I just ordered my copy!

Thanks, Lin!  Lots of orders going through today.  It certainly is an issue that needs to be addressed and the words of encouragement that we got from the first public showing was very encouraging to me personally.

I can’t wait to get mine, either.  Guess I have to though…

I’m so glad it was so well received at the showing this past weekend!

Congrats on seeing this off.  May the viewers be enlightended.

Thanks Cindy and Don!

I am trying to manage the orders away from home while I am visiting with my folks.  Praise God that there is fruit from my hard work.  The DVDs are flying off the shelves and for that I am very grateful to God.

I can hardly wait to see it too.

How about a prophetic word that you are going to have to do another printing of this.  🙂

Thanks tiro for those kind words, and I accept that prophetic word!!

This is awesome!  I am so looking forward to watching this, Cheryl!

Thanks Molly!

Cheryl,

Alright, I’ve been waiting to see the DVD before I plug it on my blog, but it didn’t arrive yet.  I hope it comes today.  I wont have time to watch it until tomorrow, but I’ll get the excitement of knowing that I have it!

And I was wondering, after visiting Lin’s blog where she’s now posted a clip from WIM from YouTube, if you are going to put any video clips of the Trinity series online, too?

Cindy,

Yes, I do think that it is a good idea to put up a preview of the DVD. We arrived home this evening from being out of the office the last week.  It may take me a couple of days to get a preview set up, but I will put it on Youtube and list the link as soon as it is uploaded.  Thanks for asking!

Good clip! So what Bruce, Grudem and the “role” clan do with the Trinity is the same thing they try to do to women. They want one of a temporal temporary ‘role’ of life to backtrack and define the whole person and the person’s life. Just as they say that because a woman will spend a portion of her life mothering that therefore that is the value of the whole of her life, and she has no other purpose or ‘role’ in life. The temporary role defines her. So, now they say that The Son’s temporary ‘role’ as Messiah, the Christ, defines Him and even back tracks into eternity past and fast forwards into eternity future and erases the rest of His ‘roles’ or authorities, abilities, etc. Pretty crazy. And I would say that the reason they do this is their thirst for earthly male power and dominance. Then there are those who wish to benefit from their social wealth and status and will support this folly. It is just unfortunate that the naive and innocent are following them in their craziness.

tiro,

There is no doubt that those who hold to a limited “role” of women are the same ones who hold to a limited “role” of Jesus in the Trinity.  It comes across to me as an agenda to keep women in a position underneath men and they redefine the Trinity to have a “proof”.  When I was in email correspondence with Bruce Ware, I noted that he did not have a sermon on the Trinity, a writing or email correspondence on this subject that he didn’t bring the “role” of women into his communication on the Trinity.  What a sad state of affairs this is and it undermines the authority of Jesus and the exercise of his own will.

males on top of females, fathers on top of sons = patriarchy.

This whole continuing exercise of CBMW and similar to justify their authority hierarchy stance shows the lengths they are willing to go in their declining to repent.  If they are not wrong, then they do not need to repent, but if they are wrong, they do.  Let this be a lesson for us when WE need to repent.

Cheryl,

I just ordered the DVD and I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say about this issue. The clip on youtube was very good and what I would like to know is how Ware handles the fact that Jesus specifically tells His disciples to ask Him anything and it will be done for them.

I am currently concerned about an article I read on the CBMW site that teaches we will have eternal headship of husbands over their earthly wives in heaven and that women will be eternally and perfectly subordinate to men.  The Bible clearly teaches that there is no marriage in heaven and Jesus illustrates this perfectly when he talks about the woman who had 7 husbands and how NONE of them will be her husband in heaven.

It seems that those who want to lessen the deity of Christ by making Him eternally subordinate and less than the Father are also those who want to use this new doctrine to teach that there is eternal headship/subordination and eternal marriage in heaven. It seems more like Mormon teaching than it does that of orthodox Christianity.

