Cheryl Schatz

Hi Curtis,
I agree that God sent forth a woman as the first preacher of the Good News. I do not believe that this was by accident, but set up by God Himself. As far as the issue of women not disrupting the early church services, this is what we were told when we were in Israel and sitting in the ruins of a synagogue. However there are several significant problems in the passage that required my view to be different than the view that this is a saying by Paul. I have a whole hour of teaching on one of my DVDs in the 4 DVD set “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” I have put a clip of it on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zryLDmoeqso I think you will find the reasoning in the DVD quite compelling. My goal was to stick to the inspired words and grammar and that changed everything for me. The result of my study of this passage was a gratefulness that He set women free to minister and that it isn’t God who holds women back.

Joel, Regarding the Joshua 24:15 choice to serve YHWH, the choice was still valid as Joshua chose to serve the LORD God, but I agree with you that the Israelites appeared to have rejected the LORD as Joshua seems to imply that they had found it disagreeable to serve the LORD. I do think that what Joshua was saying was beyond choice and into commitment. Joshua said that he WILL serve the LORD. His commitment removed any other choice for him. Thanks for those comments. They were good. As far as Sovereignty and Responsibility as being part of the same definition, are you saying that God’s responsibility and His Sovereignty are part of the same definition and man’s responsibility is not part of the equation? As far as the “Sidewalk English” version of the Sovereignty of God, I have more to add to it. You said “He does WHAT He wants” but what has God already told us in the Scripture that He wants? It isn’t a mystery what He wants, but it is revealed. He does WHEN He wants to, because His wisdom is beyond ours and His timing is perfect. Regarding the WHOEVER and the WHATEVER REASON, He does GOOD to those who will listen to Him and for those who are stiff necked and turn away from Him, He turns them over to their sin and the consequences of their sin as the Scriptures tells us. I also think that there is things that we miss in the Sovereignty of God that doesn’t allow us to consider God’s humility. I wrote an article quite a while back on the humility of God here http://www.mmoutreach.org/wim/2010/06/21/the-humble-god/ I believe that although it seems that God is unfair on this side of eternity, when we know as we are known, I believe that we will see that God has been more than fair to us and given us more than we deserve. I also believe that when God pulls back the curtains of time, we will see all that He has done for us that we were not aware. God’s nature is goodness. He has anger but He IS NOT anger. He IS good. Thanks again for your comments. I appreciate the tone in which you offered your thoughts.

Joel, welcome to my blog. I will answer your comments in a day or two as I have company this week and little time to think and reason through your comments. Thank you in advance for your patience.

Hi gilliansnotebook, Your point is well taken. Unfortunately Calvinism has a way of thinking that any response of man becomes a challenge to God’s Sovereignty. But it seems to me that the way that Calvinists themselves think becomes a huge challenge to God’s Sovereignty. For example if you say that Jesus died for all people, they will ask, what about the people who are in hell? Jesus could not have died for them or His blood was wasted. But with this way of thinking, the choices of man have limited God. Whether man rejects God or not cannot stop God from acting. The plan of salvation cannot be thwarted because of the choice of man or God’s will is trumped by man. Jesus died for every man because He is faithful and man’s rejection cannot limited His faithfulness. I cannot imagine thinking that an obstinate person can limit the faithfulness of Jesus. It just isn’t so.

Ben, You wrote: Everyone is a God-hater until they have true belief in Jesus – those who continue on in true faith are distinguished by their works and their spiritual life. That is the whole point – the ones who listen to God, the ones who believe in Jesus, are the ones who have been given to Jesus by the Father… I appreciate that this is your belief, but the Bible doesn’t say this. Cornelius was not a God-hater until he had true belief in Jesus. He was called a God-fearer. Also Lydia was not a God-hater until she knew who Jesus was. She also was called a God-fearer. I agree that the ones who believe in Jesus are the ones who have been given to Him by the Father, but I do not see that the ones who listen to the Father were given to Jesus before they listened to the Father. The LORD of hosts says “They will be Mine” not “They already are Mine” in Malachi 3:17. The giving by the Father is of those who already belong to Him in faith and He gives these ones to Jesus so that they can believe in Him and be saved.

