Mara

Your are right, Hannah.
That was way off the wall.
God asked for Isaac (then provided a lamb in his place). God never asked for Jephthah’s daughter, ever. That was all Jephthah idiocracy.
Who the heck said that? A Patriarch? Atheist? Feminist?
Who? And what was the point? Just curious since I have NEVER heard that comparison before.
That one is right up there with saying that Abigail was acting in an “independent spirit” (i.e. not submitted to her husband). Therefore the blood of her husband was on HER head. In other words, that teacher held Abigail responsible for the death of her husband because she wasn’t properly submitted.
(Forgive spelling errors, typos. Son is pressuring me off the computer. He has a paper to write.)

Concerning the extra time given for uncleaness for a female baby as opposed to a male baby I’ve had a couple friends who didn’t know each other come to the same conclusion. This is NOT based on the words of the Bible but on the inner prayer closet of a couple of women who also wrestled with wondering if God loved them less as women. So it should not be put forth as Bible fact, but as women wrestling with God and the conclusions they have felt impressed with in deep, sincere, earnest prayer.

Both these friends, independently, felt as though the extra time given daughters was an extra long bonding time that the mother and daughter needed in a culture that favored sons. It, as mentioned above, kept the father out of the picture to make impatient demands on his wife. It also kept out older brothers who might be favored over the daughter. Basically it set up a time for mother and daughter to just be who they were and bond as such outside the boundary of overwhelmingly male influence, in a little world of their own. Hopefully the bonding time would help and support them both as they worked to figure out how to navigate the sometimes choppy waters of a male-dominated culture.

AFA Jephthah. I don’t know if that has anything to do with gender. His daughter was simply the first one out to greet him and he was an idiot for making such a rash vow. Others most likely have a better idea of it than me.

There’s that anti-spam word ‘live’ again.

Feeling that strong urge to praise God for coming in and giving us life more abundantly even while the thief tries to steal, kill, and destroy.

Ezekial 16:6b …I said to you while you were in your blood, “Live!”

Sue, Dave is apologizing for Sydney.

And I’m rejoicing that you have spewed out those bitter waters from Sydney and have found freedom and joy and rest in the arms of you Savior, the Lover of your soul, the Chief Cornerstone that the builders have rejected.

Sorry for spouting. It is just good to fear God rather than men.

May more women come out of that darkness, that bitterness, and walk into the freedom and Light God offers.

Lin you managed to get in two posts while I was writing one.
Good words.

Mark: “I understand people may be hurt or hurting by abuse but we should be careful we do not let sin creep into our lives with this hurt. Sin is a disease and and will harbour bitterness if we are not quick to recognise it. Jesus commanded us to forgive- are people doing this?”

Mark, we cross posted. I didn’t see yours that is right above mine until after I posted.

Let me tell you something. My real name is not Mara. It’s my internet name I use for the sake of protecting my family, yet being able to be real.
Mara means bitterness. I’m an expert. At both being bitter and getting out of it. My blog is me helping others find healing from bitterness.
My last name, for internet use, is Reid, which is symbolic of Jesus being the Bruised Reed, and also in reference to the story of Moses throwing the branch into the bitter waters at Marah and the waters being made sweet.

The point of me telling you all this is so that you know that I am very aware of bitterness, a root of bitterness, and what can be done to make the bitter waters sweet.

Patriarchy and some forms of comp (if not all) are bitter waters men (and some women) give women to drink. The pushers of Patriarchy
declare that the bitter waters they present are sweet and that if a woman refuses to drink these bitter waters but rather spits them out, she is guilty of rejecting Christ.
But women who hold their noses and drink the bitter waters anyway are no better off. Do you know why? Because drinking bitter waters make you bitter.

There is most definitly a time for forgiveness. But just about before the forgiveness process can even begin, women have had to wake up, realize the bitter waters people were giving them were, indeed, bitter, and they had to stop drinking it. They needed to find the real, true, sweet water that Jesus offers that has nothing to do with who is the head of whom. Then once they start drinking it straight from the Master’s hand rather from the bitter hands of the bitter teachers obsessing over who gets to be the boss, the healing, forgiveness and escape from bitterness can begin in earnest.

