TL

Christ being under God’s authority diminishes His divinity. Doesn’t work.

“Also, if “head” in this verse does equate to source, beginning, or corner stone, then how does that relate to “and the head of Christ is God”? I don’t know of any verses in Scripture that show that God was Christ’s foundation? Or that God is the corner stone of Christ? “

When the Holy Spirit hovered over Mary and caused her to become pregnant with Jesus, that is when God Eloheim was the source or cornerstone or beginning of Christ the Messiah. Remember that Christ is both God and Perfect Human, the miracle that made Him able to suffer death so that we could be saved through His sacrifice.

Craig 238,

thank you for your graciousness and sincerity. I look forward to hearing what your further thoughts are.

Craig 226,

No one has changed the meaning of kephale. We all agree that it means the head on ones shoulders. However, when any word is used as a metaphor, then we can only truly get the gist of the meaning by paying close attention to how it is used in context. We don’t want to pull it out of it’s metaphor. What is happening with that word is that the hierarchalists are attaching a modern English metaphor to the ancient Greek metaphor which has no backing in the Greek of the era in question.

Other than that, all words do have a range of meanings anyway which we need to pay attention to in context. However, what is happening with CBMW’s definitions of authority and leadership is that they are going outside the range of the words’ normal meanings and in effect beginning to change the meanings. They’ve already done that successfully with the meaning of complementing in the new term complementarian. Those who understand the meaning of the word according to Webster’s think they are talking about how two people’s differences can complete and support each other. This is hinted at by the phrase “equal but different”. But that isn’t how they are using it. In fact the phrase ‘equal but different’ is tweaked strangely also.

As a person who believes in Biblical equality I can say that I believe strongly that all people are equal but different, and of course men and women are equal but different. But I don’t mean it the way that CBMW promotes it. Also, I’d say that egals live the dictionary meaning of ‘complementarian’ better than many firm hierarchalists do.

This is what all the definition confusion is about.

LOL Gengwall. yes, and apparently regrettable as well! I’ll have to alert some of my friends that we need to find it and watch it.

gengwall, yep never saw the movie. 🙂 it all sounds delightful though.

““Quick, someone get SM a holocaust coat, a screaming eel, and a rodent of unusual size!””

Gengwall, I suspect it refers to getting someone something to wake them up. LOL Thanks for the laughter. You must be a real card in real life. 🙂

good ramblings Dave. 🙂

“It was all the “little” things where his will and his decisions overrode mine that took away my personality. I do not believe that God gave husbands the “right” to override their wife’s will by unilaterally having the final say in these “little” disagreements.”

Cheryl,
You are right that this is where a woman or anyone will die and lose herself. It reminds me of the movie (eternal bride to be or something??) where the woman so attuned herself to the man’s desires that she lost herself. She no longer knew what she wanted, what she liked, what she wanted to be. She had enmeshed herself into her husband to be’s will in order to please him, so she no longer had any herself. And she’d make it to the alter but never would complete the vows. She unconsciously knew she was losing herself, but didn’t quite get it. Then one day a man she was falling in love with challenged her to get to know herself again and find out what she wanted out of life. He refused to marry her unless she was a whole individual person herself. Smart man. She rediscovered herself and came to him as a whole person. And at that wedding she made it through the wedding vows.

When we marry it is supposed to be two whole and healthy individuals. As two whole individuals we complement each other and bless each other so that as two good friends our personalities positively affect each other as stones tumbling together. This is how marriage helps us to grow.

”1) I do not believe that every wife should always submit to her husband in every circumstance. If what he thinks is best goes against what the Bible teaches, she should not follow him. If what he thinks is best is illegal, she should not follow him. “

If those are the only circumstances in which a woman should not obey and yield to her husband in, then she is in effect essentially a child or a slave to her husband. The question of life is how much control of our lives do we have within human community. I’m not talking about our relationship with the Lord, because essentially all of our lives are to be submitted to God, even our desires. But no other human being should have that much control in our lives if we are to become who we were created to be and mature to the fullest of our abilities.

”“complementarianism is the “right” and the “duty” of the man to be responsible before God to “lead” a woman and “grow” her because God has placed upon him the responsibility over her and for her as one who will give an account before God for her.”

Can you please give me a Scripture that shows a husband is accountable before God for his wife’s actions? To my knowledge we each are responsible for our own actions before God. Also, how do you propose to purposefully ‘grow’ your wife. This seems to be something that happens as we yield to the Holy Spirit’s directions and you are only another frail and fallible human. However, I do agree that in normal give and take within a close relationship, if both are honest with one another, there is plenty of opportunity for God to use things to bring maturity to both.

