Jennifer

“It seems to me that Kamilla exposed you, and you want to cover your nakedness with a fig leaf of hypocrisy”

Donna. Your accusation is a joke. And Kamilla, very like a pit bull to any and all egals/polite disagreers (?) with the Baylys, is sister to no one but her own falsely submissive kin.

“He taught us all how to relate to God, not how to be God! But an eternally subordinate Christ is something they cannot bring themselves to model, even though Jesus told his male disciples point blank to do exactly that. Never in scripture is anyone told to act like God. Christ is our human example, our Brother, our teacher. Yet some men refuse to bow to him or share in his humility”

Paula, SO well-said!! Amazing.

It’s unbelievable that the Baylys call CBMW wimpy as far as patriarchal beliefs go. Someone on CBMW wrote a bogus article saying wives must be subordinate for eternity, even in heaven!! That’s not enough for those awful-minded men?

Oh it’s you, Jane. Yes, I remember your side-long comments against others and strange logic. No surprise.

Greg, you are awesome!! 🙂

The Baylys blusteringly asked a woman to correct you and Kamilla, their resident idol of Bayly-prescribed womanhood, eagerly volunteered. Gah, that’s too funny for words.

Cheryl, the Baylys are frightening in their horrid treatment and mockery of manhood, aren’t they? The fact that they spluttered into blasphemy just to shut Suzanne up is almost amusing. I’m sure the only bruises she carries from that encounter are blue marks on her ribs from laughing.

You know the link at the top of this page “Laugh your way to a better marriage”? Thanks to the cruel and clumsy likes of the Baylys, I think many can laugh their way to a better theology than complementarianism! 🙂

Indeed Heidi, look at the loopholes you’ve embraced in order to put fleshly hierarchy over fellowship and accuse dissenters of not loving God. Ironically, we believe what we do because we love God and His Word MORE than man.

Flawless work as usual, Cheryl. Lin, you hit the patrio on the head: all it is for them is a matter of control.

Hey there, Pinklight! Thank you! 🙂 Have we met online before?

“And now, we see a number of groups (including the CCC-forum) that consider CBMW “wimpy” and “closet egalitarians” because they acknowledge that scripturally, a man is not supposed to rule over his wife”

OMG, are you serious? I thought the little monsters were practically worshipping the CBMW; Craig certainly pretended to be their little avenging angel. My God, these people are just wicked. Or perhaps delusional and weak-minded would be better terms. Mary, you’re very smart.

“I was just hoping that I wasn’t offending you by editing your post”

Nah 🙂 It’s not the first time, and I for one do respect the authority of blog-owners, especially morally responsible ones. Big hug to you too 🙂 Thanks for your kind example.

Thanks 🙂 Indeed, Danni is quite smart, and thank you for her link. I’m just astounded at how you, her, and some of my older egal friends speak the truth so calmly, even when they’re castigating an abuser. How do they do it??? I guess you more or less just answered that. One of the things that Michael Pearl said is, more or less, “never get angry. Just state the facts, and no one can defeat you.” Of course, there are times we do get angry, but his words are wise; I’ve seen that man gracefully tear up bad doctrine before, with sharp words, yet he never seemed mad. It’s an art that must come with years. As it is, I’m still a bit proud of myself for not using a single cuss word in my earlier rant; I don’t know if I’ve ever been that angry before in my life, so considering how wrathful my temper and sharp my tongue, that was a first step.

That Danni is one of heck of a cool woman, and I told her so. She handled that silly child with responsibility and discipline, just what he needs.

You know, I think one of the reasons I was so unbearably furious was that I expected more from those people. They spoke, bogusly, of egals being like nailing Jello to a wall, which is of course JUST LIKE THEM. As someone on Danni’s blog pointed out, this is the sin of “deflection”. I should have realized that HPK was obviously a verbal abuser, and others on his blog were probably all like him and Kamilla: childish and petty with a history of bullying. Usually, once I realize someone with offensive comments has a history like that, I get over my outraged shock, shrug and say “Oh, they’re one of THEM; no wonder.” My instincts will have to be faster in the future.

“Believe it or not there are some decent complementarians out there who do not act this way and comps are not our enemy”

I know, though I sure was ready to forget that a few minutes ago. If I really offended you, please forgive me; I would never have used those words if they hadn’t showed their monstrous spirits first; I hope, in that sense, I wasn’t at their level. Come to think of it, I don’t think they’re true complimentarians, even; they’re not even true Christians. Believe me, what I wanted to say was far, far worse, though; at least I used metaphors (oh all right, slangs)

For the record, I adore John Piper, Martha Peace, Nancy Leigh Demoss, Lori Wick, Michael and Debi Pearl (two of the BEST comps in the whole wide world), and even John MacArthur in his better days. I also like Stacy Mcdonald, when she’s on good behavior. But these folks..ugh. I’m amazed HPK even considers himself on the same planes as some of the finer folk in the CBMW. They’re just children, errant children.