Ben, You said: Truly troubles me that you continue to struggle with your health and have to endure all of these tests and procedures – I hope you can find a holistic approach which cures this cancer. Thank you for your compassion! I don’t like all of the doctor’s visits and the tests, but I have entrusted myself to the care of the doctors and nurses and I am truly touched by how much they have compassion and care for those who are fighting this terrible disease. I would give myself the freedom to research and use holistic methods, but I would not use them alone. When you have a very aggressive cancer there is not a lot of time to death with it. In my case the chemo really did a great job — miraculous in fact. I will be updating my personal On the Path blog either later tonight or tomorrow as I have time. My bone scan results are in. You wrote: I asked this of you because you seemed so focussed on attempting to demonstrate that those who are given to Jesus are the ones who fear God; i.e. the Father offers salvation to all, and then gives people to Jesus who have already come to Jesus through their humble fear of the Lord. No, that is not what I believe. For example Lydia did not already come to Jesus before she was given to Jesus. The giving to Jesus happens before the coming to Jesus. I will explain more in the next post that I am working on. You wrote: The main idea I see you presenting is that for anyone to come to Jesus, they simply have to fear the Lord, and then the Father sees their sincerity and gives them to Jesus in the act of regeneration, adoption, justification, etc. If I have misunderstood you, forgive me. No, that is not what I believe. First of all I don’t believe that anyone can simply “fear the Lord” on their own. Neither do I believe that the Father sees people’s “sincerity”. I also do not believe that Abraham is the Father of sincerity. Again, I think the next post will explain more and if it is still not clear, I welcome questions. Ben you wrote: This is why I believe it would be a work, because God’s “election” is suddenly conditional on something in the person, namely their fear of the Lord. I don’t have a specific verse that speaks like this, because I believe the Bible clearly teaches unconditional election, i.e. that God chooses His people from before the foundation of the world based on the good pleasure of His will (Ephesians 1), and not due to some desirable characteristic in the people. No, I wouldn’t say things this way at all. It is not “suddenly conditional” if God has created conditions for receiving what He has already paid for. Rather it would be a plan from before the creation of the earth and the conditions would be written and communicated over and over again, not just once. A condition for salvation is not a work, unless God identifies the fear of God, or faith in God’s revelation as a work. I have not seen such a thing, so I think we can both agree that the fear of God is not a “work” of man. I think we would both agree that faith in God is not a work of man. You wrote: My statement was worded to repeat the same principle twice, namely that it seemed as though you were saying that “coming to Jesus is conditional on the character of the person”, in discussing the root condition for the Father giving people to the Son. Again, forgive my misunderstanding of your position. Apology accepted and thanks for clarifying that. So hopefully I can make this clear that I do not believe that “coming to Jesus” is conditional on the “character” of the person. I will continue in the next comment.