Alex, #55

Perhaps, what is missing from your home schooling example is the opportunity for the wife to learn how to make decisions. It sounds like the husband had a good handle on things, but either he didn’t share his reasons with his wife, or she simply wasn’t seeing the reasoning. There were other options. An option that would have allowed the wife to better reason things out would have been to agree for her to try out homeschooling on one of the children, perhaps the youngest. There are families that work together in their home schooling, that could have been an option. She could have taken training. They could have gotten some counseling in how to make decisions together. The only thing learned there was that the husband was right in that instance.

The scenario could have been the opposite with the husband wanting her to homeschool and she not wanting to, and her decision was right. How would that have been handled? I’ve seen it handled where the wife was forced to homeschool. This is what can happen when one person has control over another person.

“How can the husband be wrong if when using his trump card he is giving up everything for his wife”

I don’t know pinklight. The trump card just gets in the way of God speaking IMO. Doing anything in automatic mode cuts off the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, God’s answers go against everything we would have thought of.

“(and when I say grow and cultivate it doesn’t mean she is an inferior who must be turned into what the husband is. I mean she must be sacrificially loved in such a way where she can be who God made her to be. Growing and cultivating is helping her to become who she feels God desires her to be, not who the husband thinks she should be.)”

Nicely said. As well the wife should do the same for the husband. After all it is the man who was in need of an ‘other’, not the woman. It may be that the man is the one who is most in need of an other to reflect who he is and what he is doing so that he can more clearly be aware.

She is called to submit because a decision MUST be made. “

First, there are no Scriptures I know of that say a woman must submit to husbands decisions when she disagrees.

In all honesty I’ve never known of a situation where an important decision had to be made that couldn’t have been handled with prayer, compromise, and consultation. In a emergency whoever is involved may have to make the decision. In things that really only concern one spouse, the spouse most affected should have the highest priority and preferred decision. In major decisions such as moving, buying a car, etc. if the couple cannot agree, THEN NOTHING SHOULD BE DONE UNTIL THEY DO. Some of the biggest errors have been made when wife could not agree with husband and so husband pulled his trump card and did what he felt best. Your spouse is with you for a purpose. Even if you cannot see why you shouldn’t buy that car, it may be that it is your wife who has the word of the Lord on it and waiting or just not doing anything is truly the best choice.

When I said that My first response to your view of husbandly leadership is there is an assumption that the husband has superior maturity and a superior knowledge than the wife…… here’s what I meant. A husband who holds a trump card is already making an assumption that his decisions are superior to his wife’s. Anyone that who believes it is their responsibility to decide when other’s disagree has made an unconscious and unspoken statement that his knowledge is superior to theirs. In a corporate or group setting that could be true, but not always. But the one who has the superior position is supposed to be more knowledgeable at least. In a marital relationship where the wife’s disagreement will always be subject to the husband, the statement is clear. She is less responsible at the very least. Husband and wife are supposed to be two equals joined in an intimate soul union where the two become so enmeshed that they begin to operate in tandem, joined and complementing one another in all the undertake.

Thank you for the input Alex.

My first response to your view of husbandly leadership is there is an assumption that the husband has superior maturity and a superior knowledge than the wife. Overall this is simply seldom the case.

In addition, a man who looks for an inferior that he can train up to his view of maturity is going to miss what an equal woman could have ministered to him in. Such a relationship does not do as much to help the man mature. And such reliance of the woman on the man does little to bring her maturity as well.

Forgot to add just for clarity that leading sacrificially as you call it is always attuned to benefitting others and not keyed to benefit self as the world does even whilst saying they are benefitting others. God benefits those who lead according to His calling and gifting. It is His will we are to be doing and not our own.

“I’d like to see what you would say, so I’ll answer that serving sacrificially is broader in scope. Leading sacrificially is just one way of serving sacrificially.”

Craig, 182

Actually, that works for me. Anyone can lead in certain circumstances and everyone should be serving in pretty much all they do, but not everyone is called to lead in broader scopes. Broader scopes of leading would be in ministry, which anyone can be called to but not everyone is called or equipped to do so. Leading in non ministry is a matter of being equipped in some way with knowledge, skills, or experience. In Christian ministry there is also knowledge, skills, experience but in addition there is a spiritual equipping by God linked to a personal calling.

What say you to that Craig? 🙂

It’s good to remember also that authority as the world defines it is often at contrast with the kinds of authority that God gives us as Christians. The majority of the authority that God gives us is NOT positional but is part of the Holy Spirit’s gifting us for service. It is about abilities and spiritual power. Then there is the authority we have as emissaries of God which is both positional and spiritual.

When Jesus described a disciplining for those sinning it was not an individual that exercised this type of authority, but the whole body of Christ.

The bowling ball in a blanket is a very apt description of the male trump card in decision making. As well Cheryl’s point that the only time the trump card comes up is when there is disagreement. If mutual submission were in action, then compromise, prayer until agreement would be happening. Without that then the trump card is just another way for the husband to always get his way in disagreement. Interestingly also, I have never seen a valid Scriptural defense for the ‘male being final decision maker’ in marriage.