You can forgive and forgive and forgive for years and still be bitter, if you keep taking in bitter waters and never get to the freedom Christ really has for you.

If I sound angry, I’m not. If I sound like I’m judging you, I really am not. All I’m trying to do is help you to see that there is more to bitterness than not forgiving those who have wronged you. And many women are bitter, not just because they don’t forgive (many try and fail and try some more), but because all the water they are offered by the church is bitter.

I thought my anti-spam word was ‘love’ (out of the corner of my eye) but it is actually ‘live’. I like them both. I’m not telling you this because I don’t love you or think you don’t love me. You have always been gracious on this blog and I have no reason to not love you by your words. But I want to live, wild and free, in the grace and love God gives me freely. I don’t want it tainted by the doctrines or traditions of men. God’s grace, tempered by the restrictions men place on it threaten to make people bitter.
The church is full of those people, men and women. And sometimes the bitterness comes from a bad root in a doctrine rather than a root of unforgiveness.

Blessings Mark.
If I’ve not made myself clear, may God give you an understanding of what I’m trying to say, even if you don’t care to agree with it.

Lin: “There has been a lot of ugliness toward women for the last 20 years in the SBC. It started as soft comp and is now going into full blown Patriarchy.”

I told you, Mark. It has been creeping in bit by bit. It started off comp-light, phased through comp-heavy, and is now blatantly patriarchal.
None of this is your fault. But I hope it helps you to see why we are so resistant to the comp way of thinking.
Our fears are not based on rumor and false evidence. It’s based on watching the creep take more and more freedoms away from women all in the name of God. And the SBC is not the only place this is happening.

I like that quote from Quivering Daughters too.

Thank you Kay and gengwall.
I’m glad there are people who understand what I’m trying to say through all my fumbling around. And I appreciate you all.
I’ve been accused of not believing the whole counsel of scripture for suggesting that the Words of Jesus just might carry a bit more weight than Paul’s.
Jesus is our chief cornerstone. He is the stone that the builders rejected. And I hate to say it. But Patriarchs in totality and some comps have rejected His words to embrace their private interpretation of Paul’s words.
I’m not accusing our friend Mark, here. He may have that foundation fully in place in his relationship with his wife. So, Mark, I don’t want you to feel what I’m about to say applies to you or is directed toward you.
But I’ve met plenty a man who felt justified in demanding submission from his wife because that’s what the Bible said. And if he didn’t know any other verse in the Bible, he sure as heck knew where Ephesians 5:22 was because it defended his percieved, divine right as head/boss over his wife. In other words, his foundation for understanding who he was as a husband was askew.

Mark: “This is a gross overstatement. Not all who believe in the male headship define is a ‘dominant’ husband. How many times do people need to be told that comp theology is not about domination whether in relation to marriage, church or the Trinity.

I honestly see it as a misrepresentation. Too often egals link ‘domination’ with our theology. Either they are blinded to the actual teaching and or choose to ignore it.”

Or….
Egals have seen or experienced it carried out to this degree, as children or adults, or whatever.

Please, Mark, understand. I know there is a difference between patriarchy/hard comp and soft comp. I’ve posted on other blogs that I can co-exist with most soft comps.
I know it’s not right to sweep soft-comps off into the patriarch camp anymore than it’s right for some comps to say that egals hate their husbands and want to kill their children.

But also understand that there is a creeping going on. Perhaps not directly in your neck of compism. But is occurring nonetheless. Harder comp is becoming more mainstream. There are places like focus on the family that are embracing harder and harder versions of comp than what they did.

Many of us feel and see the creep. You can call it a gross overstatement. Perhaps you are right. But from my point-of-view, it looks more like a prophecy or foretelling of things to come. And it is frightful to behold.

In a nutshell, the reason I lean egal is because I see egals as having a firmer foundation. Their foundation rests squarely on the words of Christ. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you and if you would be great in God’s kingdom, then learn to be servant of all.”

