Modern Myths About The Titus 2 Woman

Another point is that Titus 2 is giving advice to (ta da) Titus!

In the culture of that time, it would not be appropriate for a young man to meet with a young woman, there would be an assumption of adultery by the society.  In order to avoid the appearance of evil in that society, Titus cannot teach the young women, so Paul tells him to delegate that task to the older women, or women elders; this avoids any false appearances.

Titus can teach the older men/elders, older women/elders, and young men himself.

Most non-egals that teach about Titus 2 women do it from the entirely wrong perspective, as they do not catch the concern that Paul has.

Don,

As usual your observations are excellent and a very important point regarding the reason for writing the instructions to Titus.

I also believe there is much significance in the fact that this concerned believers in Crete. Paul described them as lazy and irresponsible (among other things). It stands to reason that the women there were not minding their homes, so the believing women who were elders were to get these lazy women up to speed socially.

That is the reason for the emphasis on basic domestic instructions for the women. The church did not need a bad reputation in society, even in Crete, and the women had an extra hurdle to jump. And obviously Titus himself could not be a role model to the women.

It’s quite ironic that when we point these things out, we’re accused of engaging in “gymnastics”, yet our critics engage in much more elaborate gymnastics when it suits them, even sometimes to the point of adding to scripture (such as “a sign of authority on her head”). I guess context only matters when strong, leading women in scripture are to be hammered down.

Paula #3,

In addition to the irony you point out, it’s also rather funny when you consider an old episode of “All in the Family” when Edith Bunker caught Archie in a logical contradiction and says something to the effect of—“But Archie, you just said…” and true to form Archie retorts… “Never mind what I said Edith!…”

That’s right, Greg. Or they’ll whip out “have a problem with authority” or “bow to culture” or a hundred other diversions.

I never cease to be amazed at what they mine out of the Titus 2 verse. They can provide a list a mile long of rules and roles out of one verse!

I have some Kenneth Bailey DVDs someplace.  He has a good handle on the cultural aspect of the hard passages of scripture.  I will have to dig out his material again and rewatch when I have time.

A little along the line of Don’s observation, we always seem to come around to thinking about teaching as doctrinal impartation and not relational discipleship.
A man cannot – for a number of reasons – fully disciple a woman. And it works the other way around too. When true teaching occurs there is much more context involved than merely exchange of information. Of course there are an unlimited number of “things” that we are able to teach each other; women and men to boys and girls, and as most parents know – even things that children can teach us.
The reason many of the solutions to these seemingly very difficult questions are so hard to implement is because of deeper root issues, such as failure to fully understand who we really are, both as the Church and who we are individually in Christ. But-we are making some headway-be it at significant cost. (Strange–I can’t seem to find much on this site that brings that aspect up, Cheryl!;-)

