Don Johnson

On leadership ministries being gifts

Eph 4:11
Eph 4:12
with a view to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ,

On Paul confirming his message
Gal 2:2I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.
Gal 2:6
And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)–those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.
Gal 2:7
On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised
Gal 2:8
(for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),
Gal 2:9and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

This is the leaders of the Jerusalem church confirming Paul’s message.
Paul wrote Scripture, so signs and wonders help confirm him as speaking for God as God did things thru him.  If anyone today would claim to write Scripture, I would expect similar signs and wonders as part of the confirmation.
On Acts

Act 1:21
So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22
beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us–one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

you say that one of the marks of the 12 is being a witness to the resurrection and quote this verse, but you do not accept the other qualification, being with Jesus from the baptism of John.  This was not very many people, so 2 possibles does not seem impossible.  And Paul is not one of them.

Ephesians 2:11 And indeed He gave some to be apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;

On the woman with the anti-woman-leader pastor in a woman-leader denom, she can escalate, as there is a leadership hierarchy.  Perhaps her pastor should not be a pastor in this denom.  Or perhaps she should go to another congregation in this denom.  Or perhaps she should stay and try to convince him.  It is not automatic that she should stay or go or escalate.
On lots:

Num 26:53
“Among these the land shall be divided for inheritance according to the number of names.
Num 26:54
To a large tribe you shall give a large inheritance, and to a small tribe you shall give a small inheritance; every tribe shall be given its inheritance in proportion to its list.
Num 26:55But the land shall be divided by lot. According to the names of the tribes of their fathers they shall inherit.

Jos 7:13
Get up! Consecrate the people and say, ‘Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow; for thus says the LORD, God of Israel, “There are devoted things in your midst, O Israel. You cannot stand before your enemies until you take away the devoted things from among you.”
Jos 7:14In the morning therefore you shall be brought near by your tribes. And the tribe that the LORD takes by lot shall come near by clans. And the clan that the LORD takes shall come near by households. And the household that the LORD takes shall come near man by man.

Jdg 20:9Jdg 20:10

and we will take ten men of a hundred throughout all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred of a thousand, and a thousand of ten thousand, to bring provisions for the people, that when they come they may repay Gibeah of Benjamin, for all the outrage that they have committed in Israel.”

1Sa 10:201Sa 10:21
He brought the tribe of Benjamin near by its clans, and the clan of the Matrites was taken by lot; and Saul the son of Kish was taken by lot. But when they sought him, he could not be found.

Pro 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Pro 18:18 The lot puts an end to quarrels and decides between powerful contenders.

Jon 1:7
The sailors said to each other, “Let’s draw lots and find out who is to blame for getting us into this danger.” They did so, and Jonah’s name was drawn.

Luk 1:9According to the custom followed by the priests, he was chosen by lot to burn incense on the altar. So he went into the Temple of the Lord,

The lot was an accepted way to make decisions and besides being random it might mean they voted.
The reason I said it was a mistake to couple these ideas is it makes it easier for the non-egals to dismiss 1 by dismissing the other.  The idea of Paul being the 12th apostle is not common.  So you are giving your opponents a “slow pitch” even if you believe it to be true.  There are many things that I might believe the Lord showed me that I would never bring up in an argument.
On your claim that Paul says the same things as the 11, I want to see verses, as I do not see this.

1 Samuel 10:20 Then Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was taken by lot.

Judges 20:9 But now this is what we will do to Gibeah: we will go up against it by lot,

One of the ways to have pride is to think it is not possible to be wrong.  This can lead to arrogance.

My take is the leaders at CARM deal with cultists a lot and it is very easy to see how they are wrong in a big way.  But dealing with believers is different.

I want to always be willing to learn more and change.  I have changed what I believed about something many times in my walk, I am certainly not the same as when I first believed.

Might be best on its own thread, it makes it easier to follow that specific topic.

Cheryl,

I realize you have a lot going on, so you can choose if we continue to discuss Paul and not Matthias as one of the 12.

In my understanding, one other reason for the Adam and the animals narrative is the subtext of anti-beastiality that the reader is supposed to discern, none of the animals was fit for a mate.

The naming by Adam is an EXAMPLE of him exercising authority of the animals that God gave to both the man and the woman.

Gen 2:19

Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

If you study the wording, one sees that there is NO command from God to name the animals, this is because the authority to do so is ALREADY in the command from Gen 1.

Any group can decide the reasons for membership and non-membership.  But you now have received an HONOR that a few others that were at CARM also received.  I am sure you can see why it is an HONOR.