Paul’s words in Ephesians are awesome. But they have been too easily twisted too long for me to see them as foundational as the words of Jesus Himself. Paul’s words are building blocks to the house of faith and marriage more than they are the foundation. But too many try to make his words the foundation to the exclusion of the word of Christ.
Too many put too much stock in Paul’s words and not enough stock in the words of Jesus. And this is where we get most of our trouble. Too many men are straining to obey their understanding of Paul’s words without realizing how they trample the words of Jesus in the process.

Darn this got long. And I’m not even done. But am going to stop anyway.

Thanks, David, for clearing up the Piper/SGM ministries thing for me. I really don’t want to run around passing off misinformation as fact.

For the record, I admit I’m one of those who can get pretty angry over remarks preachers make that don’t help the abused and can actually be used to hurt the abused further.

But stepping back and looking at it more objectively and less emotionally, I do believe both Cheryl and gengwall have answered you well. There is a foundational misunderstanding of the Gospel of Grace as it relates to gender, marriage, and roles that Piper misses.
Because he misses it, this creates holes in his understanding in several areas including the area of abuse. And with those holes in his understanding come holes in giving practical advice in those areas including abuse.

Plus the fact that Piper is such a nice guy, I really don’t think he gets the abusive mindset, at all. He gets being angry and not understanding human beings of the female gender. He gets that men are sometimes harsh and that some/many of those men can be won over by a soft answer from a female. But he doesn’t get that there are those who will be encouraged to abuse more when given a soft answer.

If you have any influence in your church, I encourage you to read and then recommend to Piper “Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men” by Lundy Bancroft. It will open your eyes if they aren’t open already. And it will open Piper’s eyes if he would be willing to read it.

I love the church, and the people in it with all their faults. The LAST thing I want to see is for the church, any part of the church, to become irrelevant to the world because of a faulty understanding of the Word of God.
The LASY thing I want to see is for the abused to leave the church and leave Jesus Christ due to faulty teaching, when it is Jesus who wants to heal their wounded souls.

Good to see activity here again.

PP sets my gag reflex in motion.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

Two weeks is what I’ve been hearing.
Yet others say, “Nah, just a couple of days.”

Was it tough going gengwell?
Was it as bad as they are all saying?
It’s getting awful close to where I live.
Were you vaccinated?

So, I take it, Andy, that men like Mark Driscoll may not be your favorites right now?

You don’t have to answer that.

My comment was just my way of agreeing that the “who would Jesus smack down” gospel is a false gospel.

While God is calling some to tone down, He calls others to stop burying their talents and wasting what God has given them.

In the end, what matters is how much we allow the love of God to flow through our hearts and onto others.

That thing Jesus said, you know, “Bless those who curse you.”
He meant that.
Tough word.
Powerful word.

Ooooh.
I could really use a fresh pot of coffee and a good book.
Thanks for the link TL

Andy: ‘“Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.” NKJV
So we have a fact that this practice was done during the first century.’

Question for you, Andy, if you are still around.
Do we know that this practice has gone away and no longer plagues us in the twenty-first century?
Or does such a teaching still exist under a different name, persona?
I’m not setting you up. I’m just wondering if you have noticed anything in your journeys.

🙂 my anti-spam word is timer. And this is a question concerning the times. 🙂 . Oh, well, it entertained me even if it didn’t entertain anyone else.

My anti-spam word this time was male.
And it leads into what I wanted to say to you, Andy.
Men and women need each other. I need you and other men.
We get in big trouble when the eye says to the hand, “I have no need of you.”
Women get frustrated when certain men think more highly of themselves than they ought and try to shut out women, basically saying, “I have no need of you, your ministry, your gifts.”
But women also, at least some of us, (guess I can’t speak for all)…
Anyway, stoney places in my heart melt when men put away from them the idea that they have preeminense over women and just extend the hand of brotherhood to their sisters.

TL: “All of God’s words to the woman are a warning of how life would now be.”

Men (not all. Like not you Mark and many of the good, godly men who comment here.) tend to be obsessed with “Who’s the boss.”
They (the obsessed ones) get all in a twist over who has the last word, who has the veto power etc.
They (the obsessed ones) really need to examine their hearts as to why their position of authority is so important the them that they need to add to God’s words in order to defend their privilege.
They (the obsessed ones), at least some of them, will not acknowledge the bitterness and insecurity within their own hearts nor will they admit they need healing.
They (some of the obsessed ones) would rather blame women or God for things than deal with darkness within themselves or false doctrine in the teachings and traditions of men.

