Cheryl Schatz

Elaine, Thanks for your response. It seems to me that you see John’s negative statements about what he is not as some kind of evidence that John is not the turning point in history as Jesus said. For me, I take the word of Jesus as the finished answer. In my ministry, I have been dealing with a lady who is corresponding with me about the time change for the church and she has made Paul as the pivotal point. She says that Jesus had another gospel than Paul did and the church did not start until Paul’s salvation. I may be wrong, but some of the comments you made about the Jewish nation sure sound a lot like what I hear coming from this lady who is in the Hyper-Grace movement that sees two different gospels: one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Perhaps I am just more sensitive to these terms and am putting you in the same camp when that may not be the case. The Jews were both “under the law” and “by faith” just as Abraham. Those who truly believed would most certainly also believe the Son. Those who refused to believe what the Father said, would most certainly not believe the testimony of the Son. I invite you to have a look at the other articles I have written on John 6. I would love to hear your feedback. In Christ, Cheryl

Hi Elaine, Sorry for taking so long to answer. I have been swamped with work and several things that had to be done on time. You wrote: regarding the “pivitol” point.. while I agree with the Matt 11 v 12 words of Jesus…I do believe that He (Jesus) within the realms of those words point to Himself as being the pivotal point as He states in v 28 come unto Me all ye that are heavy laden and I will give you rest When Jesus pointed to Himself, He was pointing to the issue of who is our Saviour. But in the issue of the change of time, and the pivotal sign of the change, Jesus gave us the answer as the time of John the Baptist. It would not be in the nature of our Saviour to say that the time started with John the Baptist, and then turn around and say that the time started with Him. I take the words of Jesus as they are, and the fact that He gives no specific word to make Himself as the time of change. God’s people have always come to God for rest (Exodus 33:14 is just one example.) You wrote: While John was used as the announcer, he (John), still didnt know if Jesus was the one see v3 of same chap. John knew who Jesus was until John became offended. The Father gave testimony to John and John’s witness of what he knew was amazing. John knew that he was not fit to remove the sandals of the Messiah (Matt 3:11), that he needed to be baptized by Jesus (Matt 3:14), he saw the Holy Spirit descending as a dove and lighting on Jesus (Matt 3:16, John 1:32) which was the sign of the Messiah, John heard the voice of the Father from heaven declaring Jesus to be His beloved Son (Matt 3:17), John said that Jesus is the Lamb of God and that it is Jesus who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29), John said that Jesus existed before him (John 1:30), John said that he came baptizing in water so that Jesus might be manifested to Israel Israel (John 1:31), John said that the Father spoken to him and gave the witness thaact that Jesus different the one upon whom John saw the Spirit descending and remaining is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit (John 1:33), John said Jesus comes from above (John 3:31), John set his solemn seal to this testimony saying that God’s word about Jesus is true (John 3:33), John said that Jesus speaks the words of God and that Jesus has the Spirit without measure (John 3:34), John said the Father has given all things into Jesus’ hands (John 3:35), John testified that he who believes in Jesus has eternal life (John 3:36), John testified that the one who does not obey Jesus will not see life and the one who does not obey Jesus has the wrath of God abiding on him. (John 3:36) You wrote: I see scripture as stating quite catagorically that Jesus is the pivitol point in time for the great change that was to take place Jesus’ testimony is that John is the point in time. We cannot confuse the change of age to the work of Jesus. Jesus’ testimony cannot be disregarded as if it wasn’t true. You wrote: I think also that you did not understand what I said regarding the memorial tombs. I said that its easy for us (christians, jews and gentiles, one flock) NOW to understand the meaning and content (all), but in Jesus’ day the jews did not understand what Jesus meant, although they had the scriptues which spoke of the Christ…they didnt “get it” While the crowd does not completely understand Jesus, they would get that he was talking about some dead in verse 25 and all the dead in verse 28 of John 5, and that it was for now and later for some of the dead and at the end of the age for all of the dead. The grammar is particular and they would understand His grammar. I will continue commenting in the next comment box.

