Cheryl Schatz

Brad, I am going to post my complete answer on the John 12 passage on my next post. It just seems too important to let it be answered in a blog comment rather than a post.

Brad, You are right in that John 12:32 is conditional and the condition is the crucifixion. I want you to see something else in John 12:38 first. There are two questions that are asked that are seen as a fulfillment of what had just happened in John 12:37. There is a cause and effect in John 12:38. Can you see the condition in John 12:38?

Robin, I like your questions because it shows you are thinking this issue of salvation through very carefully. So let’s continue to think and to question and start with John 6. In John 6:45 it is clearly revealed that all shall be taught of God. Does this necessitate that all shall be taught about Jesus, in other words will all be taught the gospel? Notice the qualifier in verse 45. Is there something that a person has to do that will make sure they come to Jesus? Is this conditional or uncondtional? Secondly, does verse 44 say that all people will be drawn to Jesus by the Father? Now let’s look at chapter 12. Is John 12:32 conditional or unconditional? Look at John 12:38. What is the answer to the question about “to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Then look at verses 44, 45. Is there a condition in these verses? After looking at these verses, is there something else that is hidden in verse 32 that is conditional elsewhere? I want you to see this for yourself first. Then I would love to discuss the answer with what you have found within the context of the passage. So the answer is in the passage. See verse 32 in the light of verses 44 and 45. Let me know what you find.

Robin, You asked: By drawing and being taught, do we mean that the Holy Spirit and the Father make Jesus look appealing? No. I believe that drawing and being taught has to do with knowledge that is given and conviction of sin so that we would understand our need for a Savior. Or, is the drawing and the teaching merely that the bare facts of the death and resurrection are known? I also believe that to come to God we need to believe that He exists. He gives everyone a level of revelation of who He is. I believe that the one who accepts the revelation given to him, that more will be given. But to him who rejects, resists and suppresses the truth that has been given, that which is rejected is taken away from him. The death of Jesus and the resurrection is the gospel. I do believe that if some responds to the light that God has given him and diligently seeks God, God will make sure that at some point he will hear the gospel. God talks about rewarding those who diligently seek Him and I believe that He is compassionate and abounding in mercy. Apparently, China is full of people who don’t believe a God even exists, let alone knowing anything about the Son. The Bible says that all have been given knowledge of God so that they are without excuse. I may not understand how all of this works, but I do believe that God will teach all, just as all have a conscience. I know that God speaks the truth and He knows what is in every man.

Brad, Welcome to my blog! You are exactly right. Jesus did not lie. All are drawn to Him. But all do not believe. When we put these two together with the exact grammar of John 6, we will not be deceived to believe that Jesus lied or that God only wants some to believe. Those pesky grumblers are to blame for their own unbelief.

Robin, Perhaps one can say it this way, that every human has an inner knowledge that is placed within himself by God. I think we can all agree that all of us have a conscience. That includes everyone throughout the whole world. Because we are limited as human beings, we cannot know what God is doing inside a person except that He tells us. He told us through Paul in Romans 1:19 that there is knowledge about God within a person and God makes the knowledge evident to each person. Romans 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. In Romans 1:18 we are told that people “suppress the truth”. This shows that people are given (taught) truth by God, but they suppress what He gives them. If I would identify what being taught by God means by what is written in the Bible, I would say that being taught by God is knowledge given and truth given that we can either accept or suppress. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. What I also see is that God has determined to give people enough truth that they will seek God. Acts 17:26–27 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; While a person in China has not heard the gospel and does not believe in God, I can confidently say that the person has been given knowledge of God within the person and that God is not far from them if they will seek Him and grope for Him. I will answer your other questions in a bit, if not tonight, then hopefully I will get at it tomorrow.

Vanessa, praise God for His love and mercy to you! So glad that you made it back. The enemy loves to distort the truth so that we see God as evil rather than good.

Carolien, Thanks for your comment. I gave many examples of who Scriptures says that Jesus died for. While John 3:16 is a great verse, Calvinists take the term “world” to mean “the elect” and so for them the verse means that God so loved that elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever (the elect) believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Because of the distortion of John 3:16 in the mind of a Calvinist, I added many other verses so that the broad example of the Scripture would show that ALL examples for whom Christ died, are broad and universal.