CBMW quote:”They will see in the example of Christ, as never before, the beauty and glory that inheres in gracious, selfless submission. With both man and woman thus perfected and transformed, are we to suppose that the new creation will abandon the order established in God’s original creation? I think not. Rather, such relations will bring to each true joy, and to God, more glory than before.”

Here we go again with creation order. Start with a wrong premise and end with heresy.

1. They started with this focus on women, their subordination and roles. That is being refuted with scripture. So they…

2. Use the same teaching on creation order to teach a hierarchy and chain of command in the Trinity resulting in a ‘lesser’ Jesus even though they claim Jesus is God they contradict that with what they teach about Jesus.

3. Now they are suggesting that creation order means that there is subordination of women in heaven…which means that we will have a layer between us and God in heaven, too! I guess the women will be hanging out with the subordinate Jesus?

1 is a difference of interpretations

2 and #3 is heresy

The progression is clear. And for ONE reason: Earthly power and authority over others in the Body. Exactly what Jesus taught against for the Body.

I listened to the DVD last night as it came in the mail! Wow, great job. Lorri is excellent (I had not heard her teaching before) and I could have listened to another hour of the attributes of ‘God’ (Godhead). It was so uplifting and I was praising God and worshiping Him as I listened.

I cannot thank you guys enough for making this DVD that is so clear and simple to follow…and backed up with nothing but the Word. Unlike those teaching these false doctrines who sound like they are discussing the minutia of how many angels can dance on a pinhead with lots of big seminary words. One would think that the Lord could not teach the average Joe through His Word listening to these guys.

I was also a bit surprised to see that Ware is using 1 Corin 11 as his foundation for the eternal subordination of Jesus Christ. Once again, we see Kephale being interpreted as meaning ‘ruler and authority’ when it does not mean that at all. Starting with presuppositions that are not true and ending up with Jesus as eternally subordinated.

I have found I can trust little that comes from SBTS anymore. They seem to have an agenda and it is not about elevating our Savior.

Cheryl:  I just recently received an e-mail from Jon Zens that had a “preview” copy of your Trinity DVD.   I was so impressed, I went and ordered a copy!  I look forward to receiving it and using it as a further resource in “the Battle for the Trinity” that is now going on in the Evangelical Church.  May the the knowledge of the truth that brings godliness prevail.  Amen!

Don,

This whole continuing exercise of CBMW and similar to justify their authority hierarchy stance shows the lengths they are willing to go in their declining to repent.  If they are not wrong, then they do not need to repent, but if they are wrong, they do.  Let this be a lesson for us when WE need to repent.

Amen!  This is a very serious issue and one that needs accountability.  We are calling CBMW to account for their errors on the Trinity in their refusal to separate the humanity of Christ from his eternal equality with the Father in the Trinity.  The errors that they make are some of the same errors as the cults make.  It is a serious issue to be on the same side as the Christ-dishonoring cults.

Corrie,

The clip on youtube was very good and what I would like to know is how Ware handles the fact that Jesus specifically tells His disciples to ask Him anything and it will be done for them.

Ware skirts the clear biblical command of Jesus to ask Him anything and “He” will be the one who answers the prayers, by saying that only the apostles are allowed to have this relationship with Jesus in prayer.  He says that since they walked with Jesus on the earth and knew him in the flesh, then they alone are given the privilege of praying to Jesus.  We, on the other hand, according to Ware, are to pray only to the Father and therefore our relationship is with the Father, but through the Son, who is responsible for taking the prayers to the Father.  It is very much like JW theology.

I too have been concerned about the CBMW teaching that the unique position of submission of wives will be continued in heaven.  Yet at the same time their position is the logical consequence of their faulty theology.  It is not biblical but it logically follows their error.  I would like to do an article on this subject in the near future as it troubles me a lot.  The strong stand of several CBMW speakers who attach salvation to a “correct” understanding of “manhood” and “womanhood” also concerns me very much.  They have moved from a restrictive position on women to a very divisive position in the church.  I hope that those who are sitting on the fence on this issue are now able to clearly see the danger in teaching that God has created a spiritual difference between men and women that gives men unlimited access to their gifts from God for the use of the entire body of Christ, while restricting God’s gifts given through women forcing some women to be prejudiced against their brothers in Christ.  When we do not stand up against this forced prejudice and speak the truth of God with love, the body of Christ is hurt and our united witness before the world is also hurt.