Hi Cheryl,
Cool site.  I agree that your listed myths are just that.  Being new to your site, I’m getting up to speed on your hosted discussions and the many folks who participate.
I probably bring a little different perspective – forgive me for any ignorance I may express – I make no claims to be expert in any of this, but would appreciate the opportunity to participate.
I had a profound experience when I got saved as a sailor aboard a ship – several years went by before I set foot inside of any church; only having the bible and my relationship with him to draw from.  I’ve been saved for over 25 years now – but have struggled with church and its associated issues. 
I’ve met some of the most powerful women on the planet and heard them minister the word, work miracles, etc.  I don’t have any issues there.  I have also noticed that many women who are trying to break out of this seeming prison that the church has created, come across as dis-enfranchised and a bit cutting when expressing who they are in the church.  I’m not so sure that that approach is the wisest…  is that ok to say?
I had my own church for awhile, along with several real powerful street type ministries and missions, and I had two ladies who were just awesome.  I didn’t have any problems with them teaching, preaching, bearing major responsibilities within our realm of ministry.  They did great – one had a heathen husband, and the other’s wasn’t the brightest light bulb in the room – knowadumean..?
But they both were very gracious and didn’t let their femininity get in the way.  I know they were criticized a lot by other churches’ members, and they shared their own testimonies of growing up in the church – sounded really bad.  I respected them for who they were as people.
I’ve been married over 20 years to the same woman – I can say that we are having some real problems right now – we lost our oldest son at 22 years of age to a commercial diving accident during hurricane Katrina recovery, she lost both of her parents to cancer within the last year, I recently lost my job, and my house is going to auction this Thursday, can’t pay the mortgage any more…  reader’s digest version…
I was horrified me to see how the church (many that we’ve been affiliated with for years) has handled us and our trials.  I can’t tell you how many women of God have told her to leave me – because I’m worthless; or how many men of God have told me to let her go because she isn’t worthy, not submitting to me and all.  It has really hurt us – but you know what, the bottom line is that I really love her and she really loves me…
We don’t always get it right, and we fight from time to time – we wrestle with what is the right answer, who should make this decision, and how does authority, order, etc., play into all of this.  I can tell you; when you’re in the soup, its nice to know that your brothers and sisters (even if they’re your wife or husband) don’t make these the primary issues, but rather love you for who and where you are, and genuinely support you – teach you, give you resources, pitch in a helping hand, pray for you, forgive you, etc…
I can honestly say that my wife is the most powerful woman of God I’ve ever met in my life – and she would (and usually does) run circles around me and probably most of you when it comes to ministry.  It doesn’t intimidate me one bit, I thrive on watching her express who she is in Christ, it is genuinely exciting to watch; and I’m always amazed.  She plays to her strength, I play to mine and the Lord acts as the conductor to this great orchestra, leading it to accomplish his desires.  Its not without its trials however, and I would admonish any who dare try what we are doing to be forewarned, its not for the faint of heart…  😉
I would like to see a lot more grace in the church.  If a man or a woman has something to share, from their unique, god-given perspective, I say share it to whomever is available – we all need what you got – male or female – we are different, we think different, we experience life differently, but lets try and find a way to allow expression for all of that – I say, stop worrying about who is in charge, or who’s who in the zoo – let people be who they are, we need every gift, every anointing, every call, every talent, etc. – all hands on deck right now – this world is going down fast, and we are all arguing about silly things in the church…  sorry, that was me venting – not necessarily to you  😉
Most of what you are all discussing seems to me like it falls within the confines of the structures that we’ve created – church structures, leadership structures, educational structures, and even home structures.  I honestly don’t buy most of it.  The Bible and its teaching transcends time, culture, lifestyle, geography, etc.  Its not bound the way we think it is.  Jesus never meant to imprison us in our own self made structures, but to embolden us to be his ambassadors to care for a lost and dying world.
So, I’m not sure where I fall within your structures – but I hope you find a way to liberate folks from them – both men and women – freedom is an awesome responsibility – respect it, love it, perpetuate it – that is my humble opinion…  MM

RMacD,

You said:  “A man cannot – for a number of reasons – fully disciple a woman.”

I am not 100% sure I know what you mean by this.  A man may have difficulties helping a woman with emotional issues, but in spiritual issues, I do not think there is a spiritual barrier.  If we look at Titus 2 we will see the elder women told to help out with home issues, but no mention is directly made to disciple them spiritually or to teach them the bible.  Does this mean that women should never teach the bible to anyone including women?  This question should only come up if one is already prejudiced to women.  Otherwise why should we think that the handling of God’s words belong to the hands of men alone?

I have had men tell me that they learned more from me than any pastor they had.  No one yet has told me that I failed in some way to mentor them because of my exterior physical parts.  Yet we are told that we cannot say that we do not need others in the body of Christ.  So I should never say that a male is not needed by women disciples or that a woman teacher is not needed by men.  We all need each other and each one has a gift or treasure that we can share with each other.

If I missed your point, I am sorry.  It has been an extremely busy day for me and I am to lead a bible study tomorrow with some unsaved seniors as Canada celebrates Remembrance Day so there is preparation needed.

Hi Mike,

I left what I call The Institution several years ago. I’ve found that most churches are following flawed paradigms for one reason or another, but in recent years there has been an explosion of very dangerous and harmful trends. It is truly rare to find fellowship with all but a handful in our communities. So many of us consider these online venues our real “church”.

One sign of the end times is that “the love of many will grow cold” (Mt. 24:12), and I think that’s what you’re describing coming from some people. It is unthinkable to me that anyone would try to break up your marriage due to a lost job or a wife who actually thinks she’s fully human! 🙂

Rest assured the people here wouldn’t dream of such a thing, and will pray for your job situation. Stick around!

Mike,

I want to give you a hearty welcome!  You are welcome here no matter whether you agree with us or not.  There is a special community here of both men and women who care about others and I hope that we can help you in some way.

I am sorry that you have so many struggles right now and that other Christians have made your suffering even worse instead of holding you up in prayer and other support.   the fact that you say you love your wife and she loves you and you are still together even through all that you have been through is a very strong point showing that others may be judging unjustly from outside the marriage looking in.

You said:

We don’t always get it right, and we fight from time to time – we wrestle with what is the right answer, who should make this decision, and how does authority, order, etc., play into all of this.