Ben, You wrote: CHERYL: “According to this passage, what is the LORD of hosts paying attention to? (verse 16) Why is a “book of remembrance” written before God? (vs 16) What promise does the LORD of hosts make following the attention he paid to them and because He heard what was said by these people? (vs 17) What is the “possession” that is prepared by the LORD of hosts and who are spared by the LORD of hosts? (vs 17) Again, with all of the other passages you cited, you fail to discuss just why anyone fears the Lord at all. Your questions are perfectly solid in looking at Malachi 3 (esp. vv. 16-18), but do not specify how the people came to “listen” to God, “feared the Lord and esteemed His name.” Do you believe that man has the ability in him or herself to fear the Lord, without having a new heart beforehand? Do you believe that God gives the grace to fear God to everyone, and then leaves the decision to listen and respond to every person? This is why I believe we need to stick to the immediate context of John 6, especially in regards to the blunt statement Jesus made regarding the unbelief of the crowd who could see and hear Jesus perfectly well, but were not able to come to Jesus because they had not been drawn by the Father…. You are looking for why anyone fears the Lord, but in the Malachi 3 passage, the fear of the Lord follows many reasons why people chose to respond in the fear of the LORD. In Malachi 3:1 God gives a prophecy of the coming of the Messiah. He is called the “messenger of the covenant” and he will “suddenly” come to His temple. Next God talks about the need for fear “But who can endure the day of His coming?…He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver… Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me,” says the LORD of hosts. God gives warnings as well as promises to those who will listen. The LORD of hosts says to “test” Him “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out a blessings until it overflows”. God always, always gives reason to fear Him. The fear of the Lord is not conquered up in the heart of a man. It is a response to the warning of God and the promises for those who will heed the warning. It is God-centered. It is always conditional. Malachi verse 16 says Then those who fear the LORD spoke to one another… The first action belongs to God. The response is conditional upon hearing and fearing. Ben, you wrote: Do you believe that man has the ability in him or herself to fear the Lord, without having a new heart beforehand? A new heart is given for one to serve God and for one to walk in His ways. But the bible never says that one must have a new heart in order to fear God. If you have found a verse like this, please let me know where it is. You wrote: Do you believe that God gives the grace to fear God to everyone, and then leaves the decision to listen and respond to every person? I am not sure which verse you are referring to, because I have not seen a reference to God needing to give people “grace” in order for them to fear Him. I do believe that God MUST reveal Himself and reveal truth in order for a person to fear Him. You wrote: This is why I believe we need to stick to the immediate context of John 6, especially in regards to the blunt statement Jesus made regarding the unbelief of the crowd who could see and hear Jesus perfectly well, but were not able to come to Jesus because they had not been drawn by the Father…. Malachi 3 is very relevant to John 6 and there are passages that are fulfilled in John 6. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old. Yet the context of John 6 and the book of John will buttress the meaning of the sayings of Jesus. You are quite right that the context is key. And it is true that no one could come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. The drawing comes first, not the coming. But the giving comes before the coming as well. More in next comment.

Hey Ben, I am preparing a new blog post called “Why are people not coming to Jesus?” It will be set up as a summary of John 6 to verse 45 on the question of why people do not and cannot come to Jesus. I will also provide a link to Jesus’ statements in the book of John that tie in with His statements in John 6. Fair enough? In essence it will include what Jesus is talking about in verse 64, 65 even though I have not reached those verses ion the verse by verse posts. Would it be okay if I finished the new blog post, and put a link to the new post here at this comment section and then could I please have your permission to enter your challenge to my challenge post page here http://www.mmoutreach.org/tg/challenges/ ? I would also provide the link to my answer after your challenges posted there. The main reason I want to do it this way is because many people don’t read the comments, just the posts. I also want to keep a record of the questions/challenges and links to the answers for people who are also interested in the same challenge questions. Ben, also I would really like it if you would at some point in time consider answering the questions I asked in my three comments above? I understand that this is my blog and I am welcoming questions, and I do not demand answers of commenters, but it is so helpful for me to “hear” your answers so that I can really understand where you are coming from. One of my mottos is to seek first to understand and then to be understood. It is almost impossible for one to be understood if that person does not understand the obstacles that make communication very difficult. If you don’t want to answer, that is okay, but if you are willing at some point to answer my questions, it would be beneficial to me (and I am sure also to those who do read the comments).

BTW for anyone interested I had a bone scan today. It was an all day affair at a hospital away from home. I have an appointment tomorrow with my doctor and I should be getting the printout of my scan. I am really praying that God will give me His grace and mercy as I find out whether the cancer has spread or not.