Elaine, You wrote: We know that Jesus is particularly talking to THOSE under law as He says in v 23 “That all men should be valueing the son.. AS THEY ARE (or should be) valueing the Father…and why Jesus says TO THE JEWS that “no-one can come to the Son UNLESS the Father draws him” meaning that IF they knew the God of Israel they will now have to know and accept the son I would say that Jesus is talking to those who honor the Father. Those who do not honor the Father will not honor the Son, and those who THINK they honor the Father, are dishonoring Him if they dishonor Jesus. Those ones prove that they never knew the Father. if they do not accept the Son then they never really knew/had the Father in the first place as the Father would give them to Jesus. I fully agree with this, however, the emphasis is not on the LAW, but on honor. This is an extremely important point, that the jews hear AND accept. Do they really? Do the Jews who are not honoring Jesus believe and accept that they are not honoring the Father? I don’t think so. Again you wrote: Jesus tells of the time of the gentile calling when He says that “When the son of man is lifted up HE will draw all sorts of men (gentiles) TO HIMSELF (Jesus) Jesus did not say “all sorts of men”. He clearly said ALL men. You wrote: Jesus himself says v 39 “Ye search the scriptures (what we know as the O/T) for in them ye think (jews not gentiles) ye have eternal life and they are they which testify about ME. Jesus was indeed talking to the religious Jews who stood before Him. So yes ALL would one day come out of the memorial tombs… but at THAT TIME the jews did not understand. Yes they did understand that there would be a resurrection of the good and a resurrection of the bad. Their own Talmudic writings shows that there would be a general resurrection. I, me, other christians NOW understand but THEN the jews did not which is the point I was trying to make and obviously failing to do so. The Jews may not have understood about spiritually dead men coming to life by hearing the words of Jesus, but they would have definitely understood about a general resurrection. If I am missing what you are saying, then perhaps the problem is with me and not you. As regards the “there are not 2 ways to salvation only one way to life” that you said…once again I agree.. it is in Christ… but again you must agree that before Christ came, how could I believe in Him if He was not yet born and I was a little gentile living 500bc One can still respond to God in faith by whatever light He gives them. He has promised that those who fear Him, He will reveal His covenant to them. I happen to believe that as I believe He is faithful to those who will submit to Him. There is a “before” Christ and there is an “after” Christ surley… Yes, the true light came directly into the world, the light that God has witnessed to since the beginning, but as far as the time change from the old to the new covenant, it was the time of John the Baptist. Jeus said so. Christ has already given the criteria for “after” His coming on the scene, hearing Him and believing… Jesus said that John bore witness of Him. People will be judged on the gospel that was preached to them by John. That is the turning point. Hopefully what I said makes sense. I have had to reformat my computer a couple of times in the last week and I put in long hours of work. I can’t promise that I am coherent now, but I am trying. 🙂

Hi Elaine, Welcome to my blog! You asked about verse 28. Marvel at what? The Greek is set up with a forwarding pointing device to show that “this” is. The little solid box in the screen print is the forward pointing device is a near distinction as compared to the “far” issue of what is happening now. The little circle with a dot in it is the target that is being pointed to and you can see if starts with “an hour is coming” and ends with “the resurrection of judgment.” I will answer further in the next comment.

Elaine, You said: Jesus is the pivotal moment in time/eternity things are changing and Jesus is that change. So wouldn’t you think that Jesus in v 28 is talking about “all in the memorial tombs” as those of the Jewish nation that will be judged by their deeds/works under law and not those of the worlds as the jews had no idea at this time of the great shift in Gods purposes neither did the gentiles Actually Jesus said that the pivotal moment in time was from the time of John the Baptist (Matthew 11:12). And when Jesus spoke about graves He referenced is not the memorial tomb that the Jews used and in which Jesus was buried, but the tombs that were in the ground and marked by a memorial stone. This gives no reference to a Jewish-only meaning but for all the dead whom Jesus will raise in the future. You said: So v25 is those who are physically alive (the jews not gentiles) that hear and believe that would become spiritually alive also No, this would be both Jews and Gentiles. Jesus specifically said a time is coming (that would be in the future when both spiritually dead Gentiles and Jews will hear His voice) and now is (the now is only the Jews until the time of Jesus death.) You also said: and those in verse 28 are those that died under law and would have a different set of ways that they would be judged as those who did good deeds that would bring forth life and others deeds that would bring forth death. There are not two ways that people have salvation. There is one way to life. Hopefully, I have understood you well enough and explained myself so that you too can understand.