To me, the Trinity is their Trojan Horse and this article is proof that their thoughts on Christ’s subordination go much, much deeper than the earthly marital relationship.

I agree with you.  While this appears to be the agenda of some men, I also see a completely opposite agenda by Satan.  For the evil one I see the eternal subordination of women to be the Trojan horse that has enabled the Trinity to be dismantled and distorted.  Who would have ever allowed Jesus to be seen as having an eternal unequal authority and as one who is being ruled over by another member of the Trinity, except for the Trojan horse of the submission of women? The desire to keep women spiritually underneath men has allowed the defenses to be lowered of many people who then allowed in the attacks leveled against Jesus.  When you bring Jesus down, you can then lift men up so that God now becomes subordinate to them according to Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology.  Reading these things in cult indoctrination books would have previously caused people to loudly protest, but these same people are blinded by the honor given to those who hold doctorate degrees and who hold public respect and they allow these men to publicly lower the Son of God without one word of protest!

Lin,

CBMW is consistently pointing to “creation order” but has failed time and time again to provide one iota of proof that Adam was created to rule over Eve or that Eve was created to be under the rule of her husband.

Here we go again with creation order. Start with a wrong premise and end with heresy.

Amen!  This is what happens when we allow the doctrines of men to become established without a challenge.  They present their wrong premise as if it is a fact and then build a house upon sand.  In the end they have dishonored the Lord Jesus who bought them in order to lift themselves up as males who have a special unique spiritual calling.  We must fight the good fight of faith without wavering because Jesus is being deprived of his full equality in the Godhead.

I cannot thank you guys enough for making this DVD that is so clear and simple to follow…and backed up with nothing but the Word.

Thank you Lin for such wonderful words of praise.

Our goal was to present the biblical doctrine of the Trinity using only the Bible as our source.  While it is tempting to argue the Trinity by the creeds and the early Church Fathers, the Bible is the only reliable source.  We have already seen how Bruce Ware and other CBMW leaders have distorted the words of the church fathers and so our desire was to let the Bible speak for itself.  The absence of Old Testament scriptures that teach the eternal subordination of the Lord of Hosts but do teach in his amazing equality of essence and function defeats hands down CBMW’s reliance on using only New Testament scriptures that focus on the humanity of Jesus Christ.  Their silence on the Old Testament record of the Trinity is most telling and should be shouted from the housetops to sincere bible believers that CBMW and crew have given a distorted partial picture of the Trinity while claiming to present a clear eternal picture of Jesus.  Their arguments follow the pattern of the cults and after seeing the distortions of Jesus in the cults since the 1980’s (for me) and since the 1970’s (for Lorri) we could hardly hold back our dismay and our determination to expose these false views that have entered the church that belongs to Jesus.

I was also a bit surprised to see that Ware is using 1 Corin 11 as his foundation for the eternal subordination of Jesus Christ. Once again, we see Kephale being interpreted as meaning ’ruler and authority’ when it does not mean that at all. Starting with presuppositions that are not true and ending up with Jesus as eternally subordinated.

Ware has ripped scripture from its context and he has done this before thousands of pastors who should know better but who have kept silent.  We are guilty of idolizing men and refusing to call them to account because they are popular and speak with authority.  Those who should be protecting the flock are letting false teaching in without lifting a finger to stop it.  We trust that our efforts in this DVD set will awaken godly pastors who have been deceived into thinking that the earthly subordination of Christ is an eternal truth. Wake up oh men of God and take the Word of God as a sword of the Spirit to fight for truth.  Once Jesus is allowed to be placed in an unequal position of unequal authority and unequal honor, every other essential doctrine of the church is ripe to be distorted and destroyed.  If pastors will not stand up for Jesus, the sheep are going to go around the pastors.