Benjamin, I will go back to your first post. My question was “Can you show a single Scripture that shows a God-hater is given to Jesus?” You gave Ephesians 2:1-10, and this is a wonderful passage showing that we are saved by grace alone, that our salvation is a gift to us. However what I am looking for is where we are given to Jesus, not where salvation (and Jesus) is given to us. If you have a Scripture showing the giving in that direction, I would consider it. Titus 3:3-7 is also a wonderful salvation passage where God pours out the Holy Spirit TO us, however, I don’t see in the passage where it says people are being given to Jesus nor do I see that God haters are given to Him. Benjamin you said: I ask you, Cheryl, can you show where being a God-lover is the basis upon which the person is given to Jesus? If there is something in the person which entices the Father to give that person to Jesus, then you have just introduced works salvation into the picture. Your question deserves to be answered. I do have to admit that I have never seen loving God or fearing God called a “work”. Can you explain why someone responding to the Father in a godly fear would be calling “working” for his salvation? Would you be able to give me a verse that deals with the conclusion because honestly, I have never seen it. As far as a passage where people are being given to Jesus because God pays attention to their fear of Him, look carefully at Malachi 3:16-18. Malachi 3:16–18 (NASB) 16Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. 17“They will be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.” 18So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him. According to this passage, what is the LORD of hosts paying attention to? (verse 16) Why is a “book of remembrance” written before God? (vs 16) What promise does the LORD of hosts make following the attention he paid to them and because He heard what was said by these people? (vs 17) What is the “possession” that is prepared by the LORD of hosts and who are spared by the LORD of hosts? (vs 17) Why does He say that there must be a distinguishing of people rather than calling all people as God-haters? (vs 17) I will answer your next question in another comment box.

Benjamin, You asked: Seeing that you cite the Old Testament to set up this supposed tension and contradiction, why did anyone in the old covenant serve God? I believe that we can safely answer this question by going back to Abraham. Abraham was seen as righteous because he believed God. When someone believes God and puts their trust in Him in response to His actions toward them, like Abraham they will serve God naturally as an outworking of their faith. I do not believe that you answered my question about God paying attention to those who fear Him. I do think it is important. Notice in Malachi 4:2 – Malachi 4:2 (NASB) “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. Malachi says that for you who fear His name, the sun of righteousness will rise… Who is the sun of righteousness? He will rise (or come forth) for who? Benjamin, you said: Again, the burden of proof is on you, Cheryl, to provide a biblical basis that election is conditional on the character of the person, or more simply that the Father gives to the Son based on the one who is given… I didn’t say that coming to Jesus is conditional on the character of the person. I would say that coming to Jesus is conditional on believing the Father. The second part of your statement “the Father gives to the Son based on the one who is given”. I don’t understand this. Would you be able to flesh this out so I understand what you are hearing me say? Thanks! I am going to create a new post that ties John 6:37-45 together with what Jesus had already said in the book of John. I hope that this will make things clear enough that you can understand me. I believe that understanding and hearing is important. I try hard to be this kind of person, but I am not perfect either in the listening department. I want to learn to do better at hearing, understanding, and reflecting back. If I misunderstand, please correct me.

Joshua, You said: You seem to be assuming synergism and using John 6.37 to show this passage is synergistic. First you have to prove the bible teaches synergism. You read synergism into this passage. I never used the word “synergism” and I don’t think that we would have a meeting of the minds of what this word means. Would you be so kind as to describe what you understand as synergism? Also let me know what you think that I am reading something into the passage? Joshua, you wrote: If this was a synergistic message, what would they have taken offense to? Again, I never used the term “synergistic” message so perhaps you could use another word or explain what you mean? As far as the disciples taking offence at Jesus, are you meaning the 11 disciples (excluding Judas) or do you mean the crowd, or the pharisees? Do you see the 11 disciples as grumbling against Jesus? I will be putting a post up on why the Jews took offence at Jesus and I will work hard to get more posts up as quick as I can. I have a full time ministry job and this is part of my work, but it is not the part that has deadlines like the accounting, tax filing, magazine work, video editing, etc. But since my treatments are over and I am getting back to “normal”, I would like to make this blog more of my focus as we prepare for our DVD project. I am also working on a new shopping cart that will allow us to sell video downloads of our DVDs. There is a lot on my plate, but my heart is in the issue of the Sovereignty of God. Joshua, you wrote: I too will be praying your surgery goes perfectly. Thank you so much for your prayers! You brothers have been compassionate and caring and that is wonderful for me to see! My surgery went well and I am “working” on healing now. I am not allowed to lift my right arm very much for a couple of weeks so that the stitches won’t tear. Other than that, my tiredness is getting better and I am very well. Thank you!