gilliansnotebook, I rescued your comments out of the spam box. It looks like the new plug-in that allows a person to edit their comments may be causing some problem on my blog. I will watch it and I may need to remove the plug-in it the comments continue to by-pass moderation or direct posting. I would hate for me to miss the comments if they are put into my blog spam box.

Absolutely, Brad!

Robin, I agree that iron sharpening iron is a good thing. I have learned from people who were solidly against me in other areas when they showed me something that I had missed. When I listened to what they had to say, it helped me clear up some loose string and surprisingly made my argument even stronger. I believe that body of Christ needs each one as God has not given any one of us all of His gifts. We are meant to minister to one another and to learn from one another. I agree that the tense of a verb is very important and should not be missed. We want to make sure that we understand what the author is saying, and not try to fit it into our own little box. Robin, you said that Jesus could not have meant “all” in Matthew 26:52 because it wasn’t true. Let’s use the definition you provided: “in totality with focus on its individual components.” If the definition is applied to “all who take the sword will perish by it,” we would interpret it as “the totality of individual persons who take up swords will (each) perish by them.” Of course, that can’t be a true statement. However, it is true that “some” of the people who take up swords will perish by them. I don’t agree. Jesus’ words are always true and He spoke the truth or else explained when His words had a spiritual meaning and were being misunderstood. When Jesus said “all” in Matthew 26:52, He meant all. Matthew 26:52 (NASB) Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Jesus is not talking about those who just wield the sword. He is using an idiom that has a specific meaning. “To take the sword” is used for rashly usurping magisterial power instead of giving obedience and subjection to God. Are all those who refuse to give obedience and subjection to God, but take their own vengeance into their own hands – will all of these be killed with the sword? Jesus said they would and He gave a second witness. The testimony of Jesus is given in the book of Revelation. Revelation 13:10 (NASB) If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. His testimony is that God’s justice will bring an eye for an eye and the saints can count on that. Also in Revelation 19:15 He is said to be the one who measures out the wrath of God and the sharp sword is mentioned as the way He accomplishes God’s wrath. Revelation 19:15 (NASB) From His mouth comes a sharp sword , so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. Revelation 1:16 (NASB) In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. Do I believe that Jesus meant “all” in Matthew 26:52? Yes, I believe He meant exactly what He said. I believe He meant “all” and the perishing is the judgment that He will do in the future. All judgment is given for Him to accomplish as He is the Son of man and the sword from His mouth is how He will slay the wicked. I like how Paul said it in Romans when he was responding to those who were accusing God of not being faithful to His own words. Romans 3:4 (NASB) May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.” Robin, if you have biblical evidence for Matthew 26:52 that Jesus said “all” but the Father really meant just “some”, I would be very interested to read your reasoning. Until I am convinced from the Scriptures, I stand on Matthew 26:52 and John 12:32 that all means all.

Brad, You said: Some say that “draw” equals “actually arriving.” This would seem to negate the “coming.” I note that “draw” and “come” are two different words with two different spellings and two different definitions…even in English…this is also related to John 6 because of the link of the word “draw…” Exactly! That is how I see it too.

Brad, excellent point!

