Kay

Craig,
Gnostic heresies in Ephesus at the time of Paul’s writing taught: “Knowledge of your origins via your family tree is important to salvation; Eve is the origin of all.” Notice Paul’s comment about genealogies, and his correction that Adam came first.
Gnosticism taught: “Eve is worshipped as a perfect, spirit being, Adam’s creator and, united with the Serpent, the enlightener of mankind with the True Knowledge.”
A common teaching was that Adam was deceived because he did not recognize the Serpent as the enlightener. Whereas Paul refutes this by reminding the reader that Eve was not perfect, but rather the one deceived…while Adam was not deceived.
Gnosticism taught: “That which is physical is evil; spirit is good. Creating more vile flesh by having children is evil. Women who give birth will be hindered from entering Gnostic heaven.”

Holly,
The thing is that our English translations are just that – translations. It’s good to read from many translations because of the difficulty of translating anything from one language to another. For instance, if I say, “My husband is an ogre in the morning before his first cup of Joe”, consider the job of translating that into Chinese or German. We need to be like Bereans and study what’s behind the translations for a fuller understanding as well.

Craig,
Consider it like this: the origin of every man is Christ – Christ is the agent of God in creation. In I Cor 8:6 Paul has just affirmed that Jesus Christ is the one “through whom are all things.”
The origin of woman is man – Gen 2:;21-23. Woman is “taken out of man .”
The origin of Christ is God – Jesus is Lord. Jesus
comes from God. The origin of Jesus is God.
We use the familiar phrase “the head-waters of a river.” The phrase does not affirm that the water which flows into the Nile is ‘created’ by Lake Victoria but rather, it flows from Lake Victoria. In the same way, “origin of” can here be seen as an affirmation of the divine source from which Jesus has come and affirmation of His divinity.

Dave,
I was reading back through some as well this morning – felt the same way. I’ve been so blessed by the conversations here! So, glad to have “met” you and many others on this blog.

Glad to hear it, pinklight!
Now a deep theological question 🙂 – what does “<3<3<3” mean?

One culprit in all of this is the traditional division into chapters and verses. In order to keep the numbering system, translators add a verb that alters the meaning of the whole. What difference it would make to believers if translators could break free from restrictive verse numbers so we read Ephesians as one whole. It could mean that translators may not feel the need to add a verb that does not exist in Greek, just to make a complete sentence out of a verbless phrase in Greek. Just sayin’…

Craig@194 & sm@221

More on the redefining issue:
Craig, you might ask your friend why comps continually add the term “joyful” to “submission” when referring to the wife in Eph. 5:22, but not “joyfull submission” in verse 21 where every believer is addressed? (Especially, since the verb “submit” isn’t in vs.22 in the Greek in the first place…)

Great comments over the weekend! Amaranath@200 & Dave@201

Kristin@204 – you took the words right out of my mouth!

“Man in Black to gengwall – “get used to disappointment”

O.k., now I must see this movie…out of sheer self-defense! 🙂

Cheryl,
I hope that some day those old wounds will lose their sensitivity and, Lord willing, you’ll be able to use for good what the enemy tried to destroy you with.

gengwall,
Add me to the “yep never saw the movie” list.

“However, what is to happen when a situation arises where a decision MUST be made and the husband and wife cannot agree? After prayer and fasting they continue to disagree. After looking into both sides heavily they continue to disagree. After searching the scriptures they continue to disagree. And yet a decision must be made. It is in these instances that God calls the wife to submit to the husband.”

Alex,
From a counseling standpoint, such an impasse usually indicates deeper problems in the marriage. Have you or someone you know ever had such a situation? How did that turn out when the husband made the decision in favor of what he wanted?

In a relationship it is certainly less costly to give up one’s choice in small decisions (ie. picking a restaurant for dinner, etc.), but this could be devastating in “big” decisions like: having a child, moving to a foreign country, or from the city to a remote farm.

@184
True, gengwall. Many things sound good in theory – but taken down to ‘nitty-gritty’ reveal something else entirely!

