Cheryl

Light,
I wasn’t told yet what time it will air. The thought was that it would be on the weekend either sometime before or after Matt’s show. When they finalize the time, I am supposed to get an email back so I will post it on this blog when I know. I do not think that they will take Matt’s time but they are providing me with my own free time. I hope they advertise so that everyone knows about it. Perhaps someone who posts on Matt’s blog can let people know that there is going to be a rebuttal in the form of the airing of the DVD set. I do not think that Matt knows about this yet so he should be (pleasantly??) surprised. I haven’t told him.

Thanks for asking!

Lin,

We all have the anointing (charisma in Greek) but we are not God’s anointed (kristos in Greek). The word “Christ” is kristos which means the anointed. This is why some aberrant groups say that we are “little gods” and they claim that they are the ones who are special – God’s anointed. There is one Christ and the rest of us are brothers in the body of Christ. No one is “the anointed” one but Christ alone.

1 John 2:20 says that we all have the anointing (charisma)

Mat 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ (kristos or anointed),’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.

No one in the New Testament was called “God’s anointed” one except for Christ. There is no longer a hierarchy either in gender or in position for we are all to be brothers.

Mat 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

In my opinion anyone who would let someone call them “God’s anointed” has a serious problem with pride and most likely a serious issue with wanting authority over the brothers.

Paula,

You said:

“I believe it was in Groothuis’ book Good News for Women that she point out that a priest does not represent God to man, but man to God; prophets represent God to man. So the husband as a priest wouldn’t symbolize his being over his wife, but as her equal under God.”

I agree here except for the fact that they say that the husband is the Priest AND the Prophet AND the King. My goodness, if the man is the Priest and Prophet and King in the home, what is he in the church? No wonder so many are jostling for a position of power.

But Jesus tells us that we are not to be in power, but in servanthood. We are all on an equal footing as brothers in Christ and that is the way that Christ mean it to be.

Charis,

Going back to your comment in #15 you said:

” Frankly, I feel quite confident that God wants me to stand up to the sin in a way which is quite confrontational and unpleasant for my husband. I believe that my ostensibly “respectful” and “submissive” behavior tiptoeing around his “fragile male ego” for 22 years at the expense of the vulnerable tender hearts and spirits of our children was destructive and sinful on my part. (This enabling behavior on my part was reinforced by just such teaching as your post here highlights. I thought I was being “biblical”.)

So which is it? Is it confront sin and attempt to hold him accountable?
Or is is “forgive” “love covers a multitude of sins” and “blessed is she who overlooks an offense”?”

I think it is difficult to speak of a course of action without specifics. I like to think about how I would like to be confronted and let that be a guide. But what if the action is a serious sin? You definitely have to hold a person accountable. But ultimately you are only in control of yourself.

One thing that I have found since I followed God’s way for *my* life is that “respectful” and “submissive” and “forgiving” are all places of power under control. When I know that I have a choice and I am not forced into a position, then I am happy and contented. My husband is also happy and contented and so it has worked very well for us. In fact my husband has done a lot of submitting to my gifts and my abilities as he considers himself the one called to come alongside me in ministry.

Just this morning I asked my husband if he would be willing to give his testimony of his journey from being a generational complementarian to the place where we are at now. He is considering it. He doesn’t much like email or writing, but if it helps someone, he may force himself to write out his own story. 🙂

Charis,

I haven’t said that these men are heretics. I don’t get into personalities but work on issues only. And, my friend, please do know that they are not God’s anointed. No one but Jesus is God’s anointed. This is a tactic that many use as a “thought-stopping” technique. It doesn’t work with me because I know that we are to test all things. We cannot test people. People are to test themselves. 2 Cor. 13:5 says to test yourself to see if you are in the truth. What we are to test is doctrine not people.

I sincerely hope that helps. It is not my intention to attack. If you saw my DVD or saw the introduction to my DVD you will see that I do not believe in attacking people but exposing faulty doctrine. I want people to do the same for me. I ask people to correct me when I am wrong, but I ask them to not call me names or attack me personally.

Now that we are back on track, anyone have thoughts on the priest issue?

I think we are really getting off topic here and I think it might be good to move this discussion somewhere else. I just don’t know where that somewhere else would be right now. I will have to think about it.