Arthur, I have not had a chance yet to view the video you posted. I hope you have a chance to look through our resources on John 6 as well. Blessings.

Seeking truth, welcome to The Giving blog! I appreciate you attempting to answer my questions as you believe a Calvinist would. Under your point # 1, I would recommend that you re-read my article as you seem to have missed the point. The point is two-fold, tht the condition for man’s coming is not in man, but within God and that those who do come MUST first be drawn by the Father so that the ones who are raised up are the ones who have been taught and have responded to the Father by learning from Him. There is nothing in the article that says a man can come on his own to Jesus. Under your point #2, the Bible does not say that God’s drawing mean He is IN us. It does mean that He is revealing Himself to us and teaching us. If He was already IN us, then John 5:25 would not show that we hear and then live, but we would have to rewrite it to say we live and THEN hear. I would rather just stick to the Bible with the revelation it gives us. In your point #3, the passage says nothing about God drawing us by changing our nature. The Greek word that is translated as draw NEVER means to give life to the person. If you think this would be a proper Calvinist answer perhaps you could point to a reputable lexicon that gives that meaning for the word draw. I have never seen it and the standard work BDAG does not list that meaning. I would be happy to interact with any findings tht you have. Thanks for dropping by!

Robin, You said: John 5:25 only demonstrates that by an act of God’s speaking to a human heart, some will live. It technically does not say if any other necessary element takes place; that is, it does not specify how or why a person hears with acceptance What it does specify is that the person hears while they are DEAD. That is key. For the majority of Calvinists who believe that a person must be resurrected first to have spiritual life, they cannot conceive that a person can be DEAD and hear. This verse is very troubling to them. Other Calvinists do accept that the dead can hear, but seem to have a problem explaining how the dead can hear if they need to be resurrected to have eternal life. You said: If you look at the verse just before, it says “he who hears My word and believes… has everlasting life. The Greek for “has” means “already holds, or possesses.” That is correct. In verse 24 Jesus adds believing to the ones who are hearing. If you hear AND believe you have eternal life. Thus life comes after the believing. Plus, the very next phrase reiterates that by emphasizing again that this person who hears and believes “has passed” (Greek, has already passed) from death into life. Yes, that is correct. Once one believes one “has passed” from death to life. The Greek is in the perfect tense and the emphasis is on the present “state of affairs” resulting from the ongoing believing. So, can verse 25 actually be properly used to confirm that some act of God (let’s play rough here… some “effectual” apparatus) isn’t also in play here? The only thing that we can gain from this verse is that Jesus speaks to the dead person. His speaking is necessary and that it is the dead person themselves that hear is the Greek future active. That means that God is not directly involved in their hearing or else it would be passive. In addition, verse 25 says those who hear will live. Thayer’s cites John 5:25 as an example of how life in this text means in the Messianic sense to enjoy life, to live life to its full, eternally. In other words, it doesn’t specifically refer to the theological act of regeneration or rebirth. Thayer’s is wrong on this one. And RC Sproul’s ministry (a popular Calvinist ministry teaching the heart and soul of Calvinism) teaches that John 5:25 is about the spiritually dead. What the verse specifically does not teach is: how many people are spiritually dead, how many spiritually dead people hear God, how it comes about that they hear God, or how it is that they are born again spiritually. What it does teach is foundational: The Spiritually dead can hear and hearing comes before believing. Verse 24 shows that believing comes after hearing and once a person believes that are said that the result is they have eternal life. I will carry on in the next comment box.

Robin, you said: If anything, Calvinists could perhaps use this verse to demonstrate there is a limited number of people who effectively hear God! The limit is not on the first clause but on the second. Notice in verse 25 that they are called “the dead”. This is a term of all, “the dead will hear”. That is all of them. But not all will hear in a way that pays close attention (vs 25) or believe (vs24). I am going to add a screen shot to my blog post above so you can see that.

You may need to hit “refresh” on your browser to have the screen shot show up in the article.

