Jennifer

awesome comments, everyone.  Paula, you could NOT be more correct.

Exactly. Right now, I’m aiming to avoid them altogether, except on the rare occasion, so that I can continue to lose the scars and focus entirely on God’s true plan of fellowship and, shall I say, the priesthood of ALL believers. I forced myself so much to consider the idea of the preposterous complimentarian prejudice as being true, that I’m still getting used to the fact that I can laugh at it and I am not, in fact, going against Scripture by openly calling it ludicrous. So many of the things Stan said up there, especially about how the one common thing being that men tell women what to do, is true. I used to say that in anger, but it’s true.

Cheryl, Stan, Don, etc., you are amazing. For some unknown reasons, I forced myself out of fear to read some of Andreas Kostenberger’s book, “Women in the Church”. It is a mountain of patriarchy, and when I saw what appeared to be clear evidence that my precious egalitarian understanding of the verse in Timothy was not accurate, I felt a piece of my heart start to struggle in a death throw. That struggle continued when I did the unthinkable and began looking into Wayne Grudem’s most detailed work; more evidence to the contrary of my beliefs surfaced. I began to search different complimentarian books, compelled by fear and perhaps a Satan-driven force. Part of me was suddenly in doubt; ever since I watched Cheryl’s amazing DVDs and finished Joanne Krupp’s book “Woman”, I was certain that complimentarianism would never threaten me truly again, and now it was. My own evidence didn’t seem to be enough; I felt as though any evidence offered by egalitarians would be disproven and flung aside by Grudem or some other person of the same mindset, and I feared I could never have a rock-solid faith again.

I pleaded to God to help me, because the most persistent thorn in my side was the voice saying that my common sense, my instinct that patriarchy is wrong and logically flawed, was overruled by Scripture. This same instinct, this root deep in my heart that always looked at patriarchy and cried “this isn’t right, this just doesn’t make sense” was now being overshadowed by a taunt of “The Bible says it is! The Bible says it is!” It was hard, very hard. Then, somewhere along the line, I began to gain faith again. Suddenly, Grudem’s arguments seemed humorous. When he claimed that Paul said women should be silent because of the law (in Corinthians) I remembered Joanne Krupp and my own female pastor friend, Dawn Wilson, saying that Paul was quoting these words back to Pharisee-like men, and rejecting them by saying “Has the Word of God come forth from you”?, thus challenging them NOT to follow the old Laws, influenced by the Talmud. I remembered Cheryl’s painstaking teaching about the culture and the times, and when I came upon Grudem’s claim that men should rule because Adam was created first, I laughed out loud at it, just as I had the first time. Suddenly I was a free spirit again, just as I’d been when I first confidently approached this issue, with the ready assurance that God must not have forbad His daughters the teaching of His Word. Kostenberger and his complimentarian text lost credibility too, when I began to see the same sort of logic within his writing. I remembered all the valuable lessons Cheryl and other great men and women had taught me; I would not be uneducated now. The puzzle of confidence and conviction was almost wholly repaired when I returned here and read, once again, Stan’s amazing story. First, his criticisms of complementarianism would just not allow the movement to stand any longer. Secondly, the egalitarian position, so beautifully described by him, did indeed fit Scripture far better (and I was enlightened of this fact partly by Frank Viola’s work, “Who is your Covering?”, which proved a good while ago to me that human fellowship, and not hierarchy, is the undisputed Holy design for God’s church). And lastly, Stan’s blessed words, “I don’t claim to have all the answers”, put my heart at rest. Oh daughter of God, all answers are never needed in faith. This debate will be going on for years on end, and there will always be another answer from each side; BOTH sides have incomplete issues. But, as Stan so wonderfully said, the problems with egalitarianism are far, far easier to live with than those of the other side. Egalitarianism fits more perfectly with the Bible, with Christ’s teachings of humility, with fellowship love. Who could dare claim that human hierarchy is God’s plan rather fellowship and humility?? Those are not God’s ways.