Anyways I think that there is a missing of the meeting of the minds. Charis, in reading your comments from other posts, I understand that you are able to read books and material and pick up things that help you and your situation even if the things you pick up are not exactly what is intended by the author. That isn’t a bad thing. Not if it is in self-help books. But when it comes to biblical doctrine and spiritual matters we really do have to know what the author means so that we can test it by scripture. If we only test what we would like them to mean then it isn’t a real genuine test.

Paula has brought out that contemplative meditation is praying using a mantra (a word or phrase that is repeated over and over) and a silencing of the mind (emptying of the mind) by repeating the mantra. That isn’t a judgment. That is a definition. Now if that definition is wrong, and the authors that you read mean something different then that, you need to show what they actually mean by their actual words.

The next thing that one needs to do is test things by scripture and not by a church or a study group or your own children. All of these things can be wrong because they are not our standard for the test. Last night I gave a scripture off the top of my head in answer to a question my son had and I gave the right scripture but I told him that it was said before the resurrection instead of after the resurrection. It was the wrong timing of that scripture because I went by my memory instead of taking time to read the scripture. I was just so busy that I didn’t take that time. So it turns out I was wrong. This morning I got an email from my son telling me that he had used what I said but then had to correct it because the time line was wrong. I felt bad, but that just goes to show you that I am just human like all of us. I make mistakes. I am not the test for truth and my son has just learned that once again. The scripture is the only test of truth for spiritual matters. Everything else is fallable.

I have heard the argument before that something cannot be wrong because my Pastor teaches it or my good friend believes it or because I read a book that teaches it. This is very, very dangerous and many people have gone to hell trusting in other people’s word and other people’s judgment instead of testing everything by God’s word. I know many sincere people who are in the cults right now because they trusted an neighbour, a friend, an elder, etc.

A few years ago I had a lady put her finger in my face and tell me who do I think I am? What right do I have to tell her that her son is wrong for teaching that it is okay to talk to the dead? If her son says it is okay, it is okay. After all he got one of the church “fathers” to read his book and the church “father” didn’t have a problem. If it is wrong, then why didn’t these other men see that it is wrong? My answer to her is that I trust the bible and the bible says that we are not allowed to speak to the dead. When it is my time to be judged, God will not ask my why I didn’t believe the pastor or the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the yogi down the street. He will ask me what I did with his word? If I cannot prove something by God’s word, then it doesn’t matter who says something contrary to that.

Anyway perhaps we should email one another and join in the discussion that way. Although these are very important things, I just don’t want to distract from such an important topic as women in ministry.

Charis, consider yourself cared for. I do not consider you a heretic. I hardly every use that word myself. I think that it has to be used very carefully. Heretics are to be thrown out of the church. False teachers are to be corrected and taught the truth. Heretics are deliberate deceivers who are not capable of being taught the truth. This was my point in 1 Timothy 1. Paul wanted those who were deceived to know the truth. The ones who were deliberately distorting the resurrection, Paul gave them over to Satan to be “taught” not to blaspheme. This is the reason that we know that “a woman” in 1 Timothy 2 was not a deliberate heretic. Paul said that she was to learn. The fact is that you cannot teach a heretic and they simply will not learn. So please consider things that you have heard here to be words of wisdom not words of condemnation.

I dearly love those in the body of Christ who have been mislead especially about the women’s issue. Is the husband the “priest” of the home? Scripture does not tell us this and this would contradict scripture since all believers are in this kingdom of priests. There is no hierarchy in the priesthood of the believer so there can be no priest over another priest.

pinklight,
😉 Yes!

Pinklight,

Go here http://www.calvarychapellangley.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=78
and listen to the audio files. They will help you to know why contemplative meditation is and why it is dangerous and how to recognize error.

Charis,
No you are not going to be disowned here. It is my desire that this blog will always be a loving community. One way to show love and community is to show acceptance. Another important way to show love and community is to educate and to warn of danger.

Okay I feel a long one coming on here. Be prepared 🙂

Think about it this way…picture Adam and Eve in the garden and the serpent is talking to Eve. Adam is thinking to himself that the serpent is lying because he knows for sure that they cannot become like God. But then he thinks that he should be quiet. After all, he reasons within himself, maybe there is a right way for Eve and a right way for me. Who are I to try to correct the serpent or who am I to inform Eve about the lie? Isn’t that an unloving thing to do?