My words may sound bitter. And I apologize.
My name means bitter and God is still working with me on it. I’m better than I used to be. But I still have a ways to go.
But one thing I know.
Women are not the only ones that deal with bitterness.
Mark, I’m not blaming you in any way of either being bitter or causing bitterness in others. But since I know bitterness, I recognize it very well in others. Again. Not you. You have been gracious and decent in all your words here. But in most all of the men who proclaim male headship loudly and defend it vehemently, there is a root of bitterness which springing up defiles many.

Bless your heart, Mark.
May the Lord lead you in all truth, as I hope He leads us all on this path of Life and Light.

Borrowed this quote from Molly’s Adventures in Mercy blog.
Thought it fit well.

“Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion—several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight.” –Mark Twain

Mark: “Do you think the husband has any authority over his wife?”

First of all Mark, Hi. I’m not Cheryl but am glad to see you here.
Second, I want to say that I am probably one of the ones who is a little short tempered with some comps and patriarchs. I should probably be sorry for it but am not right now.

You, on the other hand, and comps of your flavor I have a great deal more patience with and can talk to without my blood pressure rising much. The difference between you and the others is that the others DO demand submission. And some have even taught that wives that don’t submit in ALL things to their husbands (barring gross sin) are in danger of hell-fire and damnation. And it upsets me greatly because these preachers believe they are the door keepers of the Kingdom of heaven concerning women and have driven women away who need the love, healing, and salvation of God. These teachers have put the submission of women at such a high place in their religion that you would think that one of God’s names, beside The Lord your Healer and The Lord your Provider, was The Lord Who Made Men to Rule Over Women For All Eternity Amen and Amen. (Sound a little bitter? Maybe. But I think my anger toward that attitude is justified. If not, may the Lord show me my error, but gently since I am only dust anyway.)

So, anyway, sorry to you if some of my anger has spilled over onto you or any comps of your flavor. I’m sure you don’t deserve it.

Cheryl is quite a bit more gracious than I which I hope to learn from.

I also work in CPS in my state and deal with a lot of abuse of women and children and get angry when I see abuse of any kind including spiritual abuse and using the Bible to beat women and children into submission. I also hate the couple of cases I’ve seen where abusive women have beat their men over the head with “You gotta love me” verses while she’s acting like the devil.

No, but your logic must be firmly and prayerfully in place because, in general, men really must see the logic of it. Some of them must be given the chance to try to blow holes in the logic because they are just so sure the Bible says things it doesn’t. That stronghold is deeply rooted in them.

It’s the prayer against the scales on their eyes that will help prevent them from going off the deep end and declaring black, white, and white black just for the sake of being right, or entitled men, or whatever is going on inside of them (only God really knows their hearts).

So you may be downplaying your logic, and I understand why, but I had to let you know that I really appreciated it and that it is of premium importance in the equation along with prayer.

Keep up the good work! 🙂

It’s too long!
Can’t read it all!
Even in several sittings.
Haven’t given up yet.
Be back to read more, layta.

Very Good point, Waneta.
And since you are here let me tell you I appreciated all the points you made over on Hannah’s blog. I loved the point you made about men raising their pet doctrine (my words) of ‘wives submit’ to the level of a sacrament like baptism or the Lord’s supper. I’ve not seen that before but it put into words what I have been saying for years.

Sacrament, definition 1. from my Dictionary. any of certain rites ordained by Jesus and regarded as a means of grace: baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, holy orders, matrimony, and Anointing the Sick are the seven recognized by the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Eastern Churches; Protestants generally recognize only baptism and Holy Communion.

