pinklight

“Ultimately these things still fall under the spritual head of a man i.e pastor/elder adn i think that is the whole point. Women are still able to exercise their giftings, but I believe Paul restricts them where i have already said.”

What is “the spritual head of a man” category? How do pastors and elders fall under this category? And how does a restriction on women teaching in church fall under this category??

Pastors and elders are not the kephale of anyone and you would have to provide scriptural support for the idea that they a kephale. Are you saying that they are the “head” of their church and this is why a woman cannot be a pastor or teach in church?

How many offices are there open for pastors, elders and teachers in the church that can be filled at any one time? ;P

Teacher must be an office too since women aren’t allowed to teach in “church”. It’s the offices that are reserved for men. I get it.

Only the 12 Apostles are the closest things we come to for “offices”.

Can a pastor (a gift given by Christ to the church, Eph 4) be an elder? Ofcourse, l if one desires and meets certain character qualifications. So all those who desire to be an elder and meet the character qualifications can just assume office? How many offices are there open for pastors, teachers etc that can be filled at any one time?

“The term ‘Pastor’ is an office of the NT”

If it is an office then when each pastor dies they must be replaced or the office is left empty intell the it is filled. Pastor is a gift, along with Apostles, teachers etc., and they are gifts to the church as Eph 4 says. These people are gifts to the church. This is what Eph 4 says and since the people themselves are gifts how can what Christ gives be Offices? So Christ has people in line to fill the offices once they are opened back up? Christ gives offices or gifts to his church in Eph 4?

“The point is, in both situations the husband/elders/leaders put others first and dont lord it over others/wives.”

Do you mean that by husbands and leaders/pastors/elders putting others first that people become more like christ, have the best chance to, or just mainly? Putting others first is a principle for all and not just for husbands or leader/pastor/elder and so I’m wondering what the principle has to do with husbands and leaders/pastors/elders making people become more like Christ? It is Christ like to put other first, and so is this the main responsibility of just leaders or all christians? What about putting others first has to do solely with husbands leaders/pastors/elders?

“I think you are trying to push what i was saying to mean something else. Of course i don’t think we do things in our own ‘power’. Maybe my australian terminology is interfering in this concept. The point is, in both situations the husband/elders/leaders put others first and dont lord it over others/wives.”

I understand your main point, Mark. But by what means then do husbands and pastors have to make wives and sheep more like Christ? What are you saying? If it’s not in your own power then what is it? And what Scripture do you get this idea (whatever it is) from? How does any person become more like Christ? What are you saying, if it’s not one’s “own” power? Do people only become more like Christ through husbands and pastors? Or do they mainly become more like Christ through husbands and pastors or is their best chance to become more like Christ through husbands and pastors?

What power did Adam have that Eve did not have?

;P

Sorry for the serial posts lol!

Two more question, Mark (at least for now) ;P

Where is it written in Scripture that husbands and pastors have “power” that the rest of the members of the body do not have? Or what kind of personal (human) power do the Scriptures say they have that the rest of humanity does not?

What KIND of power does a husband or pastor have that anyone of us here do not have?

What’s with the use of the word “power” to begin with? Why are you using this word regarding husbands and pastors? Husbands and pastors have power? Well, what kind of power do they have?

“That said there number 1 priority should be to humble themselves and do everything in THEIR power to make their ‘church’ as much like Christ as possible.”

I overlooked…it also says “THEIR” church. Is this a pattern of thinking for you, Mark or have you just chosen the wrong words to convey your beliefs? Or am I really to take you as meaning that Pastor’s have churches and husbands are to use their own personal power to make their wives like our example who is Christ, a servant.

I capitalized one of your words Mark to make a point.

“That said there number 1 priority should be to humble themselves and do everything in THEIR power to make their ‘church’ as much like Christ as possible.”

There’s the idea of personal (rather than a work or the Spirit’s) power again. What is it about a person’s OWN power that can make anyone more like Christ??

Thanks for your response Mark 🙂

“I dont think we should confuse teaching between spouses and the teaching roles involved in churches.”

On what basis at creation, since your view is about “roles” established from creation, is a woman prohibited from teaching in church? Let me put it another way, What in Genesis tells us that women cannot teach in church? Or how about, What “role” established at creation prohibits a woman from teaching in church?

“Headship isnt about domination, Christ revealed it is about love and submission and doing everything in my power to make my wife more like Him.”

Where in the Scriptures did Christ reveal that “headship” (rather than “kephale” translated “head”) is about a husband doing everything in his own (!) power to make his wife more like Christ – be a servant?

I’m excited and waiting for the new audio clip! I love the things I’ve learned in the past, in Genesis regarding Eve!! 🙂

And since compism is a doctrine of subordination then it needs a new and more precise name.

What I’m saying is that any person who accepts compism whether they know it or not is supporting a doctrine of subordination. I never saw this before. If submission belongs to a woman in a way that it does not belong to a man, then she is subordinate.

I agree but since “subordinate” is permanent and unchanging, the it is the more precise term. And if submission is a permanent role of then woman, then she’s a subordinate.

I’m starting to get a clearer picture of complementarianism. If submission is the woman’s permanent unchanging role, then compism offically teaches subordination. I don’t know of any comp who would say that submission doesn’t belong to the woman. Without it, there is no complementarianism anyway. Anyone know of a comp view that doesn’t assign submission to the woman permanently?

Senior pastor (the one that women are exempt from because the pastor teaches) is that a creation role too?

“Is it possible to challenge his position by saying that it isn’t a “role” prohibition but a “place” prohibition?”

Yes, it would be a “place” prohibition based on creation order (not role because to be created is not a role) and one’s treachery.

So women should not teach because Adam was a traitor?

Paul said “for Adam was created first..AND Adam was not deceived…” We can’t leave out any words, including a conjunction connective word.

“and no amount of reading into the text even by who was created first is good enough as a proof.”

I wonder why it seems to stop there in regard to “roles” and doesn’t include Adam not being deceived making the situation about creation AND the fall. If “roles” can be determined by one then why not the other? So we’re talking about creation and fallen “roles”. Now that makes sense since fallen roles oppose creation roles??

“I would take that as part and parcle of Adam’s failure to guard the garden, and since said failure is listed along with eating the apple, I would say it constitutes part of Adam’s sin.”

Did you say “apple” gengwall?? ;P

“I would take that as part and parcle of Adam’s failure to guard the garden, and since said failure is listed along with eating the apple, I would say it constitutes part of Adam’s sin.”

Adam’s failure to guard the garden was a part of him not being deceived. He was equipped to guard the garden, he got to name the animals, probably he even understood the nature of the serpent since he named the serpent.

“Could we ALL stop using the word “subordinate” if indeed “submit” is what is meant?”

I agree but since “subordinate” is permanent and unchanging, the it is the more precise term. And if submission is a permanent role of then woman, then she’s a subordinate.

If women can teach men (Eve could teach Adam since they weren’t in church) then how could women not teaching in church be based on a creation ordinance or “role”?

Mark, so since you believe that women can teach men, then Eve could teach Adam, as long as they weren’t in church?

“I would like to state my position on woman ‘teaching’ because there is ovbiously alot of different ideas about this out there. Do i think a woman can be gifted to teach…yes. Do i think God doesn’t want women to teach men…no.”

How is the leap made from Eve to women not teaching in church?

I meant, Now why couldn’t I say it simple like that?