I guess there are two things going on here. This is how I see it – if I am wrong, would I want to know it? During the 16 years that I was running the support group for former Jehovah’s Witnesses, I would often ask them this same question, especially when we had a new person join our group. The answer that we all agreed on, is that if I am a truth loving person I would want to know if I was wrong or if I was being deceived. I would want to know even if it hurts me.

The next question I would ask them, is how would you know if you are deceived? This always brought a good discussion and the answer was always the same. If one was truly deceived they would not know it. One would need the help of others or the help of something that was a standard that one trusted that revealed the deception in order to come out of being deceived. I have had the privilege of counseling many deceived people from various cults and there are common signs of deception no matter what group or weird belief they came from. They always believed they had the truth and they were all very sensitive to have their group or doctrine questioned. It would produce anger or defensiveness in them. I would have to help them to understand that if they had the truth, it was not a fearful to have it tested. Truth will always stand up to the test. It is only error that fears the test.

So the question then becomes, who is the one to judge the truth? Aren’t we all susceptible to deception and is it really important what we believe as long as we are sincere? The Bible gives one of the serious signs of the last days and that is deception and the falling away from the faith. We need to be on our guard so that none of us is deceived and falls away from the faith that is “once delivered” to the saints.

So my “bottom line” is and always has been that the only safe way to make sure that we are not deceived is to “test everything and hold fast to what is good”. It is the bible that will keep us safe from deception and anyone, any church, any theology, any technique, anything at all that contradicts God’s word is to be rejected.

So if a well-loved pastor tells me that it is okay to talk to the dead because the dead will help us get closer to God, I will not follow that pastor but will reject what he says because it contradicts God’s word. If a man who has a doctorate degree tells me that Jesus is not equal with the Father in the Trinity and has never been equal with the Father, I test that by God’s word and I reject it even if the man is a noteworthy man who has written many books and who has much more education than I have. Education and personality and good feelings are not a test for truth. Only God’s word is a trustworthy test for truth.

How about if I “feel” right about being a woman in ministry? Feelings can deceive me. Everything must be tested. I did not come to the conclusions I have about women’s freedom to serve in the body of Christ because it felt right. I was willing to give up everything and to live my life as a doormat if that is the only thing that God allows women to do. I would have been very unhappy and demoralized to not be able to use my gifts for the common good of the body of Christ, but God’s word is more important than my feelings. I searched and searched and looked every scripture up carefully. I tested the traditions about women by God’s word and the traditions were found wanting. God’s word taken in context affirms women in ministry.

But even with a strong biblical foundation, I have always been willing to look at the opposing side. I just don’t get it when people are willing to condemn something without even investigating. My motto as an apologist is that if you have the truth, the truth will stand against error. Only error runs away and hides. That is why I have never been afraid to read opposing literature of any sort. I have read countless books from the cults. I have also read everything I could get my hands on from the complementarian camp regarding women in ministry. It is also an important part of my thinking that if what I have is true and if it is grounded in scripture than I need not fear the challenges that come from the opposition. After all, if I am wrong in any point, I want to know where I am wrong. Can it harm me to be proven wrong? It might hurt my ego, but I love truth more than I love my ego. If I test everything and am affirmed in what I believe by the test of God’s word, then I have become strong since my faith is a tested faith.

Every time someone wanted to share their “truth” with me I have been willing to test my faith against their “truth”. I have taken the time to read literature from the mystics and those who have practiced contemplative meditation or centering prayer and as a unbiased observer I have noted some troubling similarities. For example I read several books from Catholic mystics that my Catholic friend who was trying to convert me to catholicism gave me. Again, if what I have is true, then my faith will stand. If what I have is in error, I stand to be corrected.

The books I read from these catholic mystics were very bizarre. They regularly practiced contemplative meditation and they started to have mystical happenings. Somethings were bizarre, others were scary. There were visions and manifestations of the dead as they progressed in their mysticism. More and more they progressed and by the time they died, they appeared to be suffering from mental illness or some kind of strong delusions. These types of spiritual experiences apparently are not uncommon and so people like Richard Foster finding themselves needing to warn people that those who practice contemplative mediation need to pray for protection from evil spirits before they practice this kind of meditation. This put the red flags up for me.

So what does the scripture say about these practices? The bible says much about meditation but it is always meditating on God’s word or God’s principles or God himself. When I read about contemplative meditation, the instruction is not to fill one’s mind with the things of God but to empty one’s mind. One says a mantra which is a word or phrase that is said over and over and over again until one comes into a state of nothingness or an emptied mind. But scripture does not tell us to empty our mind but to fill it with thoughts of God’s word. Scripture does not tell us to do repetitious prayer as the world does, but we are to pray with intent.

