Mike

The Bible gives evidence that debate and discussion were a prominent part of the New Testament experience.  Without it, where are the checks and balances to what is preached in the name of “Jesus”..? 
Acts 17:11 indicates that even Paul emphasized this when he noted the Bereans being more noble than the Thessalonicans because they were studying those things out that were preached (Mike adds:  not necessarily buying everything Paul was selling) to see if those things were true. Aren’t we supposed to be diligent in our studies?  Aren’t we supposed to be responsible when we perceive error by calling it out for debate and discussion?  Doesn’t that process make us stronger vice weaker?
I have had the privilege to lead a number of folks to the Lord and to disciple many as well and I have never minded when folks ask hard questions – I think it makes us all better…  Just mho…  MM

Cheryl,

I have been thinking the same thing.  I was recently talking with a dear friend of mine in Ireland and the church body that his Father has pastored for some time has recently shifted back to house meetings and away from traditional ‘church’.  They are apparently experiencing great things since the shift.

Wouldn’t that just be an exciting thing to witness.  Amen sister, I’m with you on that one..!  MM

This is a very good subject and dialogue.  Thank you Cheryl for hosting such a wonderful place to discuss all this.  I’m getting so blessed reading your blog – I also appreciate all the contributors here as well; its really cool.

I have also experienced more than my share of this over the course of serving the Lord for 25+ years.  I’ve come to the conclusion that our present model for ‘church’ has so many flaws and is so far from the example that we were given in the New Testament church; its no wonder this goes on.  Of course it took me a couple of decades to come to that conclusion; all the while getting shut down, accused, and in some cases shunned for the contribution that I was trying to bring to the table.

There is true beauty in this little community that you folks have going on here.  Keep it up.  I may not comment a whole lot Cheryl, but I am reading regularly and I am getting so much out of it.  Thank you all so much for all of this; it means a lot to me…  MM

Wow, you folks do a lot of writing and fast – I’m going to need a PhD to keep up with all of this…  😉

I would like to offer (IMHO) that when Adam was first made, he was a complete representative of God – after the separation of the aspects of God’s person into two distinct beings, a situation was created where the two needed each other in order to fully represent the totality of God on all levels… Thoughts..?

Secondly, I would agree that we need to allow the two genders to remain two genders – or we give credence to the homosexual argument – we are two genders, in need of each other, distinct and different, however neither one has a full representation of God within them in the natural – this can only be accomplished by the spirit man dwelling inside all of us, but is still not an easy task by any means… I don’t think that it means females are supposed to try and act like males, or vice versa.  I tend to think that we each have equally valuable, yet different characteristics to bring to the table…

Thirdly, I would argue that we are all man – sons – etc…  The term used to express Eve’s character was an addition to the original – ish for Adam, (post separation) and ishah for Eve – meaning if you will, a man with a womb – Eve completed Adam, and vice versa – each had the ability to pro-create and grow the vision of the concept of the ‘body of Christ – the church, the bride, etc.” – each being has many differences and many similarities on all levels – but I still point to the fact that God set it up this way – so we would depend on each other for completeness – not just in marriage…

Look, if I can be a bride, you women can be a man, son, etc…  😉  that was just as fun to say as it was to read…  lol 🙂

My last point – in marriage, in society, in church (etc.) we need each other to bring wholeness and completeness to the table – the early church figured this out pretty quickly – of course they had Jesus as their teacher – he set the tone, the church followed in earnest – God generally (not always) uses males to start a thing (probably because we possess the need to cast the seed – another discussion) – I’ve seen women start a thing, but more often than not its a male – but once the thing is up and running, again IMHO, all bets are off – everybody is needed and has a place.

I would encourage us all to allow the various differences that we bring to the table (not just the gender ones) – we need all that expression within the church – again, in my mind the question still has not been answered – what is the best way to do this on a practical level?  I’ve seen so many variations – but not too many of them were very effective…

I like this blog site by the way Cheryl et al. I’ve been reading a lot of your stuff – you may be on to something – I’m just trying to understand it all and figure out in my small little brain, how we can take this learning and apply it on a practical level within the church?  How can we overcome the barriers? There may be a vein of gold here that the church needs – I wanted you to know that I recognize that…  😉  MM

To the average reader (like me who is new to the site), it would appear that what you are pushing is the idea that nobody has any real authority to do anything – calling leaders impotent, while empowering the average Joe – makes no sense to me…

Then why would they be leaders, if they have no real purpose or no authority?  Doesn’t somebody have to have some kind of authority?  Without it, aren’t we all subject to the whims that blow along – like what Israel experienced in the book of Judges – they did that which was right in their own sight..?  Maybe that is where we really are today in the church, and why we have so many problems..?