In most marriages we are in a “dance” together where we need to continue to work together giving of ourselves so that we have a one-flesh union.  It isn’t always easy.  As far as who has the authority, that is a little like asking which part of the body should go through the door first.  If you lean forward so that your head goes through the door first, you may fall on your face.  If you lean back so that both of your feet go through the door first, you may fall backwards.  Marriage shouldn’t be an issue of authority or who is first, but working hard to be a united force.  It this unity it only seems logical that the one who is gifted in an area should make the decisions in that area.  Yet opposition from one spouse is a perfect opportunity to bow the knees in prayer and ask the Lord to intervene and give unity.  There should be many opportunities to serve the other spouse with cheerful submission or cheerful sacrifice.

You said:

I can tell you; when you’re in the soup, its nice to know that your brothers and sisters (even if they’re your wife or husband) don’t make these the primary issues, but rather love you for who and where you are, and genuinely support you – teach you, give you resources, pitch in a helping hand, pray for you, forgive you, etc…

This in realty is all about grace which we as a church should have more of for one another.

You said:

If a man or a woman has something to share, from their unique, god-given perspective, I say share it to whomever is available – we all need what you got – male or female – we are different, we think different, we experience life differently, but lets try and find a way to allow expression for all of that – I say, stop worrying about who is in charge, or who’s who in the zoo – let people be who they are, we need every gift, every anointing, every call, every talent, etc. – all hands on deck right now –

Amen!

So, I’m not sure where I fall within your structures – but I hope you find a way to liberate folks from them – both men and women – freedom is an awesome responsibility – respect it, love it, perpetuate it – that is my humble opinion…  MM

I am not so big myself on unbendable “structures”.  A foot works best for walking and jumping and kicking but if a hand is missing, the toes can pick up the slack and they can be used to feed the body.  Where I used to work there was a lady who did not have any arms.  She did all of her work – typing, filing, etc with her feet.  No one told her that she wasn’t allowed to do that because her feet were not hands.  The job got done and she was an encouragement to us.

Mike, freedom indeed is an awesome responsibility.  We should not flaunt our freedom, but we should thank God for it and use our freedom to help others be free as well.

‘I left what I call The Institution several years ago. I’ve found that most churches are following flawed paradigms for one reason or another, but in recent years there has been an explosion of very dangerous and harmful trends. It is truly rare to find fellowship with all but a handful in our communities. So many of us consider these online venues our real “church”.’

Thank you.

Let no egal or comp judge me. I was never even able to align myself with the dreadful ‘institution’.

Welcome to The Revolution, Pinklight! 🙂

Yeah, I’m trying to smile as I’ve feel so ‘left out’, as I could NOT enter the door of the instituion, at least not without giving up myself (humanity) and my God at the same time…

I know all about standing outside in the rain, looking in the windows at all the happy people inside. But this isn’t our home, our party. That’s coming later, and it’ll be well worth the wait. Hang in there.

Cheryl, I don’t think the issue here is primarily gender related, as much as Institutional, which I think has been brought out by some of the others in this thread. Titus 2 really involves the issue of needed biblical discipleship and not merely a hierarchy of Western rationalism.

Titus 2 begins by focusing on “things which are fitting for sound doctrine. (or healthy teaching–for Paul points out in other epistles that there are certainly less edifying teachings-such as holy days, and foods). A problem with many of the traditional church structures is the “really important” teaching has been limited to philosophical or theological doctrinal issues, only considering them as “the” spiritual issues. You even seem to separate the “emotional” from the “spiritual”, but as you also know far too well, this is not realistic. I truly applaud your necessary apologetic work. However,  your (valid) “gender” revelations are hitting a lot of the guys in the gut, much like Peter’s vision to eat unclean food. (guys are not emotionally driven-huh?!) What we are wrestling with is far more complex than the Institutional Enlightenment worldview seems to see.

Teaching men (particularly us older guys) to be temperate and sensible is a spiritual endeavor, not merely an informational download. Those things listed in Titus take the work of the Holy Spirit – for all of us. Even the gender issues are rooted in our failure to see “knowledge-and the teaching of it” -in the context of relational discipleship.

There were some things my wife needed to learn that only another sister could lead her into-having been there herself. We live in a “yet-not yet” kingdom and women are only “weaker vessels” because a fallen culture has placed them at a disadvantage. (See the great translation of 1 Pet 3:7 in The Message) We all need each others giftings as we learn, and no one individual can “fully disciple” us into holistic maturity.

“I also believe there is much significance in the fact that this concerned believers in Crete. Paul described them as lazy and irresponsible (among other things). It stands to reason that the women there were not minding their homes, so the believing women who were elders were to get these lazy women up to speed socially.”

