that it encourages pride in a position of power and authority to make decisions for another adult person. I have heard many of these high profile complementarian men admit that they had problems in their marriage with the tendency to override their wives will. Sometimes the problems surface early in the marriage and sometimes it comes after many years of overriding her will. It is a good sign when these men admit that there is a problem and admit that it is attached to their pride.

9 months off does not necessarily mean he has “big” issues like abuse. Could it be that he is tired/drained/broken and wants to rejuvenate and fall in love with his wife again,a t least emotionally.

Piper has spoken for himself and admitted that the problems are related to his pride. If fixing that problem causes him to fall in love with his wife again, that is a good thing, but the problem admitted is still pride.

Also, the reference to a man needing a helper more than a woman because scripture says that God made a suitable helper for the man is probably twisting scripture.

Maybe you could explain how you see this as a twist. Which Scripture do you reference in that the woman has in her creation as needing a male helper? Is not the woman said to be the glory of the man and not the man the glory of the woman? I think it is important to read what the Scripture says rather than adding in what we think it should say.

Craig,
The Textus Receptus which corresponds to the KJV shows submission but the NA27 (Nestle Aland Greek New Testament) has mutual humility rather than submission.

However the humility is akin to submission since verse 6 shows that mutual humility is placing ourselves under God in a lowered position so mutual humility (verse 5) is placing ourselves in a lowered position towards each other.

1 Peter 5:5–6 (NASB95)
5You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.
6Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,

Also the term “likewise” in verse 5 connects the submission in verse 5 to the service of elders in 1 Peter 5:2, 3. Elders are to voluntarily or willing shepherd the flock but not with any intention of lording over the flock but as a service to the flock in willingly protecting them. The mutual humility shows mutual service putting oneself under the other for the purpose of service so that the others are treated as if they are first and you are to receive the last place.

Thus with the mutual submission of the NASB and mutual submission of the NKJV, the idea is the same in both with deliberate mutuality.

Does this help?

Hi Elaine, yes I am alive and I am back as much as I can be. Hopefully I will be around more often.

Don, thanks for the comment and correction.

TL, excellent words!

Brian, welcome to my blog.

Eve is not innocent of disobeying God’s command, but she is not guilty of deliberate rebellion. There is only one who brought rebellion into the world and only one who brought a curse onto this earth.

I hope this helps.

Jay, I agree that if there was a situation where assumed authority was a problem, it seem much more reasonable that Paul would forbid an action “assuming authority” over anyone, not just men. It is untenable to think that Paul would only be concerned about the men in the congregation, while thinking that the women can handle themselves and maybe there might be some good correction when women assumed authority over other women. It just doesn’t make sense. And if Paul was already stopping men (and women) from assuming authority by his restriction in 1 Timothy 1:3, there would have been no need to single out all women in 1 Timothy 2:12.

I find other people’s theories interesting, but I always go back to my own understanding of 1 Timothy 2:12 because I don’t like these huge holes in other theories. And if I can find the holes in the arguments, complementarians won’t likely be convinced either.