Mat 6:7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
Mat 6:8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
Mat 6:9 “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father who is in heaven…”

What I would recommend you do, Charis, is to be open enough to see the other side. If what you have is from God, then truth will prevail. If what you have is a form of mysticism that God has not given but is a doorway into another spiritual realm, then it is to your benefit to know that. If what you have is truth, you will be a stronger person for knowing the objections to the “truth”. That is the mindset that has helped me the very most. I have never feared to check anything out because I dearly value and love truth. If I am wrong I WANT to know I am wrong and why I am wrong.

I also value those who speak with love. Although I love truth, it is much easier to hear that truth from someone who comes across as caring and kind. One person who is loving and kind regarding contemplative meditation is Ray Yungen. I would recommend that you listen to some of his audio files. Go to http://www.calvarychapellangley.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=78
and listen to “New Age Spirituality in the Church”. There are also another two more audio files on this page that are worth listening to from Ray. Roger Oakland is good too, but listen to Ray first. Ask God to help you to know the truth and then check out the scriptures that Ray gives. Ray is one of the kindest apologists that I have heard and I think you will find the material helpful.

Ray also has a book called “A Time of Departing”. I highly recommend it. You can get it from our web site at http://www.mmoutreach.org/order_macgregor_books.htm Ray has written a very carefully documented book on this subject. It is important to know all the facts because these facts can open our eyes to the truth. If what you have is God’s truth, what others say against your faith will not hurt you – it will make you stronger. The things they say will either correct you or help you to know what the opposition is saying so that you can properly refute the opposition. If you cannot afford the book, some good information is found here http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/nvweb/featureart/contprayer.html

So are you loved and cared for here on my blog whether you are willing to check out the facts or not? Absolutely! I believe you are my sister in Christ. I just want you to know that I am not an Adam. I will speak up when I see things that clearly contradict God’s word because warning someone is showing them love. This is what I would want others to do for me if I was in danger in any way of following something that had the potential of harm for me underneath the surface of what seemed like calm waters. Be careful. Watch out. Don’t trust your feelings. Test everything and what passes the bible test hold on to with a clear conscience.

Under Much Grace,
The DVD should be out by the fall of 2008. It may be out a lot sooner than that, but it all depends on how long the researching and writing process will take. It will probably be two solid months of editing plus the shooting on top of that, then there is the marketing work (cover, etc) and mass duplicating. So around September, possibly sooner.

I have been in dialog with Bruce Ware for my research and the issue of subordinationism will be a good part of the DVD – possibly as much as half of it. We will be dealing with the subordination in the Trinity as it is and not referencing the women’s issue although one will be able to see the connection quick easily. After all as I discussed with Mr. Ware – that if women are subordinated to men this doesn’t mean that Jesus is eternally subordinated to the Father. In other words, Jesus can be completely equal with the Father in every way and this doesn’t mean that women cannot also be subordinated to men. Each issue should be dealt with separately and it is such a shame that subordinationists cannot seem to leave the two as separate. I am also dialoging with a complementarian who has challenged me to prove to him from the scriptures alone that Jesus is not subordinated to the Father. I have sent him my research so far and he has not been able to refute it so I think we have another winner! I will let everyone here know when the DVD is completed and I believe that it will be an important apologetic response to the subordinationists in our midst.

David,

“Cheryl, I think at some point you just shake the dust off your feet and just move on. “

Great words of wisdom….but until that point I have a need to be biblical and to confront my brother’s sin against me. So here is where we are at…I have the documented evidence that on Matt’s Dec 12, 2007 radio show that he slandered me by accusing me of a specific heresy which is unfounded and untrue. I also have the documented evidence from our second debate that he was told at that time that I didn’t believe what he was trying to accuse me of.

My Pastor has listened to all the audio tapes and he wrote a letter to Matt to confirm that Matt has misrepresented my beliefs and this is a slander that needs to be repented of.