I visited that link, Mary, and I just about had a heart attack now. That’s how hard I was struggling with rage and hate in my heart, … That disgusting little boy and his thumb-sucking friends were practically roasting in their self-righteousness and slander of Cheryl and the others here. One of the silly children actually called HPK “Daniel in the lioness’s den”! That man …called Cheryl a witch! I’m not sure I’ve ever felt this kind of anger before; …. And Kamilla Ludwig, … erected by the Bayly brothers on their hateful blog, was saying awful things and lies too. These people are disgusting, … and I have never, ever seen such a cesspit of self-congratulation and verbal group-gratification before, not even when I mistakenly visited a blog of patrio-centric wife-spankers.

You wouldn’t believe how restrained my comments are here; I was ready to let forth a string of unGodly curses that would make even these demons blush down to their soiled white robes. They’ve erected a …means of authority and reverence, and they call our beliefs the pit of hell? I hope God’s more merciful to them than He was to the Israelites with their idolatry and self-worship.

Praise God, my heart is calm now.
(edited by Cheryl)

Huh. Another cowardly comp runs out. Honestly, that line about the Holy Spirit is especially funny. I couldn’t believe his arrogance! Men like that practically need to wear spiritual protective sports cups when they talk to those who don’t buy their “men rule” schlock.

I guess Deborah and Huldah and roasting in hell, then, for daring to teach men. So will my poor pastor’s wife for leading our Bible study.

How about you try one Timothy Forum, then? Or are you just here to blow steam and a lot of bluff? Nah, couldn’t be that.

Your presumptions about Cheryl and her situation with the CBMW are remarkably ignorant. They are the ones blessed to have any dealings with her, not the other way around. They wanted to refute her teachings, they failed, and now so have you.

“I simply don’t have time to hop and skip from one Forum on Timothy to the other”

But you think she has time to repeat every refuting statement she’s ever made for your convenience? It seems that you’ve parked your butt here and expect us to respond in YOUR timeframe and your terms.

“I’m not going to use my valuable time to go through your teachings and nitpick them to death”

Nah, you’ll just use our valuable time to try and blow crud down our throats while threatening to dismantle our beliefs- and never actually doing so. Thank you for the empty condescension; you comp fellas really do think you’re bigger than your britches. And a little friendly note: the only resentment here has been yours. You blustered your way here, peered down your eyeglass at us, and threatened to prove us wrong. Cheryl has been polite; you haven’t. She’s been gentle in her honesty; you’ve been arrogant. I suggest you take the sock out of your pants, the cotton out of your ears, and try dealing with matters like a real man, actually LISTENING to the other side. I don’t mind people coming here and disagreeing, but I do mind arrogance and I do mind empty threats. Don’t bother wasting our time by threatening to fuss over and nitpick our beliefs if you have no intention of actually doing so.

“I will simply share with you what the whole context of the Word states that women can do …. and SHOULD be doing ….. instead of seeking to usurp male authority in church and family”

Lord, how pathetic. There it is again: it’s all about male authority. Men don’t HAVE authority over women and there is NO human hierarchy in the church!! You can’t grasp this, can you? Males MUST have authority and that’s what you prefer to believe in, instead of people sharing equally in fellowship. This doctrine really is pitiful and obsessed with authority. Maybe if men concentrated more on God being the only Priest and King and treated their sisters with respect, they wouldn’t have time to listen to Satan tickle their ears with promises of power and fill their hearts with greedy lust for hierarchy?

I noticed you ignored all my other points, perhaps because you couldn’t refute them? Once again, the ridiculous claim that we haven’t used Scripture. Once again: It is in Scripture that Christ said it was not good to raise princes among ourselves. It was in Scripture that the word “preach” is used more than the word “pastor”, which comps have tried to wield into a position of spiritual king. It was in Scripture that God spoke of Adam and Eve as being equal, of one flesh, made to rule the world. It is NOT accurate or Scriptural to say that women are equal, yet try to limit them in the spreading of God’s Word in ANY way. It is in Scripture that God warned Eve she’d prefer her husband over God, and that he would sinfully rule her. Are you having trouble finding these verses, Happy? Can you not comprehend that there are at least six other threads on this site discussing Timothy? Scroll up the page and look on the right, to “Categories”. They’re all right there, nice and simple. It would give me great satisfaction to see you try and tackle them, rather than threatening to run away like a pompous child.

“Please show me where Jesus appointed any female Disciples.
Please show me where a female was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.”

LOL That’s the biggets laugh of all. We’re supposed to believe in complimentarianism if we can’t prove that were any female disciples? Who the devil cares whether there were or not? There weren’t any Gentile disciples either, does that mean only Jews can be priests?

Hmm. Happy keeper, all I’ve seen is condescension bordering on snideness and Scripture abuse. You seriously believe that women are restricted from preaching God’s Holy Word because of their gender?? What’s hilarious to me is that comps can never agree why, or even how much women are limited: some claim they’re only limited from teaching men the Bible in church. Others believe women can’t teach men about God anywhere, while still others believe that women may NEVER teach men ANYTHING. It’s almost humorous, really, as is your defense of the CBMW, and especially your comparison of it to Billy Graham’s group. I’m sorry, hon, there’s NO comparison between the two in size, giftedness, humility, purpose, popularity, or importance. I also noticed that wile you called my observations of Ware and Grudem character assinations. you didn’t contradict them. You can’t contradict direct quotes.