Frank,

Thank you for your kind words!  I have appreciated Dr. Jon Zens in all the help and encouragement that he has given to me in my efforts to lift up the Word of God.  His support has truly warmed my heart and given me a boost towards our continuing to speak forth the truth with courage and without fear.

One good thing is the interest shown in this subject that gives me great hope for the church.  I have been filling orders all day for the Trinity DVD with sets going out as far away as Australia and throughout North America.  I hope and pray that those who view this DVD set will pass the word to their pastors and other Christians who have fallen prey to a lower view of Jesus in the Trinity.

Great DVD Set!!

I have seen most of DVD 1 and both sections of DVD 2 🙂 Awesome, some things are hard to grasp though. I think I should see them some more times.

Anyways I noted what seemed to me as an appeal to the word “mystery” in 1 Tim 3:16 as being used in the modern sense, like something which is hard to grasp, ie just accept it.
But the word mystery many times in the Bible in stead of carrying the modern sense of the word, instead means revealed truth, of what once used to be a mystery, but now is revealed through Christ or His Apostles.

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory” (1 Tim 3:16).

In His awesome grace,
Martin Willemoes Hansen

Martin,

Great!  Thanks!  Yes, good point about mystery.  I think you are referring to Lorri’s portion.  So many pastors today continue to tell people that they don’t need to try to understand what the Trinity is because it is supposed to be a “mystery”.  Yet even as a great truth hidden from before and now revealed it is still so overwhelming. It is kind of like the attributes of God.  How can Jesus be here on earth in the flesh and yet be everywhere in the Spirit?  Lots of things that are hard to understand, but the incarnation certainly is a great truth, finally unveiled.

I just rewatched DVD 2 teaching 1 on eternity past.  This is jam packed and I think it only possible to  comprehend in multiple viewings.  Whew!

A few impressions:
1. Ware makes a mistake in not seeking the whole counsel of Scripture.

2. Ware is too much of a Greek thinker and not enough of a Hebrew thinker to correctly handle Scripture written almost entirely by Hebrews.

1Ti 1:5
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

1Ti 1:6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,

1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

In my understanding, law in the above is Torah or God’s (whole) teaching, but certainly at least refers to the OT/Tanakh.  The NT sits on the OT like the second story of a building sits on the first.  As Ware demonstrates, it is very possible to misunderstand some NT texts when they are divorced from the OT foundations on which they rest.

Somehow my post about got scramble.  Can you correct? The last 2 lines are from the BIble.

Don,

I fixed your comment to reflect the last lines as 1 Timothy 1:6.

I just rewatched DVD 2 teaching 1 on eternity past.  This is jam packed and I think it only possible to  comprehend in multiple viewings.  Whew!

So many people have told me that I am “deep” but I think it is more that I “jam pack” my teachings with so much info that it does take multiple viewings to catch everything.   The good thing is that it is all from the scriptures and it can be checked out by those willing to “test all things” because they want to “hold fast to what is good”.

I agree with you regarding your assessment of Ware’s teaching.  I was extremely disappointed in his book on the Trinity and in his sermons where he basically ignores the Old Testament revelation of God and focuses almost exclusively on the incarnation.  This creates a very distorted view of God who is God from eternity past.  It falls right in line with what the cults do to the Son of God who lower his authority by focusing solely on his humility as the human Son.

Thanks for the comments!  I look forward to any further comments you have once you have been able to unpack all the “jam packed” information.

Something seems to be forcing one verse to the very bottom of my post, which is strange.  My guess is some hidden formatting symbol.

Don,

Not sure why one verse got to the end of your post, but I thought you wanted it there.  I corralled it and got it to move up.

Cheryl, is there any way I could pay for this with credit card online here? I have no PayPal account. Thanks

Hi Jennifer,

Thank you!! Can’t wait to own it. Did I tell you I can’t get enough of your “Women” DVD? 😛

Hey, Jennifer, thanks!!

I left a message. Could you guys call me back tomorrow? I’d like to get the DVD shipped to me as fast as possible.

Jennifer,

I just emailed you back at the email provided on your last comment.  Your DVD will go in the mail shortly.

Cheryl