Benjamin, You wrote: “Do you believe that all people belong to the Father?” Yes, in the sense that He is the Creator of every human being, and hence is sovereign over all of His creation. In other words, he is Lord and King over the universe, and hence “owns” everything in that universe. If you are using “belong” in the sense of the family of God, well the Bible is abundantly clear that only those who have been given to the Son, those who have been chosen by the Father, are adopted into the kingdom of God, and hence are partakers of the divine nature and can claim the promises of the new covenant as their own. Would you say that if all people belong to the Father because He is the Creator, then would not all people belong to the Word of God as He is also the Creator? As Father as my question about all people belonging to the Father, I would like to frame my question around the time of John 6. This was before Jesus died and before the New Covenant had been set up by the blood of Christ. As far as the Father, were there people who belonged to Him who were in relationship with Him by faith that needed to come to Jesus for salvation? Or would you say that all people (including the 11 disciples) were God-haters before they became Jesus’ disciples? Benjamin, you wrote: Will be praying for your surgery and recovery! God is our greatest treasure… Thank you SO much! God indeed is our greatest treasure! And Jesus is our Pearl of great price. I wish I could help more people to see the greatest treasurer that there is came to earth to give His blood for us so that we would be saved. That transaction is far more than I can comprehend sometimes. My value is nothing at all in comparison to Him!

Welcome to The Giving blog, Benjamin. Also thank you for your prayers! I really appreciate that gift. I am just experiencing tiredness right now so have to pace myself as I heal. The body seems to have a way to signal you to slow down so the healing process can begin once again. I appreciate that you took the time to comment and give me a challenge as well. I believe that challenges as well as responses deserve to be answered. I firmly believe that if one believes they have the truth, they should be willing to be challenged by Scripture and by reason. I guess I just never understood why so many back away from a challenge. It is my view that if one is right a challenge will just confirm that in a stronger way. If one is wrong, then the challenge has sharpened and corrected. Either way it is a win-win situation where iron sharpens iron if one loves the truth more than their own rightfulness. Having said that I would like to digest your comments and answer back when I have more clarity of mind and body. My tiredness right now after surgery yesterday tells me I still need a little more time away to let things go and not to push myself too soon. I liked what you said about God. I do believe that God is our treasure. It reminds me of a man who bought a field just to get the treasure that resided within the field. The Lord Jesus is much more of a treasurer than any treasurer this world has. We need to hold onto Him as a pure treasure who is worth far more than we could ever imagine. Thank you again for your comments. I will get back to you as soon as I am capable.

Joshua, Welcome also to The Giving blog. I also appreciate that you took the time to stop by and comment. I will reread your comments and questions and expect to answer you back this coming week. Thank you for your patience during this time of my recovery.

Maverick, I would also like to welcome you to The Giving blog and ask you a favour. Your comment “This is the worst attempt at refuting Reformed theology.” was very unhelpful. What exactly are you referring to? If you could be so kind as to back up your statement with a problem you saw or a question you had, I would try to answer in a respectful manner. If this is all you have to say, please know that it doesn’t come across as someone who took the time to read and interact. It really has little meaning to me without context. In my ministry with those in the cults, I often have Mormons emailing me about how terrible things are written about their faith on our ministry web sites. I tell them that I am unaware of error, but if they could point out the error and show where it is wrong from Mormon sources, I will research it for myself and if there is error, we will correct it. About 99.99% of Mormons that contact me in this manner, never respond back because they are not interested in a discussion of truth. They just want to unload and move on. If you are looking to unload and move on, then you are not likely looking for my answer anyway. I hope that others reading this will see what kind of comments promotes dialog and what comments have little value in pursuing. It is a strong desire of mine to keep this blog open to respectful dialog of brothers and sisters in Christ who are on opposite ends of the issue of the Sovereignty of God. I think we can benefit by hearing and understanding one another and I know of no other way to accomplish that other than treating all in the honor due them in Christ.

Hi Benjamin, Welcome to The Giving blog. Thank you for your comments and your challenge. I will answer your comments soon. I am going in for surgery in the morning and so will get back to my blog comments as soon as I can. One question I have before I get back here: Do you believe that all people belong to the Father?