Robin, In your second point you said: 2) If God’s plan to reach the Third World people is to show them He exits and that He has power via nature… then hasn’t that plan seemed a little inadequate, since the majority of people through the centuries don’t acknowledge God? (This seems to illustrate how necessarily essential supernatural intervention in the human mind must be?) Robin, I encourage you to trust what the Scripture says without putting it through a Calvinist pair of eye glasses. First of all if Jesus said that He would draw all to Him, it doesn’t mean that we have to understand fully how He can do that, but to just believe Him and take Him at His word. Let’s look at Romans 10:13-18 for confirmation. Romans 10:13–15 (NASB) 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” In these verses, God says that it is those who call on the name of the LORD who will be saved. He doesn’t say that it is the ones who are pre-chosen that will be saved. The next verses (14, 15) show that faith will ultimately come down to the sending of the messengers. Who is the one who sends? Is it not God Himself? Is not God ultimately responsible as Lord of the harvest to send out the laborers? Then in Romans 10:16-18 Isaiah is quoted as asking who has believed their report? Romans 10:16–18 (NASB) 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.” Who has believed their report? It can’t be said that they have never heard the word of Christ since verse 18 says they HAVE heard and their voice has gone out into ALL the earth! Then look at the next few verses: Romans 10:19–21 (NASB) 19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, “I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU.” 20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.” 21 But as for Israel He says, “ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE.” Here the LORD is said to be found by those who were not seeking Him. He manifested Himself to those who did not ask for Him. And as for Israel He draws them by saying that all day long He stretched out His hands to the disobedient and obstinate people. He has promised to draw all, even those who have never heard of Him and even those tho have heard of Him but who are disobedient. I believe that eternity will show us the amazing ways that He drew the lost, yet they turned their backs on the revelation that He gave them. Do I believe Jesus when He said that He would draw all to Himself? Yes, I do and I encourage you to accept His words first and then seek to understand. Do not say that He has failed to do as He said. Believe Him and wait for the evidence in eternity. The failure of men to believe is not His failure. God is not limited by our sin or by our unbelief.

Robin, on your third point you said: It sounds as if you’re saying that a prerequisite to being drawn by Jesus is to acknowledge God-exists-via-creation first, so how does that adequately explain that Jesus promised that “every individual” would, in fact, be drawn to HIM? No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that in order for one to come to God that one must FIRST believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him. I did not say that in order to be drawn by Jesus one must first acknowledge these two things. Do you see the difference? You also said: The only condition, as you pointed out, was fulfilled – that is, Jesus was lifted up. Therefore, whether one acknowledges God-via-creation or not, all should still be drawn to Jesus HIMSELF. This would imply a direct knowledge about who Jesus is and what He did for us – and 100% of the world’s population does not get this info. No! I would imply a direct revelation of God who is Jesus. In order to come to God, one needs to believe 2 things about Him. That is what the Scripture says and I accept it without having to deny any part of what He said. And in order to come to Jesus one needs to believe God the Father and what He said about Jesus. One leads to another when each revelation is revealed and believed. But the revelation of Jesus is not the only way that people are drawn to Jesus. They are first drawn to Him as God!! It has to happen in this order, because God said so. The fact is that the majority of the people in the third world, and in our western civilization to not come to Jesus. They refuse the revelation that they have been given. And, those who are willing to hear can still hear the gospel preached even if they have never heard of Jesus before. Revelation 14:6 says that the gospel is proclaimed by an angel. Today there are many who have given a witness that they were in an area where they had no gospel, but they had visions and dreams of Jesus and have come to a true faith in Him. We may not understand this because we have the gospel so readily available here, but it appears that from the Scriptures God will send out messengers of one kind or another to those who will respond to Him in faith. I think we will be amazed in eternity at the ways that He was able to get the gospel into places where it seemed to be completely closed to the good news. The bottom line here seems to be, will we accept the testimony of the Father that He gave to Jesus to say? Will Jesus draw all men to Him? Whether you can or cannot understand how this will be done, I hope that all who read these words will say that the testimony of the Father and the testimony of Jesus is true. He WILL draw all men to Himself.

gilliansnotebook, I added an edit comment plugin that will allow a commenter to edit their comments for a short time. Hopefully it works on my blog. Let me know if it works for you.