“I’d like to see what you would say, so I’ll answer that serving sacrificially is broader in scope. Leading sacrificially is just one way of serving sacrificially.”
Craig,
So, is there any other option/qualifier for ‘leading’ than “sacrificially”? If so, do tell. 🙂

Kristin@20,
I’ve had that book on my wish list for a while…thanks for sharing that!

“That’s OK. I knew if I put my comp hat on I would need my suit of armour as well :)”

Craig,
🙂 Regular doses of humor do go a long way in keeping us all in proper perspective!

“I would contend if you are exhibiting sacrificial loving service in the name of Christ, you are leading (influencing) for Christ’s sake that His fame might increase and His nature be revealed in and through you whether you are are male or female, young or old.”
sm,
I’d just like to build on your thought here. Paul said,
“Be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” 1Cor 11:1 & “For yourselves know how you ought to follow us:…. but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us” 2Thes 3:7,9. As I shared in an earlier comment, “Follow” there is from the Greek “mimetai” or “mimetes” – meaning to mimic.

Another Greek word “opiso” which means “to the back” is translated as “follow” also. “Jesus said to them, “Follow me and I will make you fish for people.” James and John responded to the same call and “went after him.” Jesus said, “Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” Luke14. This type of “following” is only appropriate when it is Jesus we are “following”.

Also, the Greek word “akoloutheo” which means “to be in the same way with, to accompany” is translated as “follow”. “Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead” Matt. 8:22; “And as Jesus passed forth, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said to him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him” Matt. 9:9;
“And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him” Mark 1:18.
“a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers… My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” John 10:2-5, 27. – Neither Paul nor other disciples us these two words (“opiso” & “akoloutheo) regarding “following” them personally.

Jesus uses both in one makes a very poignant statement: “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, ‘If any man will come after (opiso) Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow (akoloutheito) Me’”

Amaranth,
As I see it, we don’t have a problem with God, but with the way some choose to interpret His Word. If everyone is addressed equally as a person in Christ, and everyone is ultimately responsible to answer to Him as an individual, then in reality there is no distinction between any of them. The only distinctions are those perceived by someone’s interpretation.
You are definately not alone. I hope you continue to read and comment here for a long time. Godspeed on your journey!

gengwall@152,
I think one of Cheryl’s videos has a clip of a preacher making that claim…something like “That’s just the way it is” – Translated, that means, “do not question this claim!”

“I wore the leader badge but have never had to use it. So in this aspect, I am not sure if our marriage would practically change at all if we became egal. I am just seeking to know the truth. The question does the authority really exist if it is never exercised is a good one.”

Craig@93,

So, maybe the answer is really self-evident. A comp male truly living out Eph.5 will never need to use an “authority badge.” …perhaps “male authority” is like the emperor’s clothes – “it” really isn’t there…

sm,
It’s a funny thing – comp men are sure they have “it” but they just can’t seem to tell us what “it” is…I mean really if you have “it” shouldn’t you know what “it” is??? 😉

sm@146: “I have read and listened to enough sermons/conferences of leading comps to know they would say “no” because men are inherently born to lead and women are born inherently to follow. So, I am trying to get to the bottom of what observable qualitative difference is there between the sexes that makes loving, sacrificial service from a female different”

You’ll be on an endless search. We have tried to get comps to pinpoint what that difference is many times. Some have offered up “maleness” in answer and when questioned down to the logical conclusion of ‘whom with precisely which particular reproductive organs qualified’ (would a eunuch?) wasn’t able to admit that the Church has no morally acceptable means of verifying who has those “qualified parts” or “exactly which parts qualify” before they teach or preach.

gengwall@145:”that the wife should never lead her husband not only defies the gifting of the Spirit and puts an impossible burden on the husband, but is just plain dumb because it is not the best plan for success of the marriage and the family.”

Not only that, but as I have illustrated several times, it is a physical and/or mental impossibility for some husbands.
And if it is merely the best plan, it is certainly not the only ‘unsinful’ option.

