Cheryl Schatz

Martin,

Great!  Thanks!  Yes, good point about mystery.  I think you are referring to Lorri’s portion.  So many pastors today continue to tell people that they don’t need to try to understand what the Trinity is because it is supposed to be a “mystery”.  Yet even as a great truth hidden from before and now revealed it is still so overwhelming. It is kind of like the attributes of God.  How can Jesus be here on earth in the flesh and yet be everywhere in the Spirit?  Lots of things that are hard to understand, but the incarnation certainly is a great truth, finally unveiled.

Amy,

Your point is well-taken.  Some may say though that Priscilla still could teach an Apollos and so if they wanted to, they could find a loop hole in their high walls set up to keep women out of their learning process.

The thing that I haven’t quite been able to get my head across is why God chooses to send women to defend women in ministry.  Someone asked me a long time ago why my husband or another man didn’t do the DVD – at least as far as the on-screen presentation.  The reason is simply that God didn’t call him to do that and the passion that I have for this subject would not be able to be recreated by someone else.  So why does God send women when he knows that many men will not listen to a woman?  I don’t know.  God is sovereign.  I do remember that Jesus said that his parables were for some to understand and others were not to understand the meaning of the parables.  Why?  For reasons that God only knows, he sometimes chooses to harden already hardened hearts.  Is it so that these hardened hearts will become so hard that the rest of the church can clearly see the fruit of this movement?  I don’t know.  Perhaps.  Whatever God does is okay with me and I am not responsible for the results that are in God’s hands.  I wish I understood all the “whys” but perhaps it just isn’t for me to know.

The bottom line is that I do not want to emulate what they are doing.  I want to keep my heart soft so that if I am wrong, I can humbly be corrected.  I never want to harden my heart against truth even if I am sure I have the truth.  Truth is provable and it is winsome to the open heart.  Truth trumps error any day.  Those who harden their heart against the truth are in a dangerous position and God will judge the motives of their heart in his time.

Rachel,

Thanks for the update!  God is indeed good and his way is perfect.  Keep following hard after God and he will not fail to lead you in the way that he desires.

Corrie #15,

The way I look at it, it all boils down to control, power, fleshly ambition, and the need to be the greatest in the Kingdom without actually doing what it takes (being servant to all) to be the greatest.

This is well said.  Wanting preeminence without doing what is necessary for preeminence (giving up of one’s own ambition and humbling oneself to serve others) is taking a short cut to leadership.  But there is no such short cut in the Kingdom of light.  Jesus gave no other way than the way he lived out his leadership – and that is humble servanthood, caring for the sheep above caring for one’s own needs.  We have way too many egos in leadership that have been allowed to circumvent the Lord’s way.

Greg,

Your words about mothers and grandmothers of the pastors there who acted in a rude fashion made me laugh.

Corrie #12,

You said:

Surely they do not believe that everyone who speaks to a group of people is in an authoritative role?  If they do, then we are in trouble.

What I have found is that the issue is so often hidden by the claim that it is about pastors and elders, but the fact is that they stop a woman from speaking to men, implying that the mere act of teaching men is an “authoritative” role.  Their thinking seems to be that teaching the scriptures is something that requires taking authority over another person.  But I ask does a woman have authority over another woman when she teaches her the bible?  Apparently they don’t see women teaching women as taking authority over other women since they believe that teaching the word of God “with authority” is something that only men can do.  If the same woman taught the same stuff to men that she taught to women, she is “usurping” authority that rightfully belongs to men.  I find their reasoning confusing with much “sleight of hand” changes and redefinitions.

It is my personal opinion, that after hearing Anne Graham Lotz speak on heaven, that the men in that room were intimidated by her obvious gifting from the Lord and that she shines brightly as someone who knows God’s word and how to present it.  She is an amazing orator and is certainly by far one of the best I have ever heard.  It is sometimes hard to admit, because of pride, that someone is better at something than we are, especially when that someone is a woman.  🙂

I agree.  I can hear Anne Graham Lotz’s passion when I hear her preach.  And she focuses on Jesus which makes her preaching so powerful.

Turning their chairs around is an act of an immature toddler.   These are not men of God.  These are toddlers who need a a time-out. The real men of God in that room were the ones who didn’t act like silly children and who were secure in their manhood enough that they could enjoy her presentation and be blessed by her words of wisdom.

Well said!!

What conference was this at?  When did this incident take place?