In the meantime God has worked this out for good. What Matt meant for evil, God meant for good, praise the name of the Lord Jesus! Yesterday I was contacted by the radio station that hosts Matt’s radio program. Here in Canada there is a requirement that if you slander someone publicly they get equal time to present their case and rebut the slander. Matt has been speaking against me publicly since September when we had our radio debate. So here is what the radio station has agreed to do – they are giving me free air time for 4 consecutive weeks in February where they are going to play the audio of my “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” DVDs. The DVDs are 3.5 hours of teaching verse by verse on all the hard passages of scripture on the women’s issue. So while Matt is desperately trying to stop women in ministry, his very actions have brought about a public playing of the DVDs that he considers “dangerous” to the church. Matt hates my DVDs so much that he had all reference to the DVDs removed from the audio that he posted on his web site from the second debate I had with him in September. But God is good! He knows how to frustrate the plans of those who try to “suppress the truth in unrighteousness”.

So for those of you who don’t have a copy of my DVD, you will be able to hear it on the “My family radio” station 790 KSPD Boise Idaho. http://www.myfamilyradio.com/cms/index.php I will let you know the exact times and day when I get that information.

Hi David,
I am doing a Matthew 18 work with Matt. On the audio show that you linked to above Matt is not responding well to correction. I have the audio files from December where Matt bore false witness against me on his radio program. My Pastor emailed Matt today as a witness to the false testimony and calling Matt to publicly repent of what he said, and all that Matt did on today’s Faith and Reason show (incidentally it is the audio link that you gave above), was continue to berate me as a heretic and claim that he has not slandered me. I had hoped that he would be humble enough to be willing to be corrected but as you can hear, he is not. He is just so angry with women bible teachers who teach the bible with authority and I appear to be his main target for his anger and frustration. The next step will be bringing in more witnesses who can call him to account. I am not sure yet who it is that he might respect. Any thoughts? I have all the audio clips to prove his false testimony about me and I have sent them to Matt too so he knows why he is being called to account. I am hoping that Matt will be willing to repent publicly in the same forum that he slandered my good name.

Pastor Darlene,
Thank you for affirming the hurtful “fruit” of this doctrine by your own experience with those who have been the victims of this teaching. I have heard many horror stories myself and it makes me cringe when I hear how much control is willingly given by those who have been convinced that this is God’s way.

My dear, Pastor Paul, no problem with me whatsoever…I answer to almost anything 🙂

Pastor Paul,
I like your wife! Also your explanation of the cultic control is priceless! Thank you.

Sue,
I have never thought of it that way….that complementarian men get two votes. That sounds like one of those things that makes you go hmmmmmmmmmmm……..

Well, I heard it in audio and now I see it in print and now I am double shocked. What an absolute shame! I guess that since Burk has “carefully” taken away Christ’s equality with the Father, we can now go back to the inferiority of women and the “equal yet different” will no longer be necessary. After all if Christ is no longer equal with the Father then women certainly will fall prey to the same logic. Was that Denny Burk’s newest book to be written on the theme of “unequal and oh so different”? Maybe the rumor is true that woman was not created from the side of man but from another piece of dirt that just looked like a rib.

The biggest shame is that these men in their deep desire to downgrade women’s equality with men have sided with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and made Jesus out to be “a god” and not truly equal with the Father at all.

Greg,

Let’s hope that this type of marriage advice will not become common so that we go back to the dark ages for women as you described. I do shudder to think how some would take this advice if they are prone to an abusive personality. There may be more than a little unhappiness for these women behind closed doors.

Lin,

Thank you for your very kind words! You are right – I make a big deal about the importance of sound doctrine. There is a cost to pay for this, but to me it is worth it. My DVD set has been given to several liberal “scholars” who are very much in favor of women in ministry. They should love the DVDs because they present the egalitarian message in a very visual way and the message is not combative but gentle. However these “scholars” do not appear to like the way I handled the issue. I have made a strong stand that the bible is completely inspired and we cannot ignore scripture just because we don’t like what it says. This apparently is offensive to some.

I worked very hard to understand the hard passages of scripture but I did not waver from keeping my understanding in tune with the inspired context as well as the inspired words and the inspired grammar. My understanding has come because I read the scriptures to truly understand what they are saying so that they can speak without contradiction. I do not come to the scriptures with a preconceived conclusion that I want to force on the texts themselves. Along the way I rejected many egalitarian arguments because they did not fit the context or they ignored some of the inspired words that didn’t fit their theory. It was my sincere belief (and it still is) that one can know they have the correct interpretation when there is nothing in the passage or in the rest of scripture that contradicts your interpretation. Yet even with this strong view of scripture I am still being told that I am inserting political correctness into the text. This is a shut-down statement and when I ask them to show me how I am doing this, there is no answer.