Cheryl & gengwall@8,

And the irony of all that is that God, let me repeat, God condescended to die like a common criminal for us! What more does it take for humans to “get” it?

Craig,
Some more food for thought – In English Bible translations, “follow,” “imitate” or “follow my example” comes from the Greek “mimetai” or “mimetes” which means “to mimic” or “imitate” or an “imitator”. : “Be followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1Cor 11:1). “Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me” (1Cor 4:16). “Brethren, be followers together of me,…” (Phil 3:17). “And ye became followers of us and of the Lord,…” (1Thes. 1:6). “For yourselves know how you ought to follow us:…. but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us” (2Thes 3:7,9).

Paul did not want anyone to “follow *him*”. In every case where Bible translations tell us to “follow” Paul, the Greek meaning is, “Follow my example or imitate me as I follow Christ’s example and imitate Him.”

Let’s say you and I have been good friends for years and one day you read in the Bible that you are to keep the Sabbath day holy. The next time you see me, you show that to me. If I am convinced and do likewise, I will follow your example or imitate you. That does not mean that I am “following” you or “going after” you.

That’s what Paul was saying when he said, “Imitate me, even as I also imitate Christ” (1Cor 11:1). Paul did not once tell anyone to get behind him as he went about his agenda. He asked people to imitate the ‘good examples’ of himself and others.

Other verses on “follow” when it means “to imitate”, are: Ephesians 5:1; 1 Thessalonians 2:14; Hebrews 6:12; 13:7; 1 Peter 3:13; and 3 John 11.

I am also one who has commented here about parental responsibility. Dave’s comment is a close summary of my belief on that as well. I’ll not rehash, except to reiterate that adult wives are not children.

Husbands and wives both bear responsibility for caring for one another. The greatest “un-role” example of this that I know of personally, is a young friend who’s husband has been in vegatative state for a number of years now. She, as his wife, lives love responsibly – seeing that he has the best care, in the best facility she can afford.

Mark,
Apology accepted!
“A challenge for us all, should be to keep Christ and His glory as THE foundation of all these discussions, any thing less is dishonourable.”
I agree completely! That’s the main reason I believe we must treat one another with brotherly love – I have been praying for you and am more than willing to continue discussing. Mark, if I’m in error, I sincerely do want to know. If you choose to continue, I do think it would be much more beneficial if you would “direct quote” others, instead of the misquote rephrasing – as Kristin and Dave gave examples. Blessings to you.

Craig,
Here’s another thought to consider on the “big picture” – even Christian marriages between God loving spouses can and do encounter circumstances and tragedies beyond their control that render the husband unable to lead anyone. Logic and life itself reveal that husbands having the protector/provider leader role is not a univeral truth. Because, clearly we’ve all encountered exceptions in the lives of Christian neighbors, friends and family members with disabilities, illness and aging issues, who cannot fulfill that “role” even if they wanted to.

If a “biblical role” can have even one small exception, then it cannot possibly be a command for every marriage.

Craig,
I feel certain those comments aren’t directed at you in any fashion. Dave’s been commenting here for some time – and we have already been thoroughly over these meanings with the comps who are engaged in the discussion. I think that end of the conversation is what he would be referring to – I’m sure Dave will assure you asap.

Mark,
It’s honorable to be defending what you believe, but it appears you are trying to create a dividing line here that comes uncomfortably close to a good versus evil judgment and I, as well as others, sense a bit of persecution. This seems to me a very unchristian dividing line. Of course, anyone committed to Christ should not simply accept all that they read uncritically. And yes, there will be passionate discussions – but here again, let’s not forsake the Law of Love while doing so.

Alison,

Thanks for being so honest about the painful maturing process you and your fiance experienced. The maturation of both of you would be very limited in a non-compromise his-way relationship. So, I think your “kids in the sandbox” illustration was spot on. I firmly believe it actually stunts us in our Christian walk and encourages childish behavior.

In other human relationships and activities most mature people understand and recognize that decision by the few is dangerously limiting, and realize that single points of view are only a tiny fraction of the realm of possibility.