Robin, I say all this to say, let’s be careful how we use Scripture. There may be other verses to support the idea that spiritually dead people are able to hear God – but this is not one of them, in my humble opinion (just a housewife who enjoys studying). I beg to disagree. Even Steven Lawson from Ligonier Ministries (RC Sproul’s organization) teaches that this verse means the spiritually dead. And they are not alone. The Word Bible Commentary which has a Calvinist interpretation, says: 25 The truth of v 24 is projected on a vast scale. The “hour” that is coming is that of the eschatological future, to which the resurrection of the dead belongs; but it has already entered the present, since the Christ who raises the dead is here. His voice sounds out (cf v 8: Ἔγειρε, “Rise”!) that the “dead” (the mass of humankind, who exist in a condition of spiritual death) may live. The eschatological future which has come into the present bursts on the world through the lifting up of the Christ and embraces the resurrection hour of vv 28–29, for the Christ-event divides and determines all ages (see Blank, Krisis, 134–43). Beasley-Murray, G. R. (2002). John (Vol. 36, pp. 76–77). Dallas: Word, Incorporated. John MacArthur, another Calvinist writes in his The MacArthur Study Bible: 5:25 hour is coming, and now is. Cf. 4:23. This phrase reveals an already/not yet tension regarding the resurrection. Those who are born again are already “spiritually” resurrected (“now is”; Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13), and yet a future physical resurrection still awaits them (“hour is coming”; 1 Cor. 15:35–54; Phil. 3:20, 21). MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1588). Nashville, TN: Word Pub. I have the Ligonier series on John 6 and they also say that John 5:25 is about the spiritually dead. You wrote: But I’d also like to point out that God has gifted his church with pastors and teachers down through the centuries, and among the godliest theologians there is a lengthy list of Calvinists. I would not say that Calvinists are not godly people or gifted. I believe that God has placed all of us in the body and that if we learned from each other, we can be as iron sharpening iron. What I see is that Calvinists point out and push us to see verses that nonCalvinists brush over. And nonCalvinists point out verses that Calvinists miss. Together we have no gaps. You said: Let’s please be kind. Calvinists are not to be equated to Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons, for pity’s sake. My two cents. My comments were to show that we should not come across as offensive. You may not have heard of the “cage stage” of new Calvinists, but I have come across more than my fill of them. They are offensive and often easily offended. They don’t want to hear anything. In my sixteen years of working with the cults in a support group for former JW’s and others, I learned that one must be respectful, willing to listen and the best way to earn the right to be listened to is to ask questions. Unfortunately cage-stage Calvinists will not listen at all to nonCalvinists and the best one can do is to plant a stone in their shoe. I had one Calvinist who pretty much told me that I was demon possessed and no matter how gentle I was in response to his anger, he kept at me. Years later he emailed me back and told me that he was over his cage-stage and he apologized to me. He said that I was always gentle and respectful even in the midst of his anger. gilliansnotebook knows about Jehovah’s Witnesses and she still needs to see that pounding a person even with the truth makes them angry and they leave. If we wish to dialog with our brothers and sisters in Christ over what we see as an error, we need to show respect, love and patience. If all we can do is to ask questions, then that may be as far as we get. God is Sovereign over all of the body, and He can take the truth of His Word and make the seed grow. I was happy to hear that you are a housewife. And that you enjoy studying Scripture. You go girl!

Robin, No problem with slowness. I can be pretty slow myself, especially when I have my nose in a research project. I tend to ignore everything else for a time until I come up for air. You said: some of you don’t believe, and this is why some of you don’t believe – “it” must be given by My Father. To what does the “it” refer? I’m trying to research this. What is it that must be given by the Father? The “it” that is granted to the person is the “coming” to Jesus. The coming to Jesus is a gift. I think you will find my article on John 6:37 to be helpful. https://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/come-john6-37/ Also my article on the Father’s drawing here http://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/none-can/ I will leave aside 1 Cor. 1:24 for now, both for a lack of time and because I do want to concentrate on John 6 and its context. I will be doing other DVDs on Ephesians, Romans 9, etc. John 6 is the key project for me right now. If it is still an issue for you after you have read the articles, I would be willing to dialog. And any questions connected to John 6, I can consider posting more extensively with a new blog post. I hope this helps. Thank you for your willingness to dialog.

Oh, and one more thing, I would be interested if you would be willing to share…are you a girl Robin, or a guy?

Robin, then you must have a LOT of wisdom, eh? That is quite a brood.