Thank you God, for once again teaching me of the truth and even forcing me to declare my loyalty to you even if all my hopes were wrong. Thank you Cheryl, Don, and Stan. You’ve reminded me of the treasures of God’s ways and truth, and how it’s all right to not have all the answers all the time. I will trust God, and His plan so beautifully outlined for me.

Cheryl, God has used women many times when men might not listen: look at Mary Magdelene at Christ’s tomb, and the Samaritan woman. The fact is, pride and fear are what keep these hard comps from listening to you; they don’t respect women (contrary to their patronizing claims) and some part of them, like any tyrant, is scared you’ll wrench their authority away from them. The fact is, some men DO listen; men have been changed by your DVD and by books written by women too on the subject. The blind ones will never see, they want authority more than servanthood, but the wise will listen.

I think that a real man wouldn’t have a problem debating you on your home front. A man afraid of a debate with a woman? huh? Aren’t the men suppose to correct the women in the church? Apparently Matt is afraid.

Thank you, Greg. Praise God that He’s given you both instincts and clear evidence in His Word, plus the wisdom and courage to use it!

“why only males needed to be circumcised”

Excuse me for being blunt, but I always thought the reason for this was that only males have the male organ?
I mean, there’s no such thing as female circumcision (shudder) Only female genital mutilation. Men have foreskins, whereas women have no such expendable parts.

Oh, you were quoting someone in your #59 post, Berean? Sorry, I didn’t catch that before :S

Don’t worry, Berean, I’m sure she’s heard it all before.

Thank you for the welcome! 🙂 I’m thrilled to be in the company of devoted and learned Christians.

Cheryl, I had no idea these people actually threatened you with hell! Good heavens, that and the fact that they hide their faces after doing so makes them outright cowards! I guess I’m just so used to kind complimentarians; there are a few I know and love and some I revere as wonderful Christian writers. Both of these (the writers and the ones I’ve spoken to) are kind people who have proven to me that they respect my position, do NOT believe I’m in any danger of hell, and believe what they do because they honestly interpret the Bible this way, and not because they have an agenda against women (as so many others do). We don’t believe each other is going to hell because we know not only that we’re all human and open to error, but also that our motives are pure and we are operating under the desire and wish to obey God.

I’m sorry you’ve had such bad experience! Certainly there are some people like that out there (I call them “patriocentrists”, a word that a lady I know quite appropriately christened them with) and they’d do well to guard their hearts more properly.

Blessings to you for handling them in a far more Christian way than I could!

Oh yes, I know where you’re coming from 🙂 Sorry, I think I meant to confirm that in my previous post, but posted before I was really finished typing. I think your doormat comment just brought up some bad memories for me. It was necessary, though, for anyone who doubts your motives.

Hi Cheryl. Of course I don’t think feelings should take precedence over the Word, and I hardly think unmarital sex compares in any way to the feelings of pain that I described. Sex will feel good if done well no matter what; it was built to be pleasurable, so naturally I think there’s a huge difference between doing something good in the wrong time (premarital sex) and doing something that’s blatantly wrong no matter what. “Feeling” that you’re right and feeling pain when you do something that harms you are two separate issues. It would be like trying to live our lives without love; God designed us for love, so this wouldn’t work and our own self-induced misery would be proof of it.

Cheryl, I have two thoughts on the refusal for those men to speak with you. For one thing, I would personally be relieved. Not only could this be proof of their awareness of their own weaknesses and failure to stand up to scrutiny, but it may be less of a headache. (It would to me, anyway, but then I’m not as knowledgeable on the matter as you).

on the other hand, it might actually be a sign of respect for them not to debate with you. They may know the Scripture exhorting people to reveal sin, but they probably also know that we are all human and therefore our interpretations of the Bible are open to the possibility of error. If they are not power mongers, then they would not be obsessed with correcting you. Perhaps that’s their reason.

Cheryl, I absolutely adore your posts and your awesome Scriptural understanding. On a minor point here, though, I was rather disturbed when you said, “I was willing to give up everything and to live my life as a doormat if that is the only thing that God allows women to do.”