Thank you Darrell!

gilliansnotebook, I think you have a good question as well. I believe Jesus when He said that He spoke the words that His Father gave to Him. The Father said what He means. Since He knows all things, He would have know that using the term “all” would mean people would believe Jesus would draw all human beings to Him. Because the Father does not deceive people, He would have used the term “some” or equivalent if He meant “some” of the Jews and “some” of the Gentiles. It may be a hard passage to understand, but I do not understand why the words of Jesus are not seen as meaning “all”. There is no limiting factor in the passage to remove the importance of the term “all”.

Here is the link http://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/jesus-draws-all/ I had lots of computer issues. I am still not completely over the issues, but I got time to get the article done. Let me know if this helps. Again, sorry to take so long. That was not my intention. http://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/jesus-draws-all/

Robin, It is so good to see you thinking this one through. Let’s start with your first point. 1) Actually “all” does mean “all” in the Scripture. I think you mean that it can mean something other than every single human being. That is true. But “all” means “all” of a category. The primary meaning is the individual components, every. What category is Jesus talking about? If Jesus is talking about all Jews and Gentiles, then that is everyone for there is no other category. There is no option for the word to men only some of the category. For example, if the passage were talking about all of the crowd, then it means all of the category (the crowd). It wouldn’t mean all of the world. But in this context it cannot mean a subcategory of mankind as there is no subcategory mentioned. I do believe that He meant “all” as in all Jews and Gentiles because that means all people without exception. Secondly, it would not be like Jesus who gets all of His words from the Father to be imprecise. If He actually meant that He would draw some Gentiles and some Jews then He would have spoken precisely. In fact just a few chapters later, Jesus said that He would let His followers know what isn’t true. John 14:2 (NASB) “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. Jesus said that if it were not so, He WOULD HAVE told them. Jesus is not interested in being misunderstood or being imprecise. He would have told us what He meant. Thirdly, the fact that the Gentiles had ALREADY started to come Jesus was a sign that they were being drawn to Jesus. So Jesus’ statement makes no sense that Gentiles would only be drawn to Him if He died. Let’s hash this one out before we go on to the other points. I believe that everything you have to say is worth answering and considering.

Robin, So my challenge back to you is to show why you believe that Jesus meant only “some” Jews and only “some” Gentiles when He chose the word “all”. Couldn’t Jesus have just said what He meant if He was going to draw only “some”?

I do want to apologize that I did not have time this week to get the article done. We had over 1200 plums to process and that project took most of this week so I am behind. I will work on getting the article uploaded this coming week. Sorry for the delay.

Sorry for the confusion, Brad. What I should have said is that God only draws those who believe the Father. These where those who were believers in the times of Jesus and they were call God-fearers. Those who refused to believe Moses, did not believe the Father. Only those who believed the testimony of the Father through Moses were drawn to Jesus in that time.

Another way to say it is that God draws all by teaching all, but only those who believe what He has said will be drawn to a relationship with Jesus.

So the drawing and believing are two different things with two different words and meanings. Not all of those who are drawn will believe and come to Jesus.

Brad, that is the subject of my next post. It may take me a couple of days or so to complete. If you have not yet subscribed to The Giving blog, you might want to do that to be informed when the next post comes out. I think it might have some ideas from John 12 that you may not have noticed before. And if I am wrong, I can be corrected!

Robin, You said: Cheryl, I’m somewhat surprised. It seems as if you are saying that people must first come to the Father before they can come to the Son. Jesus said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws the person. John 6:44 (NASB) “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. There is something more that Jesus said in John 12, that I will be posting in a few days that is applicable. In John 6 the terms “come” to Jesus and “believe” in Jesus are treated synonymously. So no one can believe in Jesus unless the Father is involved. Jesus had already told the Jews that unbelief in the Father’s word results in unbelief in Him. If one refuses to believe God the Father’s word, will they come to (believe in) Jesus?

Robin, the rest of your statements/questions, I am going to copy and get to them as soon as I can. I am multi-tasking right now and I don’t want to dismiss or consider lightly any of your points.