Hi Gillian, I will answer your second question first. I would say that within Calvinism there is false doctrine. This false doctrine can have serious consequences and this is the reason why I care so much about defending the truth. Paul helps us in 2 Timothy 2:24-26 to understand the difference between false doctrine and a precious soul who is worth fighting for to help that one to see truth. We can hate the false doctrine, but we should love those who hold to that false doctrine. Loving them will help me grow in patience. Who really are the ones in opposition? Who need to have repentance to escape the snare of the enemy? If I believe that Calvinists who are attacking the gospel that says Jesus died for all, are themselves misled and are snared by their false doctrine, then I must be gentle to them when I correct them so that they will not harden themselves from listening to what I have to say. My goal is to win them through a careful exposition of Scripture as I am gentle and kind to them. It is not my purpose to laugh at them as if I alone have the truth and they are beneath me as I have heard Calvinist apologists do to Christians who do not believe as they do, for I am out to win them not push them away. I have had a lot of experience in having my patience tested by JW’s and former JW’s whom I have reached out to with the gospel. If I lose my cool and my patience, I am not an example of Jesus and they go away made stronger in their belief. But if I learn where the back doors are to the false doctrine and I engage them in areas that they may have never considered before, and I do it with a soft voice and in a gentle manner, I have been able to reach them. It appears to me that this is the way of the Master. Paul was a great example of this and Paul teaches us not to be quarrelsome when we engage those who are steeped in false doctrine. Our goal should be to teach them insights from the Scripture and our gentleness gains us a hearing. If my approach causes their blood to boil, then I have more work to do to gain a hearing. Sometimes all I can do is to ask thought-provoking questions. That may just put a stone in their shoe that will get their attention and cause them to think about the questions when they have left. If that is all I can do, I have planted and I will trust God to send someone to water the seed. That is how I would want someone to treat me if I were the one who were in error. I really appreciate the way you responded. It was gentle and kind and you were very good at getting your point across. It was an excellent question to ask!

Welcome to my blog, Denise! I am so happy that you have been helped by what you found on this blog. May the Lord richly bless you!

Gillian, Calvinists do believe that God is omniscient. They just disagree HOW He is omniscient. They define omniscience by God’s Sovereignty, so that the knowledge of the future comes from God’s Sovereign choice. Thus God sovereignly chooses every event and every act and by sovereignly choosing, He has omniscience. In contrast, those who are not Calvinists may not fully understand how God is who He is, but they believe what He says. So I may not understand how God can be everywhere at the same time (omnipresence), but I can believe His word that He is. That allows me not to worry about how God can be God, but I can put my full trust in His ability to be what He claims to be. In the area of omniscient, I don’t have to know how God in His nature can know the future fully before it happens, but I can believe that He does know. I can also believe that He knows the future without decreeing the evil of the future. This is consistent with His holy nature and the fact that He has said in the OT that the evil of sacrificing one’s child to burn it in the fire to an idol did not enter His mind as an origin of this evil. So I believe that Calvinists can believe that God is omniscient while going off the rails on how He is omniscient. As far as whether Calvinists believe that God is just and righteous. This is an area that Calvinism has a difficult time. Calvinists can affirm their belief in God righteous standing and His Just judgments, but it is difficult for them to explain how determinism is just. It becomes a mystery. Those of us who do not accept Calvinism and who believe the Bible as it is written, want to accept God’s justice as it is written in the Scripture, rather than a mysterious and contradictory view of justice. It is true that if a human judge acted as the Calvinists believe God acts, we would consider him an unjust judge. That is also very hard for a Calvinist to explain. I also know some ex-JW’s who have become Calvinists after their conversion to Christ. I do want to be gentle with them helping them to see the holes in their doctrine so they don’t lose faith in God as they see the patient Savior from the pages of the Bible who is fully Sovereign, but who is not bound by His Sovereignty to act as man thinks a Sovereign God should act. I try hard to think how I would want to be approached if I was the one who was deceived. If I want a gentle, loving and caring individual to help me to see the truth for myself, then I must also endeavour to me that same loving and caring individual who gently guides a person into truth. I don’t want to be like many Calvinists who come across as prideful, nasty and close-minded. I have come across a few gentle Calvinists who have let me ask them questions about the contradictions in Calvinism, but most Calvinists whom I have come in contact with have been willing to attack the person when they can’t answer the questions. I pray for unity in the body of Christ so that we can all properly represent God both with our doctrine and our attitude. I believe that God is able to bring about this kind of unity, although it may seem difficult to believe in the natural. Gillian, thanks so much for your comments! I am glad that you are willing to think these things through and to push for understanding and truth.