But the message is getting through and I give God the glory! Recently I received an email from a Pastor who said that he had never before heard an interpretation that didn’t have contradictions until he viewed the DVDs. He bought another 6 DVD sets as gifts for 6 of his fellow Pastors because he appreciated them so much. He also is giving credit to the Holy Spirit for bringing these passages to light and I am so happy to hear that. That is exactly where the praise should go and is the fruit that I am looking for.

I also know what you mean about the seeker churches that go overboard to please the sinner. When one caters to one who is unregenerate and who wants to have his/her ears tickled, the meat of the word will never be preached. The gospel will also not be preached in a way that will make it fruitful. My son was asked to leave a church where the gospel was not being preached because it was considered offensive. For over a year he worked with the Pastor to try to get him to preach the gospel and not just invite people to pray a prayer to have a “party in their heart”. The mature ones are asked to leave the church if they do not support a watered-down gospel. It is very sad.

Hi Lin,

No, Lepine doesn’t prescribe a “priest” for the man, because the man doesn’t need a priest for him. The woman is apparently the only needy one and he is there to “fill” her need for a priest. This is just so unbiblical and I am afraid that men with their heads filled with this new “job” description will not even understand how hurtful and unloving it is to have your own in-house sin detector. If the wife protests his treatment, that won’t help because Lepine says, “…he needs to obey God’s call regardless of how his wife will respond.” I see a recipe for a disastrous and unhappy marriage.

It also seems to me that Lepine should know better just from his own words. He says “Most books I’ve read on how to have a happy marriage don’t suggest that one of the keys is confronting sin in your mate.” There is a reason why most books don’t suggest this confrontation method. It is because it doesn’t work and it only sets a division and a hostility between husband and wife. There doesn’t appear to be any equality for the woman in a “role” that gives her the ability to confront her husband’s sin. While I don’t recommend this type of confrontation either, it comes across as the man is on a high pedestal and he gets to choose how he lays down the law. In fact Lepine says “He is to know and apply the law of God in the home.” If that doesn’t ring some warning bells in our heads regarding what the husband can do regarding his wife’s “sin”, then we may be very comfortable in Muslim countries where the husband has the right to discipline his wife in anyway he chooses without consequence. If he kills her for disobeying him or for ruining a dinner, then she deserves it. It really does make me shudder how far we have gone away from God’s original intent of a one-flesh union and towards the world’s way where the man is the true master and king of his home.

seasongrace,

Thanks for your 2 cents worth!

Cheryl

I am thinking of doing another post on the issue of “King”. I didn’t comment on that part of the chapter in this post as it was already a long post. My work on our new DVD series on the Trinity is taking most of my time, but I may take the time later to post on what this attitude does to the body of Christ when we make the man the “King”. Other than that I may only be posting every week or two as my nose is fully into the Trinity script.

One other thing….if a husband sees his wife in sin, the best thing that he can do for her is to pray for her and to live an example for her of godliness. I think the same thing goes for women. When I stopped trying to change my husband and just concentrated on being the woman that God meant for me to be, it helped me a lot. I remember once being very angry with my husband and going into the bathroom to shut off myself from him and express my anger. I heard the voice of the Lord tell me that I needed to go to him and say I was sorry. I knew that I was to blame partway, but it was his own sin and his own faults and started it. I remember stamping my foot in anger at God and asking him why he always was telling me that I needed to change and I needed to apologize and why he wasn’t doing anything with my husband to correct him. I heard the Lord as clear as a bell. He said that it was none of my business what he was doing with my husband. It was only my business what he was doing with me. That changed everything for me and I stopped trying to change him. For years and years I was under the hand of the Lord and was being molded and changed. Now the things have changed and the last number of years the Lord has been dealing with my husband for change and I seem to be getting off scott-free. What I have learned is that we belong to the Lord Jesus and it is in his timing and in his way that we will change. Yes, we confront sin when the person is sinning against us, but sometimes the bad behavior is best left alone to only the Lord to deal with and when we walk in forgiveness, it seems to be the catalyst that God uses to start the change in the other person.

Hey Charis,
Yes, if a wife sins against her husband, this sin should be brought to her attention and vice versa. However this is not what CBMW and Mr. Lepine means. The sin that they are talking about is her sin. Any sin. Her sin, her faults and her failures are to be brought to her attention. This is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit in our lives and when we usurp the Holy Spirit’s position of shedding light on our failures and our sin then we can expect conflict since the man (or the woman) is a sinner themselves. Jesus said that we are to take the log out of our own eye before we attempt to take the speck out of our brother’s (wife’s) eye.