While I generally agree with a lot of what has been said here, I don’t buy the whole nobody is really in charge, the whole body is in charge bit – that is probably the most impractical thing I have ever read – at the end of the day, there must be a real, no kidding, practical answer to all of this.  If there isn’t, then all the discussion in the world is worthless, because we all have to walk all of this out day by day – and we have a great commission to carry out – and what is all that talk about like good soldiers, and all authority in heaven and earth is given unto me, therefore go ye, and wives submit to your husbands, and submit to those in authority over you, and they are ministers of God to carry out justice – while we can argue over each individual piece, we can’t ignore the general theme…

The world is dying and going to hell, but we are all so caught up in our discussions about whether or not we should obey, or listen to someone; and the obvious flaws in the King James Version; and all the other political stuff – may God help us all!  Because, while all this wrangling is going on, nothing is getting done toward the great commission…

I’m sorry for throwing a wet blanket on things.  I like spending time blogging and reading as much as the next person, but if we don’t come up with something that is practical and workable, and something that contributes toward fulfilling the great commission and its associated responsibilities – then where does that leave us?  I can see the Lord now; well folks, I’m glad you have great teaching, and can claim great success in your ministries, but it seems you might be missing the point of all of this – so get out there and bring the good news to the lost and dying, please…  😉

I admit that leaders have obviously and ruthlessly mis-construed their part in the big game; and I admit that there have been horrible consequences due to folks misusing their perceived power; and I admit to major failings in the way we’ve carried out church – abuse of power, etc. yada, yada, yada – its all true!  But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.  Our military works well because we understand what true authority is and how it is best applied – aside from the occasional anomaly.  The church would do well to learn some lessons about ‘right authority’ and ‘right submission’ – ‘right leadership’ and ‘right followership’ – I think this would be a good topic to address and start a discussion thread on – maybe I’ll just go back to my blog @ http://churchblogm.blogspot.com/ – its not real popular yet, but I’d like to put my thoughts on the table more succinctly – thanks for your patience with me…  😉   MM

Hi Cheryl,
Cool site.  I agree that your listed myths are just that.  Being new to your site, I’m getting up to speed on your hosted discussions and the many folks who participate.
I probably bring a little different perspective – forgive me for any ignorance I may express – I make no claims to be expert in any of this, but would appreciate the opportunity to participate.
I had a profound experience when I got saved as a sailor aboard a ship – several years went by before I set foot inside of any church; only having the bible and my relationship with him to draw from.  I’ve been saved for over 25 years now – but have struggled with church and its associated issues. 
I’ve met some of the most powerful women on the planet and heard them minister the word, work miracles, etc.  I don’t have any issues there.  I have also noticed that many women who are trying to break out of this seeming prison that the church has created, come across as dis-enfranchised and a bit cutting when expressing who they are in the church.  I’m not so sure that that approach is the wisest…  is that ok to say?
I had my own church for awhile, along with several real powerful street type ministries and missions, and I had two ladies who were just awesome.  I didn’t have any problems with them teaching, preaching, bearing major responsibilities within our realm of ministry.  They did great – one had a heathen husband, and the other’s wasn’t the brightest light bulb in the room – knowadumean..?
But they both were very gracious and didn’t let their femininity get in the way.  I know they were criticized a lot by other churches’ members, and they shared their own testimonies of growing up in the church – sounded really bad.  I respected them for who they were as people.
I’ve been married over 20 years to the same woman – I can say that we are having some real problems right now – we lost our oldest son at 22 years of age to a commercial diving accident during hurricane Katrina recovery, she lost both of her parents to cancer within the last year, I recently lost my job, and my house is going to auction this Thursday, can’t pay the mortgage any more…  reader’s digest version…
I was horrified me to see how the church (many that we’ve been affiliated with for years) has handled us and our trials.  I can’t tell you how many women of God have told her to leave me – because I’m worthless; or how many men of God have told me to let her go because she isn’t worthy, not submitting to me and all.  It has really hurt us – but you know what, the bottom line is that I really love her and she really loves me…
We don’t always get it right, and we fight from time to time – we wrestle with what is the right answer, who should make this decision, and how does authority, order, etc., play into all of this.  I can tell you; when you’re in the soup, its nice to know that your brothers and sisters (even if they’re your wife or husband) don’t make these the primary issues, but rather love you for who and where you are, and genuinely support you – teach you, give you resources, pitch in a helping hand, pray for you, forgive you, etc…
I can honestly say that my wife is the most powerful woman of God I’ve ever met in my life – and she would (and usually does) run circles around me and probably most of you when it comes to ministry.  It doesn’t intimidate me one bit, I thrive on watching her express who she is in Christ, it is genuinely exciting to watch; and I’m always amazed.  She plays to her strength, I play to mine and the Lord acts as the conductor to this great orchestra, leading it to accomplish his desires.  Its not without its trials however, and I would admonish any who dare try what we are doing to be forewarned, its not for the faint of heart…  😉
I would like to see a lot more grace in the church.  If a man or a woman has something to share, from their unique, god-given perspective, I say share it to whomever is available – we all need what you got – male or female – we are different, we think different, we experience life differently, but lets try and find a way to allow expression for all of that – I say, stop worrying about who is in charge, or who’s who in the zoo – let people be who they are, we need every gift, every anointing, every call, every talent, etc. – all hands on deck right now – this world is going down fast, and we are all arguing about silly things in the church…  sorry, that was me venting – not necessarily to you  😉
Most of what you are all discussing seems to me like it falls within the confines of the structures that we’ve created – church structures, leadership structures, educational structures, and even home structures.  I honestly don’t buy most of it.  The Bible and its teaching transcends time, culture, lifestyle, geography, etc.  Its not bound the way we think it is.  Jesus never meant to imprison us in our own self made structures, but to embolden us to be his ambassadors to care for a lost and dying world.
So, I’m not sure where I fall within your structures – but I hope you find a way to liberate folks from them – both men and women – freedom is an awesome responsibility – respect it, love it, perpetuate it – that is my humble opinion…  MM