Robin, I have posted my comments on John 6:63 here http://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/john-663/

Robin, You said: I have legitimate questions that I am working through. That is reasonable and fair. I am glad that you found this blog and that we can interact in a respectful dialog. You also said: So far, I have yet to come across a reasonable answer to my question as to what brings about belief. It’s obvious that one must “hear.” That is obvious to me too, however is it not normal for a Calvinist to say that the dead can do nothing? That they are stone, cold, dead, and they can’t hear?

Robin, You asked: Shouldn’t we assume that in order to combat Satan’s power that God has at least equal (if not more) power to illuminate the mind? God speaks to people who are spiritually dead. He also says that they can hear Him. He certainly does have power to speak. You asked: And, if God has equal (if not more) power to illuminate a mind, shouldn’t we see more people coming to know the Lord than not? Why? It is God’s power to speak, but He says “those who HEAR will live”. You may be reasoning that God’s speaking is bringing a person to life SO THAT they can hear. But the Scripture clearly says that the dead HEAR first before they live. You said: To illustrate, God’s wooing me would be like presenting Christ to my mind so that Christ is attractive to me… like chocolate cake. Given spinach (sin) and chocolate cake (Christ), I would want to choose cake because it appeals more to me. So, my question stands… What causes someone to actually believe? The answer is in my post at http://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/john-663/ The words of God are His life-giving revelation so that we have even revelation to believe. This has nothing to do with choices of food. It has to do with revelation of what is God-breathed. Robin, you pose another great question: If preaching causes some to stumble (Jews) and to others preaching is foolishness (Gentiles), how does one overcome the stumbling, or the seeing of the cross as foolishness? One stays away from being stumbled by believing the light that one is given. It is only when one hardens one’s heart against the revelation that one has been given that ones becomes stumbled by the light. People are not born hardened. They become hardened by rejecting God’s truth that He has given them.

Robin, I have a very busy weekend so I don’t know how much time I can give to answer, so please excuse me for being tardy. I will start with this and go on as I have time. You asked: what is the mechanism by which one does begin to believe The very first mechanism by which one does begin to believe is that God MUST reveal Himself so that one can hear Him. I have discussed the “hearing” part here https://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/spiritually-dead-do/

gilliansnotebook, Could we assume that we have the same God but that we understand God differently?

Robin, The answer to the rest of your question about what verse 63 means, will be best answered in a new post rather than in the comment section since I am going verse by verse. I will try hard to get that done sometime in the next week if I can possibly put in the time for a post. Is that acceptable? I hope you will watch for it. Better yet why don’t you subscribe to new posts in the check box below?

Hi Robin, Welcome to The Giving blog. I have written about John 6:65 here http://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/for-this-reason/ Have a look and see if this doesn’t answer your question.

Thank you Darrell. Yes we must see verse 64 as the reason because Jesus gives this explanation just before verse 65. I think many Calvinists just gloss over verse 64 and pay no attention. But we cannot afford to ignore what explains the very words that Jesus gave as HIS reason for what He said earlier in this difficult passage.

Hi Rick, welcome to The Giving blog! You said “Verse 64 is simply a narrative of the unbelief of those hearing, because they had not been given life by the Spirit.” That cannot be true because in verse 64 the phrase “there are some of you who do not believe” is marked in the Greek as an important Sentence Point (not a lesser sub point.) In contrast the phrase from verse 63 “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” is marked as a lesser counter-point. So verse 65 “it is granted him by the Father” is an important Sentence Point as well as verse 64 “there are some of you who do not believe”. It would not be right to connect an important Sentence Point to a previous sub point from two verses before. The sub-point for verse 65 is “no one can come to me”. I am going to see if I can post the pictures under the comment section here or else I will create a new post to show the important grammar points. The important thing to note is that I have not “convoluted the meaning” because the emphases in the grammar supports my view.

Another quick point about giving unbelievers. I am thankful Rick that you agree that unbelievers are not given to Jesus. those given to Jesus are already believers in the Father before they are given to Jesus. Secondly the life-giving words that are given are giving life to believers. See verse 68 and 69 where Peter states that they go to Jesus to receive the words of eternal life and that they had already believed Him.

I created a separate post to answer the challenges of Rick Martinez. The new post is here https://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/connect-john-6-64/

If fixed the mistake. I guess I am the EDIT button, eh? 😉

Nancy, I agree with you that the term complementary is a misnomer. Patriarchy should be the term as it most aptly displays the real intent.