When our brother sins against us, this is a sin that needs to be dealt with, but our own personal sins are something that needs to be dealt with by the Holy Spirit. God certainly has not given the husband to be the priest who exposes sin in our life.

Seasonedgrace,

As far as ordination, I do believe that it is good to have a body confirm the maturity that they see in us but it isn’t necessary. A pastor is a pastor not because he/she has been ordained but because she/he has been gifted as pastor to the church (Eph 4:11). When the disciples tried to ordain the 12th apostle after Judas died, they fell short. Since an apostle is a gift to the church (Eph 4:11), it cannot be a matter of man’s vote. Paul makes it clear that he is the chosen apostle, chosen by Jesus Christ and not by man’s ordination.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

Seasonedgrace,

Yes, there is certainly a lot that people use to minimalize others. The issue for me has always been “What does the scripture say”. When I am charged with being a “feminist” (a word that is used to identify one with the world) and when I am charged with getting my ideas from worldly feminists (even though I have never read any books from these worldly feminists), when my ideas have come from what is written in scripture, all I can say is that there is a lot of presupposition out there in people and it appears to be easier to attack than to actually listen to a person’s well thought out scriptural reasoning.

Tiffany,

The church is certainly to be in an active communication with the husband of the church. Just as Jesus as husband and head is to be in active communication with us. We are to grow up into the head so that we can be one and work together as one body.

However there are some things that Jesus is to us that does not fall under the category of “head” of the body but rather under the category of our “Master” and our “God”. As Jesus is our God, we are to obey him completely. We worship him and obey his commands as he is our God. He is also our High Priest and the Mediator between God and ourselves. He also gave himself as a payment for our sin. There are many things that Jesus is that a husband is not. We need to be able to separate what is the “head” duties to draw the body together and nourish the body and what is his “God” rights that demand service, worship and obedience. God does not replace the unique authority of Jesus as God in our lives as women, with a secondary level of godship.

I do want to express my love for Jesus here as I believe that it is appropriate. I have given him my whole heart, my soul, my life and my complete trust. He is completely trustworthy and I serve and worship him as my Lord, my Savior and my God. I give him honor for the gifts that he has given me and I praise him that he allows me to serve him by serving the body of Christ. My desire is to bring Jesus honor and glory as much as I can by doing the work that he has called me to do but always acknowledging that the power, the strength and the endurance is not my own but it belongs to my Lord. Praise the Lord Jesus!

Hi Tiffany,

I have heard many times preached from the pulpit that every matter requires two or three witnesses to be established. In fact my own pastor just preached this exact same thing just a few weeks ago on a different matter. He quoted the exact same scriptures that I am going to quote to you and he confirmed that every matter and every law must have two or three witnesses.

This precedent is set in the Old Testament:

Deu 13:14 then you shall investigate and search out and inquire thoroughly. If it is true and the matter established that this abomination has been done among you,

How is a “matter established”? A matter is established by two or three witnesses. The Old Testament lists many places that two or three witnesses are necessary. Numbers 35:30, Deut 17:6, Deut 19:15.

In the Talmud, the Jews interpreted a witness as a person or a documented piece of evidence. A witness may be an oath that is written or it may be persons who testify.

Jesus also confirmed the Old Testament demand for evidence to establish a matter by saying that every fact is to be confirmed by two or three witnesses so we can see that it is vital that every judicial matter be established with the required witnesses. Jesus said:

Mat 18:16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

Jesus then made it so important that every fact is established and confirmed that he said that not even his own testimony if it were alone would be considered valid without another witness.

John 5:31 “If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.

Jesus then goes on to establish his list of witnesses. He says that the Father is his witness John 5:37, John the Baptist is his witness John 5:33, the works that Jesus does are also his witness John 5:36, and the Scriptures testify about Jesus as witnesses John 5:39.