Robin, While I take time away to get other things done, if you haven’t seen these two articles, they may be helpful to you. The last link is on why each of the groups was not coming to Jesus. The first link is about why no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. I am very willing to dialog/discuss and answer questions on these issues. https://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/none-can/ https://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/why-not-coming/

Brad, you are right again, but there is something more in the passage. I will get to that shortly.

Robin, Today I am going to focus on your questions. And no, I am not weary of you at all. I love questions because I believe that honest and well thought-out questions deserve to be answered. You said that being taught by God necessitates that all are taught about Jesus because of John 6:44 and John 12:32. You said: This passage is all about coming to Jesus in particular (knowing and understanding His true identity), not just coming to a general belief in God, right? Verse 44 is about coming to Jesus, but verse 45 goes back to believing the word of the Father before one believes in Jesus. Verse 45 is a quote from the OT that says all will be taught of God (the Father), but it isn’t the taught ones that come to Jesus. It is only those who hear (have ears to hear Matt. 11:15) and who has LEARNED from the Father. Not everyone learns. While there are references to the coming of the Messiah from Genesis on, the Father also taught the Jews about righteousness, sin and judgment. Those who learned from the Father were those who feared God. Malachi 3:16. Those who were taught by God but who did not take the teaching to heart were those who did not learn. They refused to believe the Father’s words and so they were hardened as Brad said so that they could not believe in Jesus. The point is that belief in the Father is a necessary prerequisite for coming to Jesus. The Father NEVER gave unbelievers in Him to the Son. I think that the questions you ask on John 12:32 are so important that they deserve an answer that everyone can see. Not everyone reads the comments on a post. If it is okay with you, I am going to create a new post and then put the link here in the comment section. I will comment further on your questions here as well. I will continue in another comment box.

Robin, You said: If the drawing is necessary, and if the Father desires to draw people to His Son, then of course, He must teach them about His Son. Yes, the Father does desire to draw believers to His Son. However, He only draws believers to His Son. None of those who were unbelievers in the Father was ever drawn to Jesus. In my next post which will be based on your questions, I will explain why that is. You said: A verse that comes into mind to illustrate this is, “For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”  (2 Cor. 4:6) If it’s true that “the god of this age has blinded” unbelievers, it makes sense that God must intervene somehow in order for His Son to be seen. 2 Corinthians 4:6 is written about believers not unbelievers. And 2 Corinthians 4:4 was written about unbelievers and not about believers. Every single person who came to Jesus in the gospel accounts was a God-fearing Jew or a God-fearing Gentile. The ones who did not fear God and who did not walk in obedience to the light that had been given them were hardened in their unbelief. None of them came to Jesus. Robin, you said: I have to admit that this sounds like a work of God that is not only necessary, but (to borrow a despised term!), effectual! God’s work IS absolutely necessary, however not everyone that He teaches will respond. They are required to learn. And the more that God teaches them, the more responsible they are. Luke 12:48 shows that God giving to a person can be negative since with the giving comes a requiring back. I have something to challenge you with – can you find anyone in the Scriptures you hates God, but who becomes a believer in Christ? It appears that God’s teaching is not effectual in those who hate Him. That doesn’t mean that He does anything wrong. It just means that there is a reckoning required from man.

Robin, You wrote: Besides that, the Isaiah verse Jesus quoted, “they shall “all be taught,” also seems effectual in its own context. Does it seem effectual in John 6:45? Jesus used the quote to answer those who were grumbling about Him. Jesus used their own grumbling to prove His point. He said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him, but the drawing is ineffectual unless one learns from the Father. The fact that Jesus said that EVERYONE who hears AND LEARNS from the Father comes to Him, proves they had not LEARNED of God even though God promised to teach them all. So it isn’t the fault of Jesus that they were not believing in Him. And it is not the fault of the Father that He did not draw them to Jesus. It is their own fault because they refused to believe in Jesus. Remember John 5:46 John 5:46 (NASB) “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. Moses wrote about Jesus, but it was the Father’s words. They did not believe the Father and so they cannot believe Jesus. Jesus gave a conditional statement that had nothing to do with effectual drawing. It had everything to do with believing what was already written.