Mrs. Lotz wrote that this was in the beginning of her ministry so that would have been quite a number of years ago.  I also heard her on TV giving this same story.  I don’t think she mentioned where the incident took place or who exactly was involved.  It was a defining moment for Anne.  It humiliated her and satan wanted to destroy her so that she would quit her work for Christ.  But Anne did what all of us should do in a humbling moment like this.  She went to Jesus.  He gave her such a confidence from the word of God that she was doing what was right and that she was in his will that she forgave those men and went on in her work with great boldness continuing to preach the word.
Moments like this can either make us or break us.  We can let the bad behavior of others define out ministry, or we can walk forth in boldness with our egos given to Jesus.  It takes great boldness to walk out before an audience to preach God’s word, knowing that many in the audience are judging us as sinning against God.  What Anne Graham Lotz did was put everything into focus.  She would one day stand before God and give an account of her ministry call.  She must obey Jesus and not men.  Those same men will also stand before Jesus and give an account of what they did.
If I remember right, Mrs. Lotz said in an interview on TV that men like this must not usurp God’s authority over his own sheep in that they must not physically stop women from ministering.  We can deal with the shame that is leveled our way, but if any were to physically stop her from speaking, then the ones who did this would have to answer directly to God himself for their actions.  She hoped that it would never come to this because her desire is to serve Jesus in everyway that He has called her.  No one should stand in the way of a godly woman going about the business of the Lord Jesus.

Rex Ray #9,

I liked your story about the basketball coach.  It shows that the behavior can be easy evaluated and seen for what it is when we remove the religious element.

Elizabeth,

There i no doubt in my mind that the protest was staged and was planned to be rude.  They all knew that she was going to be a guest speaker.  If their consciences were that weak, they should have stayed home or gone elsewhere instead of deliberately making an issue out of the word of God being preached by someone who was not of the “right” gender.  If they really believed that she was doing something wrong merely because of her gender, they should have taken her aside after the meeting as discreetly as Priscilla and Aquilla did when they discreetly took Apollos aside and corrected him.  It is not a godly thing to disgrace and embarrass a fellow believer in public in that manner.

Don #6,

You are right in that the question should be no who can teach, but who should listen.  If a person’s conscience is bothered by listening to a teacher, then they should do the right thing by leaving.  Let the godly teacher continue to teach while the one’s whose conscience is bothered, leave.

Jeremy,
No problem.  I am also very glad that you welcome intelligent debate.  I am that way myself.

Lin,

Great thoughts and you are right on!

Pastor Billy,

I loved that you rightly called it “The Christ Model of Leadership” in Matthew 20 and not the “male” model of leadership.  All of us, men and women are to follow Christ’s model.  It is God-ordained that the entire body of Christ has one role model not a male Messiah and a female Messiah.  To be like Christ should be the cry of our heart – and that works itself out through serving one another.

Thank you for commenting and I welcome you here!

Rex Ray,

Your comment…

What would these stupid men have done if Billy Graham had introduced his daughter?

…really gave me food for thought.  I doubt that if Billy Graham would have been there to introduce his daughter that they would have acted in such a shameful way.  But if that would have been the case then they are doubly prejudiced.

I welcome you as well and hope that you come back to share your comments here.  Even your typo was well stated!

One good thing is the interest shown in this subject that gives me great hope for the church.  I have been filling orders all day for the Trinity DVD with sets going out as far away as Australia and throughout North America.  I hope and pray that those who view this DVD set will pass the word to their pastors and other Christians who have fallen prey to a lower view of Jesus in the Trinity.

Frank,

Thank you for your kind words!  I have appreciated Dr. Jon Zens in all the help and encouragement that he has given to me in my efforts to lift up the Word of God.  His support has truly warmed my heart and given me a boost towards our continuing to speak forth the truth with courage and without fear.

Lin,

CBMW is consistently pointing to “creation order” but has failed time and time again to provide one iota of proof that Adam was created to rule over Eve or that Eve was created to be under the rule of her husband.

Here we go again with creation order. Start with a wrong premise and end with heresy.

Amen!  This is what happens when we allow the doctrines of men to become established without a challenge.  They present their wrong premise as if it is a fact and then build a house upon sand.  In the end they have dishonored the Lord Jesus who bought them in order to lift themselves up as males who have a special unique spiritual calling.  We must fight the good fight of faith without wavering because Jesus is being deprived of his full equality in the Godhead.

I cannot thank you guys enough for making this DVD that is so clear and simple to follow…and backed up with nothing but the Word.

Thank you Lin for such wonderful words of praise.

Our goal was to present the biblical doctrine of the Trinity using only the Bible as our source.  While it is tempting to argue the Trinity by the creeds and the early Church Fathers, the Bible is the only reliable source.  We have already seen how Bruce Ware and other CBMW leaders have distorted the words of the church fathers and so our desire was to let the Bible speak for itself.  The absence of Old Testament scriptures that teach the eternal subordination of the Lord of Hosts but do teach in his amazing equality of essence and function defeats hands down CBMW’s reliance on using only New Testament scriptures that focus on the humanity of Jesus Christ.  Their silence on the Old Testament record of the Trinity is most telling and should be shouted from the housetops to sincere bible believers that CBMW and crew have given a distorted partial picture of the Trinity while claiming to present a clear eternal picture of Jesus.  Their arguments follow the pattern of the cults and after seeing the distortions of Jesus in the cults since the 1980’s (for me) and since the 1970’s (for Lorri) we could hardly hold back our dismay and our determination to expose these false views that have entered the church that belongs to Jesus.