And this dovetails into what you said above.
It is as though heaven and earth can stand up under pretty much any sin a man can dish toward his wife. But if a woman doesn’t submit, then the foundations of heaven and earth, Christianity, and the throne of God are shaken (not to mention the family). Because the ‘divine order’ (CBMW words) is not being followed.
It is as though the foundation of Christianity is not the Blood of Jesus shed for our sins, but rather the foundation is the Christian family. And the foundation of the family is dependent on whether a woman submits to her husband. (not whether a husband treats his wife right)

I know, I know. It appears as though I am exaggerating.
But like you said, whatever the husband dishes out is little. A wife’s unwillingness to submit, though, is huge.

And this is one reason I tell people to quit looking at Ephesians chapter 5 (the words of Paul) as the foundational scriptures for the family. [I know, blasphamy, right?].
But instead, look at the words of Jesus Himself, our Foundation, our Chief Cornerstone, the Author and Finisher of our faith.

His words, the two greatest commandments (that sum up the ten), the Golden rule, and that little bit about, ‘if you would be great in God’s Kingdom, then learn to be servant of all.’ These words from the mouth of Jesus are good for the goose AND the gander toward the goose.

Then, if you like, build on the foundation with Paul’s words. With a foundation of ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you,’ this would cure a lot of marriage problems. Men, if they were honest with God and themselves, would have to ask, “Would I want to be treated the way I’m treating my wife right now?”

I could go on, but this has already gotten too long. Sorry Cheryl. Thanks for your indulgence toward me on this topic.

I know, Hannah. I saw that.
I was going to respond but thought I better hold off since I am probably way over my limit.

I have only recently become aware that Piper is part of SGM (Soveriegn Grace Ministries) (Correct me if I’m wrong, anybody). And there are several support sites for those who have been chewed up and spit out by SGM.
People like Nick who are in good standing with SGM have no clue the damage that is being done. He wants to hold onto the simplistic quick-fixes that SGM have for family issues, claiming that since it is in The Word of God, it must work. They don’t like it when people point out that the flaws of such a mindset. They pretty much freak when you threaten the delicate (and false) balance of their view of God, men, women, the universe, and everything.
So my posts are written with SGMsurvivours in mind, rather than people like Nick.

Thanks, Hannah for hosting that converstation and pointing out the folly of men like Piper.
And thanks Savannah and A. Amos Love for taking part in it.
I’m sure it helped some of those precious, wounded lurkers who were too timid to post but still hold onto the hope that God sees them and wants to heal them.

Savannah: “Because of Piper’s views on the second-class citizenship of women in the kingdom, I have pretty much dismissed him completely. I used to try to cull out the useful and edifying points of his theology and dismiss the nonsense, but it seems that his ministry and theology are increasingly ‘built around’ male domination. Perhaps if I was male, I’d be better at compartmentalizing the ‘women need to put up with anything dished out to them stuff’ but being female, it makes it a little more difficult to integrate. I have been told by men I respect that ‘that’s just a secondary’ consideration, but I can honestly say that I bet it’s a whole lot easier for it to be secondary to them because it doesn’t seek to harm or marginalize them.”

Actually, Savannah, I wish I could cut and paste your above words on Hannah’s blog. They are very good. They get to the point and are not inflamatory (am I spelling that right? I’m a lousy speller) like mine so are not so easily dismissed.
But they are your words and belong to you. So my secondary wish would be for you to go to Hannah’s site (click on her name) and post them yourself since you are the author of them.

I was going to go back a post on your site again, Hannah. But you and Waneta have it taken care of. And I think what you said is better than what I said. What I have said is pretty inflamatory. And you know what they say, the more inflamatory, the less people who disagree are able to take it seriously. What I posted was more for those who HAVE left Christianity because of numbskulls like Piper, or those who are entertaining the idea. Those who want to debate Piper, Piper followers, and Piper ideas need to do so the way you gals have.

Pan, I also want to welcome you.
Your choice to walk away is understandable.
Your input and point of view are appreciated.

Speaking of abuse…

Here’s a poem I found at another site.

http://eaandfaith.blogspot.com/

You might like one of the reactions on this verbal abuse forum to John Piper’s suggested Stepford Wives response to the husband asking the wife to participate in group sex.

http://www.drirene.com/catbox/index.php?showtopic=79202

The reaction was made by going4good and is #3 in the thread.