Paul was a diaspora Jew who was a Torah scholar.  The idea that he would make a Greek grammar mistake under the inspiritation of the Holy Spirit is preposterous.  When someone goes to that length, it just shows how far they will go to make Scripture say what they wish.

The way I understand 1 Tim 2:15 (my translation) is: She will be saved through the Childbearing; if they each continue in faith and love and holiness with self control.
The last Greek word is sophrosune, which means sanity or self-control; in any case, it is something that a specific person has, not a group.  So I emend the text to add “each” to clarify this.

So I see it as POSSIBLE that Paul is talking about individuals in a group.  Each person’s salvation is based on that person’s actions, my working out of my salvation depends on what I choose, not my spouse or friend or whomever.

Part of the challenge in interpreting 1 Tim is that Paul had a shared context with Timothy that we today lack, so Paul could write in a compressed form and Timothy would know what Paul was referring to, while we are less sure.

Matt 18 does not stop with just going to the individual.  It seems you have tried that, at some point you go to his church.
FWIIW, I have read that the books in the NT range in their being high Greek or low Greek.  That is, some books are very educated Greek and some are not.

Public prophecy is to be assessed, it might be Godly, might be fleshly, or even demonic.

I incorporate all public statements as potentially being prophecy, such as reading the Bible (some translations have errors in them), giving a sermon, singing a hymn (some hymns have some errors in them), tongues with interpretation and prophetic speaking.

Prayer and prophecy is a shorthand form for believers speaking to God and God speaking to believers.  What Grudem fears is women speaking authoritatively in a public church setting and teaching men, as he thinks this is forbidden.  So prophecy gets reduced.  The cost is too much, methinks.

Reading Ken Bailey’s new book, Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, on p. 192-193 he gives 4 reasons how we can KNOW Jesus had female disciples.
1. Acts 9:36, the Greek is mathetria which is the feminine form of disciple used to describe Tabitha.
2. Mat 12:48-50 gestures to his disciples and mentions females
3. Luk 8:1-3, the women were providers.
4. Luk 10:38 where Mary sits are Jesus’ feet, this is an idiom for being a disciple, compare with Acts 22:3.Â
So the vicar is simply totally wrong on this aspect.

One other point, Adam has more responsibility not becasue he is male, but because he was formed before the woman and was taught more by God, specifically that he was to till and guard the garden.  One does not need to guard something that has no threats, so he should have been on the lookout for something to guard the garden against.  He failed this task, as the vicar points out and this is the first sin (of omission) in the garden.

On the vicar’s teaching, first the positives:
1. Yes, men and women are equal but different.
2. Yes, he is right about the 2 risks of bad interpretation, making the Bible’s application today’s application or making a principle cultural when it is transcultural.
3. Yes, real beauty is inward, not outward.
4. Yes, what Paul writes in Scripture is authoritative and inspired.  However, it is very possible to misunderstand some things Paul writes, as Peter writes in the 1st century; how much more today?
5. Yes, Adam was there with the woman and remained silent.

On the negatives:
1. The Bible does not say the husband is head of the family, it says the parents are.  It does say the husband/man is head of the wife/woman and the question is what does this mean?
2. No eternal subordination in the Godhead, rather there is an economic submission while the Word was incarnate.  The Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness and Jesus later sent the Spirit.
3. Jesus had female diciples, not just males.  See Luke 8.
4. A prophecy today may not be a mixture of true and false, it might be all false or all true.  It does need to be tested, as well as any teaching needs to be.
5. 1 Tim 2:13-14 (“For Adam…”) could be a direct refutation of the false teaching at Ephesus and not a justification for 1 Tim 2:11-12.  He does not seem to even see this is possible.
6. He fudges the meaning of 1 Tim 2:15 and does not know Cheryl’s insight about who might be her and they.
7. The biggest concern of course is that he does not see how he is choosing to interpret 1 Tim 2:12 in a way that restricts women, but this is his choice, there are other intepretative choices that do not restrict women.  For example, if Paul is referring to a specific woman, which is possible, then the restriction is only for her and the application would be for those who did the things she did, not all women.  It is also possible to see the restriction as a present thing, as in “I do not now permit (a) woman…’ as 1 Tim 2:11-12 are tightly coupled and the woman is to be taught correct doctrine.

He does seem to be trying to follow Scripture, but apparently has not seen much of the other side of this issue.  So see if he is willing to read anything from the other side.