I was also a bit surprised to see that Ware is using 1 Corin 11 as his foundation for the eternal subordination of Jesus Christ. Once again, we see Kephale being interpreted as meaning ’ruler and authority’ when it does not mean that at all. Starting with presuppositions that are not true and ending up with Jesus as eternally subordinated.

Ware has ripped scripture from its context and he has done this before thousands of pastors who should know better but who have kept silent.  We are guilty of idolizing men and refusing to call them to account because they are popular and speak with authority.  Those who should be protecting the flock are letting false teaching in without lifting a finger to stop it.  We trust that our efforts in this DVD set will awaken godly pastors who have been deceived into thinking that the earthly subordination of Christ is an eternal truth. Wake up oh men of God and take the Word of God as a sword of the Spirit to fight for truth.  Once Jesus is allowed to be placed in an unequal position of unequal authority and unequal honor, every other essential doctrine of the church is ripe to be distorted and destroyed.  If pastors will not stand up for Jesus, the sheep are going to go around the pastors.

Corrie,

The clip on youtube was very good and what I would like to know is how Ware handles the fact that Jesus specifically tells His disciples to ask Him anything and it will be done for them.

Ware skirts the clear biblical command of Jesus to ask Him anything and “He” will be the one who answers the prayers, by saying that only the apostles are allowed to have this relationship with Jesus in prayer.  He says that since they walked with Jesus on the earth and knew him in the flesh, then they alone are given the privilege of praying to Jesus.  We, on the other hand, according to Ware, are to pray only to the Father and therefore our relationship is with the Father, but through the Son, who is responsible for taking the prayers to the Father.  It is very much like JW theology.

I too have been concerned about the CBMW teaching that the unique position of submission of wives will be continued in heaven.  Yet at the same time their position is the logical consequence of their faulty theology.  It is not biblical but it logically follows their error.  I would like to do an article on this subject in the near future as it troubles me a lot.  The strong stand of several CBMW speakers who attach salvation to a “correct” understanding of “manhood” and “womanhood” also concerns me very much.  They have moved from a restrictive position on women to a very divisive position in the church.  I hope that those who are sitting on the fence on this issue are now able to clearly see the danger in teaching that God has created a spiritual difference between men and women that gives men unlimited access to their gifts from God for the use of the entire body of Christ, while restricting God’s gifts given through women forcing some women to be prejudiced against their brothers in Christ.  When we do not stand up against this forced prejudice and speak the truth of God with love, the body of Christ is hurt and our united witness before the world is also hurt.

To me, the Trinity is their Trojan Horse and this article is proof that their thoughts on Christ’s subordination go much, much deeper than the earthly marital relationship.

I agree with you.  While this appears to be the agenda of some men, I also see a completely opposite agenda by Satan.  For the evil one I see the eternal subordination of women to be the Trojan horse that has enabled the Trinity to be dismantled and distorted.  Who would have ever allowed Jesus to be seen as having an eternal unequal authority and as one who is being ruled over by another member of the Trinity, except for the Trojan horse of the submission of women? The desire to keep women spiritually underneath men has allowed the defenses to be lowered of many people who then allowed in the attacks leveled against Jesus.  When you bring Jesus down, you can then lift men up so that God now becomes subordinate to them according to Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology.  Reading these things in cult indoctrination books would have previously caused people to loudly protest, but these same people are blinded by the honor given to those who hold doctorate degrees and who hold public respect and they allow these men to publicly lower the Son of God without one word of protest!

Don,

This whole continuing exercise of CBMW and similar to justify their authority hierarchy stance shows the lengths they are willing to go in their declining to repent.  If they are not wrong, then they do not need to repent, but if they are wrong, they do.  Let this be a lesson for us when WE need to repent.

Amen!  This is a very serious issue and one that needs accountability.  We are calling CBMW to account for their errors on the Trinity in their refusal to separate the humanity of Christ from his eternal equality with the Father in the Trinity.  The errors that they make are some of the same errors as the cults make.  It is a serious issue to be on the same side as the Christ-dishonoring cults.

tiro,

There is no doubt that those who hold to a limited “role” of women are the same ones who hold to a limited “role” of Jesus in the Trinity.  It comes across to me as an agenda to keep women in a position underneath men and they redefine the Trinity to have a “proof”.  When I was in email correspondence with Bruce Ware, I noted that he did not have a sermon on the Trinity, a writing or email correspondence on this subject that he didn’t bring the “role” of women into his communication on the Trinity.  What a sad state of affairs this is and it undermines the authority of Jesus and the exercise of his own will.