Thanks for your comment Gillian. You are right in that Calvinists believe that if one could choose God by accepting God’s invitation, then that person is in charge. Calvinists also believe that God cannot know the future unless He predestines everything in the future. Without predestination, Calvinists would be open theists, believing that God does not know the future. A good question for Calvinists would be, does God have the power to know the future completely without first having predestined the future completely? They cannot answer that God has this power thus He has to make the choice for everyone by electing them or creating them with the knowledge that He will bypass them and leave them in their sin. It is so sad that Calvinists see God without the power to see what He does not predestine and without saving love for so many.

Holly,
Good comments. When we put women down to a lower level, we are actually lowering God as well. He becomes limited. It takes away His ability to have an intimate relationship with half the human race. Those who limit women seem to have no idea that they are also limiting God’s ability to empower, fill, gift and make choices.

Patrice, Sorry that your comments were left in moderation for so long. The notification must have come through to me when I was ill and I missed seeing it. Thanks for your patience.

Ann Marie, It wasn’t his salvation that was the issue of doubt. The doubt was whether Jesus was the Messiah. This meant that John was doubting both the Father and the Spirit who were witnesses to him about Jesus. John had received the greatest witness and the greatest revelation of any man. What further witness would he believe? The fact that John disbelieved the witness of God and was looking for a further witness makes his unbelief very troublesome. If you had the great revelations that John had would you fail to keep believing that Jesus is the Messiah?

I should also note, Ann Marie, that you asked a fair question. I hope I was able to show why the failure to remain in faith with Jesus as the Messiah was a very serious lack of belief in God’s special revelation to him.

Zec,

The fact that you do not use the creation account of God’s intention for male and female in both their job descriptions as “ruler” and for marriage is quite revealing. To disregard creation is unwise.

You said:

Cheryl, you know what you are and what you’re doing. You are the woman with the haughty eyes and you are tearing your house down around you simply out of spite.

You apparently have not read my blog through and you are making an ad hominem attack against me which is also not wise since you cannot read my heart or my thoughts.

There is no New Testament passage that gives authority to the husband over a wife, where equal authority is not given to the wife over her husband’s body.

As far as Tom being in “perpetual moderation”, I intend to take his comments out when I have the time to give a deep answer to his accusations. I always strive to do the very best that I can with the text and the last year the project I was working on was far more important although I have started on the answer to Tom. I do hope to release the full answer as I am able to with my current fight against cancer and going through chemotherapy.

As far as being in perpetual moderation, I will indeed put you on moderation because your attack against the person rather than addressing an argument makes you unsafe. You should read the Disclaimer page here http://www.mmoutreach.org/wim/disclaimer/ to understand the proper way to give your opinions on this blog. We are to have a Christ-like attitude and with respect. Thank you for taking the time to read the disclaimer before you post again.

As for you, please give me the Scripture that tells a woman that her husband is to be her covering. If you cannot give a verse that says this, can you explain why you have a doctrine without biblical support?

Psalm 146:3

Scott,
The only “covering” that a woman, or a man needs, is the covering of God. No mere human being can be our covering.

As far as God the Son there is no superior “role” of one over the other. Who had the “role” of Creator? Who had the “role” of Savior? There is not just one Person of the Trinity who fit the one “role”.