“The man is to lead in a sacrificial, loving way. A woman is also to exhibit loving, sacrificial service, but not as a leader in marriage or the church.”

Craig, hopefully I’m not repeating someone else’s question here. Just got up. 🙂

So, what is the difference between leading sacrificially and serving sacrificially? In your opinion….

Welcome Amaranth,

Your experience is not as unique as it may feel to you. There are other women who have gone through the same experience. Some have just called themselves separated from organized churches yet still loving God.

And there are more and more places on the internet to discuss these issues. This is one of the better Blogs, but there are others. Click on my name and you’ll find a forum where you can bring up your questions.

Glad to know you are here and reading. 🙂

Perhaps, the church needs an extensive study on how the Lord Jesus Christ as both Messiah and Husband treats His Body/Bride and raises her to sit beside Him.

” The sandals were the marks of a free man as slaves did not wear sandals.”

Where did you get this information? It struck me, because those who are Christian ministers are called to be slaves for God. Yet, instead the new attitude is for leaders, especially pastors, to require as many benefits as is possible. The attitude is something to the effect of, “if you want me to serve you well, then you must provide for me plentifully. I don’t work for nothing.”

Great questions Craig. And excellent answers Gengwall.

Ultimately I think leadership is about having somewhere to guide people toward. This can be positive because we are godly people, or negative when the leaders are wicked people. And unfortunately there are people who lead nowhere but to themselves. That is charisma with no meat.

As humans we are leaders to all the creatures of the earth. This type of leadership involves protection and direction. As Christians we are to take what we learn of God and share it with those who need to learn. We fill the Greek meaning of standing before and stepping before. We direct others toward God. That is the leadership that is Biblical.

I suspect the definitions get blurred when the strong help the weaker. It feels like leadership. I wouldn’t say that it actually is though. But strength should always be used to assist those who lack it. Then we have the worldly view that the stronger should rule over the weaker. Mix that in and men who are generally stronger than women think that men should always rule over the weaker women. But women know better and are not assisted by such. Yet women still can be assisted and desire to be assisted by the strengths of men. Perhaps, the problem is then not recognizing that women have qualities, insights, ways of doing and viewing life that men need assistance with from women. Strength and physical power are not really the most important aspects of life nor the important aspects of leadership.

We must go back to the qualities of leadership being directing, pointing, assisting people toward doing what is wisdom, righteous and godly. Anyone can be used of God to do that.

“In regard to parents having authority over children, I do not want to disagree with others, but I must confess I do not see myself having authority over my children. I do see two things at work though.

Dave, 120

Your two things are very well said and acceptable. Scripture does not say specifically that parents are in authority over their children, I don’t think. And the implication of what is said is along the lines of reasoning that you put forth. Thus, I concede that it is better to use the wording of Scripture preferably.

” If a husband and a wife disagree on an issue and they cannot resolve the matter and the husband takes out his “male trump card” to exercise his authority to make the final decision, what are the chances that he will use his “male trump card” to decide her way? If you are really honest with yourself, you would have to admit that the answer is zero chance. A trump card that is pulled out will always favor the male and will never sacrifice his own desires.”

EXCELLENT observation. If the husband chooses to yield to his wife’s view or make a compromise there is no need to exercise authority over and call the shots. It is only when the man chooses to not discuss further or pray until they are in agreement, that he takes things into his own hands.

“A parent can exercise authority humbly, for the good of the child, and at great sacrificial cost to the parent.”

Craig,
Yes, a parent must exercise authority for a child until the child is able to make responsible decisions for themselves. That is the whole point about being a parent, training a child in righteous ways of behavior. That is the purpose of our authority over them.

“So why are we warned about not lording it over- this would seem irrelevant if authority was not an expectation for church leaders. We are warned because of the corrupting nature of authority, not to show it doesn’t exist.”

Mark,
I find it rather odd that you read Jesus words this way.

“But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Note that it is BOTH lording over and exercising authority over that Jesus says IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU. INSTEAD we are to take the position of a servant and a slave, serving God’s people as God leads. Jesus said He did not come to be served. This applies to us also. We should not think that anything that we do as God’s servant (we are ALL to be God’s servants) should end up that we are served as we desire. We are to serve the people of God as they need regardless of what our calling is, but especially if we have callings of leading ministries.

It would be beneficial if we could sort through this when you next have some time.

Happy Father’s Day, in the meantime. 🙂

…. Ephe. says Christ is kephale huper EVERYthing FOR the church, that can be referring to God’s creatorship over all creation in all dimensions….

Cool!

In another definition for huper, it said it can also mean existing in other spatial dimensions. I thought that was interesting.