That is the ultimate test, isn’t it? Even I have forced myself to say, “God, Praise You, even if I’m wrong about all this” (women being pastors). However, I’ve found that sometimes, feelings are reliable. Satan’s biggest and closest-cutting lie has been to tell me God wants me as a doormat. Moreover, he mocks my devotion when doing this, saying, “Don’t you want to be a doormat for your God? Are you not to obey Him? What does it matter if this tears into your soul and sears your heart’s flesh, it is your beloved God’s command!” Indeed, we are called to completely die to ourselves for God. However, Satan would like us to die to such an extent that we’re no longer of any use to anyone. Thus, he tells us that God wants things for us that are not natural or healthy to the very mold that God created us in. And how do we know that we’re being told lies that hurt our very souls? Our souls tell us! When something feels unnatural, horrible, as painful as an infected wound that poisons the very heart, we know there’s something wrong. Pain is a natural part of life, but some kinds of pain are strong warning signs that something harmful, even dangerous, to our being is happening. When we exercise, for example, our muscles stretch, our bones strengthen, and our lungs strain for more air, naturally causing aches and soreness. This kind of pain is healthy and a sign of growing, not unlike the “growing pains” we feel as Christians when we increase in our faith, die to self, become living sacrifices for God, and persevere through painful trials in order to cling to our trust in God.

On the other hand, consider the pain we’d feel if we put our hand over an open flame or a hot burner. Would this pain be the result of something natural and healthy? No! It would be our bodies’ way of saying “get your hand off that stove! It’s hurting you badly!” This is the same kind of pain our souls feel when Satan lies to us and tries to grind his deception into our hearts: our hearts rebel and tell us to stop listening and flee for healing. THIS kind of pain, this kind of feeling, is right and can be trusted. We need God’s word, of course, but I instinctively knew that the false design of female doormat as told by Satan’s followers was wrong from the beginning, because the surface wounds my soul already bore from them were crying out in protest. God would never ask us to do something we were not designed to do; if women were designed to be what the likes of John Rice said they were, we’d be dull, soft creatures with no vitality and no real connection to God. As it is, everything in a strong woman contradicts this design. What I’m saying, in a nutshell, is that sometimes, our feelings can be trusted. They cannot always serve as proof alone, but there is reason behind them. When your entire being cries out against something like a heart rejecting a knife blade, you know something’s not natural or right.

Matt’s hatred has backfired and his radio show program is now showing your DVD!! I LOVE it! AAAughh! (sorry, is that vindictive of me? :P)

Hi, Cheryl. Firstly, I am 100% egalitarian. I believe with all my being that women and men have the same rights to rulership on God’s earth. On that note, I never thought I’d say this to another egalitarian, but I think you’re making a huge stretch here (dang, did I never think I’d say that!) While you don’t say it and you don’t seem to believe it, I think you are greatly implying that Adam and the male seed through him have fallen lower than woman has. You said that men don’t have a different sin nature than women, yet what I see throughout your post and especially one of your responses is that sin is through the male line and we are cursed through our father, rather than our mother. It’s my understanding that both parents give us the mark of sin, not just our fathers. I understand and agree with the fascinating idea of Jesus only coming through woman’s seed because of the bloodline, but this does not, to me, follow with the line of thinking that we, in turn, are cursed only by our father’s line and not our mother’s. This almost sounds like a bigger wallop to men than certain secular people have made.

The biggest clincher by far, for me, was when you said Eve was not banished from the garden but only went to follow her husband. Um, Eve sinned; thus, she was no longer fit to be in the garden, regardless of whether her motive for sin was more severe than Adam’s. Furthermore, don’t you think God would want her to be with her husband? How would humankind progress if man went alone without woman? Besides, again, woman was no longer fit to be in the garden either. The idea that God would bansih man, but leave woman free to enjoy the garden if she chose, is WAY too out there for me.