If Jesus himself accepted the need for a matter to be established with two or three witnesses even when it came to his own testimony, and he is the Son of God, then surely we can understand from the OT and the NT that a single witness cannot condemn a person because a matter has not been established by law. Paul said facts are repeated for our safety (Philippians 3:1) and the reason is because a matter that is not repeated can be misunderstood and misrepresented. It is then not safe. With the proper witnesses and the proper testimony a matter is established and the law is 100% established by the repetition of the charge of sin. If we have a “sin” that isn’t repeated and therefore it is not established as a charge of sin, then we need to ask ourselves why. Why would God break his chosen method of establishing a matter? Every single sin is documented in scripture with two or three witnesses and not even one has only one witness. If the “sin” of a godly woman teaching the truth of scripture to men is not established by a second witness, then God does not allow us to charge her with sin since it is not an established sin. It is not a safe matter to charge a woman with sin with only one scripture that has been taken out of its complete context. Scripture tells us over and over again that this is not safe and it is not allowed by God’s own law.

Deu 19:15 “A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

I appreciate your feelings if you do not want to continue to dialog. That is certainly up to you. But know this for a fact, that a matter of charging sin against a woman is not accepted by God’s own written standard with only one witness. 1 Timothy 2:12 does not say that godly women are not allowed to teach. There would have to be a second witness to determine that Paul was setting a brand new law against all godly women who teach men. No such law existed in the OT and no list of “sins” contains this particular sin. There is no second witness that it is godly women who are being barred from teaching and this “law” that we have accepted by tradition and not by God’s standard of the charge of sin, is invalid.

Now if you can find another place in scripture where women in general (including all godly women) are barred from teaching the bible to men, then we can consider it as an established “law”. Until then it doesn’t pass as God’s law since it does not have the required two or three witnesses.

I have also encouraged people to prove me wrong on this matter. Find even one universal sin that is only mentioned once in scripture and which does not have a second or third witness. I have never seen such a law. Every law has been properly established and has been properly documented by more than one scripture thus more than one witness.

This certainly is a very important principle since aberrant doctrine and cults themselves base their doctrine on one scripture taken out of its context. There is no second and third witness to false doctrine nor is there a second witness to a false charge of sin. The scriptures are clear – a second or third witness is for our safety.

Hi Tiffany,

Thanks for such great questions. Christ is the head of the church in that he nourishes the body and is the agent of growth to the body.

Eph 5:29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
Eph 5:30 because we are members of His body.

Christ nourishes the church by providing this Word to us for our growth and he also provides gifts to the church for the edification of the body.

How is the church to submit to Christ? The church is to accept the nourishment that Jesus gives to the body. The church is also to accept the sacrifice that Jesus has given to us. We are to submit to these things so that we can grow and mature and so we can have a full relationship with our Lord Jesus.

Hey Tiffany,

I am glad that you popped in again. You are right in that all are called to give an answer. You are also right in that not all are given the gift of teaching. The point of my post was for those who are called to teach the bible. For those who are called to doing good in teaching the bible (and teaching the bible in a correct and respectful way is always good), verse 13 & 14 are talking about suffering for the sake of righteousness (for doing what is good). In that context we come to verse 15 since it is a command in amongst verses that are talking about our suffering for doing what is right. Although it is not just about suffering for teaching the truth of God’s word, it certainly encompasses such suffering. If one uses their gift of exhorting and one suffers for using that gift in a godly manner, then this verse can also be used for one who is suffering for doing what is good. You said:

“Whether you believe in women teaching men or not, not all believers have the same gifting and yet vs. 15 is an instruction to all believers and can’t be pertaining to the gift of teaching as such.”

It is a verse specifically about suffering. If ANY believer is suffering for doing what is good or ANY believer is asked to give a reason for the hope that is within him or her, this verse is for them. In this respect it isn’t exclusively about teaching but it does include a woman suffering for the truthful teaching of God’s word. You also said:

“Furthermore, tying in verse 14 (suffering for doing what is right) to women suffering for teaching men assumes that teaching men is right. Suffering for something does not automatically mean that the person is in the right.”

The logic goes this way….if teaching the bible correctly is a godly thing then it cannot be something that is wrong unless scripture specifically tells us that God has a law against women teaching the truth of God’s word. Since there is no such law then we can rightfully assume that it is not wrong for a woman to teach the truth of God’s word to anyone who needs to hear that truth whether they are a woman or a man.

Does this make sense? If it doesn’t then you would need to prove that there is a specific “law” in scripture that forbids godly Christian women from teaching the truth of God’s word to men. This “law” must have the required two or three witnesses and having it listed in any list of “sins” would certainly qualify the list as one of the witnesses.

I hope that helps!