I have uploaded a compilation of several clips from the 2 DVD/3 section DVD set here.

Cindy,

Yes, I do think that it is a good idea to put up a preview of the DVD. We arrived home this evening from being out of the office the last week.  It may take me a couple of days to get a preview set up, but I will put it on Youtube and list the link as soon as it is uploaded.  Thanks for asking!

Thanks Molly!

Thanks tiro for those kind words, and I accept that prophetic word!!

Thanks Cindy and Don!

I am trying to manage the orders away from home while I am visiting with my folks.  Praise God that there is fruit from my hard work.  The DVDs are flying off the shelves and for that I am very grateful to God.

Truthseeker,
Thank you for your kind words!  I too have appreciated when others have shared their resources with me and I am at your service as I pass on what I have received.  Glad to see that you have grown much in the past number of months.  I am thrilled to hear about that!

Thanks, Lin!  Lots of orders going through today.  It certainly is an issue that needs to be addressed and the words of encouragement that we got from the first public showing was very encouraging to me personally.

Okay, I also found the link to the Christianity Today article at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/octoberweb-only/141-53.0.html This one should work.

I just got back into town and going through some of my email.  I looked up one of Frank’s older comments and his web site should read as http://360.yahoo.com/fgeis I will correct his post if I can figure out how to correct his link.

Just a quick update before I fall into bed from exhaustion.  The showing of the Trinity DVD went over extremely well.  I was asked to show part 2 after the Sunday morning communion service and it was very well received with lots of great feedback.  It is now available online at http://mmoutreach.org/order_macgregor_video.htm for US orders or http://mmoutreach.org/order_mmoinc_dvd.htm for Canadian and overseas orders.  We spent about 5 hours today putting the product together and stocking shelves so it is all a go now.  I will put out a formal post tomorrow and get our Amazon page ready too as soon as I can get a few spare minutes.

Thanks for all the great comments and the feedback.  The apologists at the conference were surprised to hear the information in the Trinity DVD set and I think we sold more copies of this DVD this weekend than any other first release product.  We are very happy, but very tired and grateful to be home.

Michael,

Amen!  Good thoughts!

Michael,

I put the quote into a block quote to help make your quote clear.

I am also very happy that this pastor is willing to look at the evidence.  He also seems to have changed his mind about saying that the Son was eternally subordinated from eternity past.  Now he just needs to work on the eternity future to get the full, complete biblical picture.  It is very encouraging to me to see someone who can change his view with the evidence.  There is great hope in that!

You are right in that the husband is not Christ.  That would make a good post for me to consider in the future.  I have just been re-reading things from CBMW about the husband being Christ to his wife and their errors need to be cleared up and dealt with.  I intend to do this in a future post.

Lin,

You are welcome to post any of your research on the LXX when you have it.

Frank,
The issue of the sovereignty of God has also puzzled me when those who say they believe fully in God’s sovereignty also say that God had no other choice than to pick a woman.  Either God is able or he is not.  We cannot argue against ourselves and refute our own words and then claim to be consistent.

Paula,
Yes, the thought that Deborah would be something bad given because of disobedient men just doesn’t fit.  The writer’s words even contradict himself.

Don,
As usual when you disagree you do is so agreeably.  Good job!

I do not see Barak as weak in faith in the least.  One, because scripture doesn’t tell us that his request was because of weak faith.  Hebrews lists him as a great man of faith.  Secondly Deborah doesn’t chide him for weak faith but warns him that if she goes into battle (as the other Judges have done and which she can do because she did) she will get the full glory when she was willing to share the glory with him.  I see Deborah’s actions as being respectful to Barak’s position and willing to share the glory of the deliverance with him.  She had the right to do that if she wanted.  But Barak’s request to have her by his side, proves to me that he sees her as God’s “man” of the hour and he gives her equal honor as he would any male leader.  In this I see Barak as a true egalitarian with no huge male ego.

I see this because scripture does not list Barak’s sin and I do not want to attribute a bad motive to someone’s heart unless God makes it clear.  Deborah chose to Judge a little differently than the other Judges and as a woman myself, I believe her heart (she was called a “mother” of Israel) showed that she was willing to respect the male ego and take her Judging outside the male territory and under a tree, and her going into battle to give Israel deliverance was willingness to share the deliverance with a subordinate male leader.  In this I give both Deborah much credit for her understanding of the male ego and Barak much credit for his unashamed egalitarianism.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.  I think this way of thinking makes the scriptures fit in both Judges and Hebrews.  Also understanding things this way would also make me list Barak as a great man of faith.  Thinking of it any other way would make me give Barak a miss.

Mary,

Thank you so much for your encouragement!  Also welcome to this blog and I hope you find the material and the comments and those who comment here to be very encouraging.