“If women were to simply humble themselves and follow what they CAN do in Scripture, they would have no time to assume roles they CANNOT assume through the Word.”

THAT is just pathetic. If only women would humble themselves and keep their mouths shut, the comps whine, the churches (i.e., men) would be SO much happier. The note of desperation in comps is always to tell men that they’re being emasculated and victimized if the women don’t shut up. You people never see the harm to womanhood of putting a gag order on women, yet wail until your faces are blue if men don’t have supremacy in EVERYTHING. You said we haven’t used Scripture? It is in Scripture that Christ said it was not good to raise princes among ourselves. It was in Scripture that the word “preach” is used more than the word “pastor”, which comps have tried to wield into a position of spiritual king. It was in Scripture that God spoke of Adam and Eve as being equal, of one flesh, made to rule the world. It is NOT accurate or Scriptural to say that women are equal, yet try to limit them in the spreading of God’s Word in ANY way. It is in Scripture that God warned Eve she’d prefer her husband over God, and that he would sinfully rule her. Some comps say this was a command to Eve, which is cute, in a disgusting sort of way. Firstly, even most comps try to claim that they don’t believe men should rule over their wives. And secondly, it was clearly not a command, but a warning. If it was a command, God would have said “Eve, desire your husband” or “Adam, rule over her”, but indeed, God’s prediction came true: we have “godly” men trying to rule women and women seeking more to please these men by shutting up than God, by speaking up and serving Him. If you understood that a pastor in a church is meant to be one of many shepherds, instead of spiritual king of the flock, perhaps you wouldn’t be so frightened of emasculating men by taking such “holy hierarchy” away from them.

” I have seen some egalitarians go so far as to denigrate Paul’s teachings and blaspheme the Word by claiming that Paul “did not have the same authority or annointing that Jesus had and therefore his words cannot be considered divine or as pertinent as Jesus’s”. ”

Oh my, you’re not used to REALLY scholarly egals, are you? Welcome to the eagle’s nest. And btw, if you think THAT’S bad, the lowering of Paul’s authority, how about the lowering of Christ’s authority? You know, what Wayne Grudem did? I didn’t see you getting into a huff over that. Seems to me just another comp who doesn’t have their priorities quite right.

I think he’s basically good, but not truly a man of God.

David, I called Grudem wicked for his deliberate lowering of God, not because of complimentarianism. I have actually tried to give him the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but neither his motives nor his scholarship are good. He is not a fine man of God at all, regardless of whether he is generally wicked, and a theologian is the last thing in the world he resembles. I also know that Ware, who is truly corrupt, fine-tuned his unbiblical agenda while under Grudem’s tutelage.

I guess their attitude is simply this: ignore the truth and keep spreading the patrio nonsense. Immerse ourselves in our great masculinity. If we just don’t answer the woman who knows more than us, she’ll go away. Sorry dearies, she won’t.

Perhaps I should not have said that it shows a bad agenda on their part, when they couldn’t refute the DVD. It may have just been honesty: they knew they were beaten. But if they know that, how can they keep up this repression?

Yup, it shows honesty on their part. What I wonder is how they can keep this up?

“CBMW requested a copy of my DVD set in 2006 and they were unable and unwilling to refute it”

Really? OMG, Cheryl, that is AWESOME! They didn’t even try, but I guess that’s fairly common. It shows their agenda.

There are some mighty good people in CBMW, like John Piper and Susan Hunt. But others, like Grudem and especially Ware, are just so unBiblical it’s tragic.

“Egalitarianism is not taught nor was it modeled in Scripture. It takes an extreme twisting of the Word to buy into the egalitarian belief”

LOL Sure it isn’t. Actually, the complimentarian view of constant human hierarcy is what’s biased and not taught. Are you aware that those who force either women or men to step under another person almost always lower Christ in order to do so? Wayne Grudem is wicked enough to not only lower Christ, but claim that when God acts as helper to us, He is acting subordinate! Are you aware that Bruce Ware claims that unsubmissive wives invite abuse and that we should not even pray to Jesus? That’s what these people are like: obsessed with authority. Ware happily preaches about how it’s Godly to practice heavy authority over others, completely unaware that this is NOT what God’s Word says. Christ clearly says that raising up princes among us is not His plan; fellowship is. Christian authority comes from sharing God’s Word, not trying to build human hierarchy over others. The word pastor is rarely used anywhere at all in the Bible; instead, “preaching” is exhorted quite often, with no limits on gender whatsoever. As for husband being king over the wife, I rather fear you have no problem with that disgusting doctrine either. Your challenge here, all blustery and indignant, is rather amusing. I’m happy you decided to stick around. Become learned in what is truly God’s Word.

You’re more than welcome, Cheryl 🙂 Thank YOU

I left a message. Could you guys call me back tomorrow? I’d like to get the DVD shipped to me as fast as possible.

Thank you!! Can’t wait to own it. Did I tell you I can’t get enough of your “Women” DVD? 😛

Cheryl, is there any way I could pay for this with credit card online here? I have no PayPal account. Thanks