As far as the Father being “greater” than the Son, this must be kept in its context or we find ourselves in the camp with the JW’s and other cults. Jesus said this while He was in His position of humility on earth after He had limited Himself, and humbled Himself to come to earth. Nowhere does Jesus the exalted man after His resurrection ever say that the Father is “greater” than He is. You said that you “think” that the Father will be “greater” than the Son in eternity. Can you quote such a verse that says this?

The Bible does not say that Jesus hands over the “lead position” to the Father. It says He hands over the “kingdom”. But this in no way means that the kingdom no longer belongs to Jesus for the bible says that of His kingdom there will be no end. See Luke 1:33 and Isaiah 9:7.

Yes the Father gave authority to Jesus while he was in His humbled position on earth, BECAUSE he had gave everything up to live as a man. Note that ALL authority in Heaven and on earth was given to Jesus. No SOME authority.

So where does the Bible say that the Father had no authority while He gave Jesus ALL authority? And where does the Bible say that Jesus will have no authority in the end or where does it say that Jesus gives His authority back to the Father?

I think you will better understand the faulty position that makes Jesus in some way less than the Father and having less authority than the Father, by watching my DVD “The Trinity Eternity Past to Eternity Future, Explaining Truth Exposing Error” Parts 2 and 3 involve the future of the Son and where His limitations regarding His humanity compare to His position in the Trinity. The DVD set can be purchased on Amazon.com here

http://www.amazon.com/Trinity-Eternity-Future-Explaining-Exposing/dp/B001ID8582

Once you have viewed the teaching which is several hours long, I would be happy to answer any questions that you have on the matter of Jesus in the Trinity and any further questions on the “limited” position of Jesus that you seem to espouse.

I hope this helps!

I am responding to Anthony who posted on the old post at http://www.strivetoenter.com/wim/2008/09/19/is-a-womans-voice-filthy/ The old post has the comments closed and all discussion is now on this new site.

Anthony wrote:

I believe in equal rights and a woman should have a voice but not for the sole purpose for trying to out-do a man or prove that she can be a powerhouse but to contribute to humanity.

We cannot see what is inside a person’s heart, but the statement you made is equally valid of a man. i.e. you could have said: “I believe in equal rights and a man should have a voice but not for the sole purpose for trying to out-do a woman or prove that he can be a powerhouse but to contribute to humanity.”

When we walk in the Spirit, we will live in the fruit of the Spirit and the problems of lording it over others will not be an issue.

Anthony wrote:

Some women just want to be heard just like some men but she should understand her role just like the women in the scriptures because I haven’t ran across any scriptures that ever said that a woman was a preacher, teacher, apostle-less, bishop,..but they were prophetesses which means God has put messages in their hearts that he wanted to be delivered and this was the purpose of a prophetess..to deliver messages but not to preach if god didn’t place a word for her she said nothing, and she didn’t add anything extra to the message, they took instructions seriously and they understood their roles, a message from God is just as powerful as a sermon, but it’s not to be abused on any level..and I personally believe that woman play a part in ministry just like men as long as they are obedient to their roles just like men should be.

God Himself determines our gifts and God did not limit women in preaching nor did He limit them in receiving and giving out a message from Himself. No limitations on gifts is ever placed upon the receiver of the gift except that the gift is to be used for the benefit of all. If we take a different view, then we are fighting God Himself who is the giver of the gifts.

Anthony wrote:

MANY of us should not even be in office just because we have spiritual gifts I say discover how God wants you to use that gift and not the way YOU want to..that is why many will say LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied and cast out demons in your name..why will he say depart from me I NEVER knew you..that is very serious and frightening! Feel free to comment back, this was not intended to start a spiritual conflict just voicing an opinion of why I think most men (from my experience)have a problem with female spiritual leadership.

When we deal with women in ministry we assume that we are talking about genuine believers. Anthony, your comment about Jesus saying “I NEVER knew you” shows that the person was never a believer and that does not part of the issue of women in ministry.

I also do not believe this is the reason why most men have an issue with women in ministry. At least it has not been voiced this way on my blog. The issue has been primarily about a privileged role for males alone that somehow suffers when a gifted woman uses her gifts in what is considered a male-only privilege so that she operates only under the fear of God rather than the fear of man.