There are 3 basic ways to organize the government of a church or denom: top down ecclesical, bottom up congregational, and by elders or elder. Whatever way is done in a specific instance, people need to conform to it, that is, any group gets to make its own rules as they understand what God wants for them, even if we might disagree with them. If you do not agree with their rules, do not seek ordination from that group.

I cannot find ordination, per se, in the Bible; what I do find is laying on of hands. I see this as a group acknowledging God’s gift of leadership ministry in someone AND agreeing that this person will be a leader for that group.

It is probably better to do this offline or on another thread.

Can you name the seminary?  Do they plan to discuss both sides or what?

I see somehow my post got slightly scrambled.  The last sentence is part of a quote from the BIble.

Luk 24:49
Luk 24:50

Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.

Luk 24:51
While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven.

Luk 24:52
And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Luk 24:53
and were continually in the temple blessing God.

Act 1:4
And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;

Act 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

The command was to stay in the city until (what we call) Pentecost, this they did.

Act 1:20
“For it is written in the Book of Psalms, “‘May his camp become desolate, and let there be no one to dwell in it’; and “‘Let another take his office.’

Peter and the rest of the 11 were acting in faith based on their understand of Scripture to replace Judas.

So the 11 staying in Jerusalem until Pentecost as commanded, but this does not mean they just sat on their hands. In the gospels (before Pentecost) they had been given the authority to bind and loose, which are rabbinic terms to permit and forbid, that is make decisions.

—
On the 5 fold ministry, yes, each is a gift, but a congregation also needs to acknowledge this by the laying on of hands. That is, just because someone is called to be a pastor does not mean they are to be the pastor of THIS particular congregation, the congregation needs to agree. So while a congregation or denomination does not have the authority to say someone is NOT a pastor, etc. they DO have the right to say they are NOT a pastor, etc. in this specific church or denomination.

This is similar to accepting a prophet as a prophet, if you do not do it (which is your choice) you do not get any benefits you might have gotten.
I agree Paul say the risen Christ, but this does not mean he saw the resurrection, this was the time between 3 days after his death and his ascension.

And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

ESV 2Co 11:4

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

2Co 11:5

Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.

If you look at the context, apparently some were claiming to be “super-apostles” but were not proclaiming the true faith.  This carries on to 1 Cor 12, again the apparently self-proclaimed super-apostles are false teachers.
There are some missionaries today that claim to have participated in signs and wonders.  I believe all spiritual gifts are active today.
FWIIW, I agree with all the claims that Paul makes and you quote, just that I do not see him claiming to be one of the 12.

The concern I have is that all 11 acted in concert in picking Matthias, I do not see it as possible for all 11 acting in concert to make such a mistake.  If that was possible, then how do we know ANYTHING is true?

Hey, I git 2 votes to your 1, cuz I can grow a beard.

It is true that interpretation is a 2 step process, (1) exegesis of the original meaning and (2) application  for today.  Once CBMW exegetes 1 Tim to say women cannot teach men, I could see a pastor or congregation wondering if something they do would be condemned by them by some paper in the future.  In other words there would be a natural tendency to play it safe and forbid women from doing lots of things where they might end up teaching men.  This is entirely a problem of their own making due to their exegesis, which is really eisegesis.

The print is tiny on the pdf request, at least for me.  Any way of making it larger?  Thanks.

Another idea to improve the website is to put the forward and backward pointers ALSO after the end of all comments (like exist int he header).  As it is now, the reader goes all the way down to read the latest posts, then all the way back up to go backwards or forwards.

It is even more than a Christian Talmud, it is a teaching Magisterium that they seem to be intent on creating.  That is, THEY will define how to interpret the Bible and claim that other ideas outside of theirs are heterodox. 
They tried to get the TNIV people to RESTRICT the meaning of some words in the lexicons; this is simply not possible to do and when the TNIV translators pointed this out, the gender hierarchicalists said that the TNIV people broke their promise.  It is simply not possible to agree to change the meaning of words in a lexicon, the very idea of being able to make such a promise is bogus.

So the gender hierarchicalists had major influence on 2 recent translations, ESV and HCSB.  This is their attempt to address all the “problem” verses by making a translation that removes the problems (from their perspective).

It is ironic as this is exactly what started the Protestant Reformation.

The serpent said something that was not true and the woman believed it.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman, Dying you shall not die,

This was something that was not true that the serpent said.

Gen 3:13

And Jehovah God said to the woman, What is
this you have done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate.

What translation are you using?

The ALT, ESV, KJV and LITV all have just “some”.

An improvement 1 Tim 1:6 says simply “tis” meaning “some”.  “Some men” may lead some to think that only males were involved in the false teaching, which is not what the Greek implies.