Excellent point Paula.  You illustrate yet another reason why we cannot just helicopter verses out of the contextual home (which includes the era they were addressing) and interpret them without any clothes on.  Context is always key.

“She plays to her strength, I play to mine and the Lord acts as the conductor to this great orchestra, leading it to accomplish his desires.  Its not without its trials however, and I would admonish any who dare try what we are doing to be forewarned, its not for the faint of heart… “

Great description Mike!  Sounds awesome.  FWIW, it is good to remember that growth and learning is always a struggle and sometimes painful.  But all growth is worth the cost. It is sad that other’s have not seen the blessings as you have.

Pinklight,  join those of us who are on the outside looking in, as Paula so aptly put it.  I ache and long for a ‘regular’ group of folk to fellowship with, but having recently left the institution, also, I, too, value these online ‘fellowship’ connections.  I still pray for and keep an eye out for some kind of group or gathering-midweek or otherwise-informal or formal-to which I could belong.  As it is, I gather fellowship here and there via conversations in person and otherwise where I can.  It seems, as an egalitarian, my local choices are either comp churches, or egal churches so liberal that I would have to embrace gay theology or seeker friendly mania, etc.

Mike, welcome!  This is one of the safest, most respectful Christian sites you will find!  I am praying for you and your wife’s circumstances.

RMacD,

Good thoughts!  It is always good to have a man’s perspective brought forth too.  We do indeed need all of us for discipleship.  This makes me think that women have it better then men.  They are allowed to have both male and female teachers.  In many places men are only allowed to have men teachers and so they miss out on seeing the full 3D view.  Keep the good thoughts coming!

Hey, I am allowed to have female teachers.

As Paul wrote “ALL may … teach ….” so it is a question if one chooses to listen.

LOL Don!

The thing that bothers me is the idea that the only thing women need instruction on is how to be proper and good ‘lil women’, cooking, cleaning, nurturing children, responding well to men.  If I thought that is all life was about, I think I beg with God to take me home now.

LOL Don, Tiro….thanks for the votes of confidence in God’s ability to create women with the ability to fully function as His followers and children and the biblical support to do so as well.  It is an eerie and sad thing to set foot inside a church that is filled with muted Stepford wives.

The interesting thing is that the New Testament has no example of a woman teaching women the bible.  Hierarchists readily admit that women are to teach women the bible, but where do they get that from?  It is from our understanding that we are spiritually equal and when we are told to teach the scriptures this means it is applicable for everyone regardless of race, gender or social standing.

Re: Titus 2:3-5

Given the interpretation of some about women staying in the home, where does that leave seniors who have no children at home and/or widows who live alone and housework is nil.  Are they not wasting their time and talents?

“Titus 2:5 (NAS) to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.”
Can this verse be turned against complementarians?
In the ancient near east of the time, the culture was such that the word of God would have been dishonored by the unbelievers if women did not subject. (“See those Christians? They don’t allow the man his proper place! Christianity is bad for society!” – thinkers of the time period.)
But in the current world, the word of God is being dishonored because of complimentarians! (“See those Christians? They don’t allow the woman her proper place! Christianity is bad for society!” – today’s critics.)
It seems that “so that the word of God will not be dishonored” is the real biblical principle of the verse, and the first part about a method to achieve the goal. And in the interest of not dishonoring His word, we should show the “neither male nor female” aspect in marriages.
Could it be that complimentarians miss the principle in Titus 2:5?

great point, Retha. Thanks for sharing.

Retha,

The answer is no.

The ‘principle’ as you say is actually a result clause (so that).

In other words you do “A” (sensible, pure, workers at home) SO THAT “B” may be acheived (the word of God maligned).

You cannot simply change A to suit your own agenda or culture. To do so detracts from the authority of scripture and ironically in turn, “malignes the word of God”.

Believe the words of God and obey them. God’s instructions are for our good.

Notice that the reason is so that unbelievers will not dishonor God’s word just as Retha said.

What Mark is doing is making a “principle” so that it is a result of the woman’s nature that she must stay home and not doing so causes Christians to offend God. That totally changes the reason from the unbeliever to God’s offense which doesn’t match up with what He has said elsewhere.

Jolly good try, Mark, glad to know you are still looking at the blog. I am on a sabbatical still for a time as I am still in an overwhelmed state. Hopefully you will catch up with us when I come back so you can share how you keep all women bound to one role when God gifts and calls many of them for the service of His Word and His body.

Retha, welcome, sorry I haven’t been around much to answer questions here, but I hope to be back on my blog when I get some things off my “plate”.