Kay

LMB,

I think this part:
“But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.”
makes it clear that the rulers referred to are NOT our fellow believers. We are certainly not called on to bear literal swords against one another, or be in fear of one another, and nowhere are believers called “agents of wrath to bring punishment” I agree with gengwall.

Piper: “He will take into the account the truth that her sexual needs and desires carry the same weight as his own in developing the pattern of their intimacy.”

Cheryl,
Curious that her sexual needs and desires carry the same weight as her husband’s, but not the rest of her needs and desires. Can anyone say, “defy logic?”

Can anyone say, “If there is even one tiny exception to a rule, then it is not a rule?”

“Has anyone else seen a hierarchy system that actually worked well and didn’t include some abuse?”

LMB,
Exactly, since no one, except Jesus, is perfect, we know that it is an impossibility for any human to ever carry that out.
“Now an argument sprang up among them as to which one of them was to be regarded as the greatest.” (sound familiar?) “But he said to them, “The kings of the gentiles lord it over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called benefactors. But you are not to do so. On the contrary, the greatest among you should begin to be as the youngest, and the one who leads should begin to be as the one who serves.”

“An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him. Then he said to them, “Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all—he is the greatest.” Luke 9:48

Is it just me, or does it seem to you that His disciples had a hard time “getting” this??

“I have been mulling things over all morning and wondered if hierarchy and relationship were incompatible.”
Dave,
I wonder if perhaps what you meant here is: if hierarchy and servanthood are compatible?

*”for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.” Matthew 23:8*

We cannot all be serving only one Master, if
some of us
must answer to others of us
in authority over us.

Because “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other.” Matthew 6:24
….and that is a big problem. Because as you say, in Jesus is the only place where hierarchy and relationship exist together, not in tension but in harmony.

“The great thing about Jesus is he is where hierarchy and relationship exist together, not in tension but in harmony. He has authority, but chooses to serve us with his authority.”
Dave,
He is the only one in whom hierarchy and relationship exist together perfectly because He is the ONLY one with authority…because – dare I say it again?? – Matthew 28:18 says He has it “all.”

What part of ‘all’ do comps not understand? It’s a simple concept really – as in “I ate all the cookies, so how many are left for you?” None. “Correct”

Jesus has all authority, so how much is left for hierarchists?

…time to sleep while you commentors in a different time zone carry on….zzzzzz

It puts a man between a woman and the Holy Spirit’s place in her life.

It makes her relationship with God something different than a man’s.

It makes it dependant on man.

“Leader” denotes human endeavor…it does not give the Holy Spirit the credit”
Lin,
That’s the main problem with the hierarchist set-up.

Dave,
I’m sorry you had a bad encounter on another blog. It’s difficult for me to understand why people would rather shout “heretic” and cut another person to shreds, rather than try to correct in love if they think the other person is lost or in error. It’s sad.

That is one thing I luv about this blog – a comp like Mark comes here and no one attacks him personally or treats him like the Enemy. Yes, the discussions get passionate – I’m certain I’ve exasperated Mark at times (sorry Mark) but the main focus here is to find and teach Truth. Not just some “We are the winning side” attitude.

People who like to be in authority will tend to see it as necessary everywhere and in every relationship. People who see Jesus as having ALL authority will view all relationships differently. Just summing…

“When they see Jesus correcting bad behavior and doctrine within the various chruches in Revelation, they interpret that as justification to scrutinize, correct, and even punish their wives. They view all of this as righteous “love” because this is supposedly how Christ “loved” the Church.”

In short, gengwall, they want to play God. Haven’t people always longed to do that? don’t we all long to be ‘right’ all the time? to have things done our way?

“You need to treat me as you would treat him if he was here in the earthy form.”
Hannah,
And how convenient is that. And so one simply over looks loving your “neighbor as yourself.” Loving your husband like he is God trumps that apparently???

THANKS DAVE 😉 and I’m with you I see hierarchy as abuse as well. And also in the sense of abusing/misusing/usurping Christ’s authority.

gengwall,
Yes, THE delimma – I suppose it boils down to with what mindset one views God and Scripture. I mean how much a person can ignore/justify/misread/etc… Matthew 28:18 to snatch part of Jesus’ ALL for one’s self.

Nourishment for the body comes through the head by mouth. Nourishment for the Body comes through the Head – Christ.

“And I am wondering if we are making a mistake by using “over” instead of “of”. He is head “of” the church, not head “over” the church.”
Cheryl,
You’ve nailed it! That’s what we’ve been stumbling on. Jesus has ALL authority OVER the Church and He is the Head OF the Body.

(caps just for emphasis – not shouting 🙂 )

gengwall,
How about: Jesus is THE only One with authority over the church – “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” Matt. 28:18
Since He has ALL authority, then there is none left for anyone else. None, zero, zilch.
Everyone else is a bondservant.

I found Jeff VanVonderen’s book “Families Where Grace Is In Place” to be very helpful as a non-threatening rather soft-spoken introduction to what’s wrong with hierarchial relationships.

“Any thoughts?”

The Body of Christ has only One Head.
Jesus is still THE Leader/Head of the church – as He has not given anyone else His place. Everyone else is a bondservant. Anyone claiming otherwise is usurping the place of The Leader.

There is a vast difference in serving others by example and claiming authority over them.

Mark wrote: “so we have to reconstruct the early ‘heresies’ from what is written within the orthodox… the old ‘history is always written by the winners’ debarkle.”
Mark,
I appreciate your addressing my concerns about the full reliability of the “Church fathers” – it’s refreshing that you and I actually have some ground of agreement. 😉

Mark wrote: “And not only that they show us what was ‘orthodox’ christianity in those years.”

Please bear in mind during discussions here, that was good reason for a Reformation. Huss was burned at the stake for believing the Bible is THE Christian authority and Christ, rather than a pope, is THE head of the Church.

One of the 3 main tenets of the Reformation was the Priesthood of All Believers – I’m sure we both agree.

What I see is that this tenet has not been fully implemented to All Believers. Men are still holding on to a different Priesthood.

Just because verses have been interpreted in a certain way for much of church history does not mean that said interpretation is true – or else we would all still be Roman Catholic. 🙂

Aside from desiring to keep a certain portion of the Priesthood of All Believers for themselves, I find it difficult to see another reason why hierarchists are so sure of interpreting verses 11-14 literally, but not verse 15 which is clearly connected – because taken literally that would be heresy.
Or why comps try to teach that Christ is THE head of Church and that a woman has 2 heads. That is contradictory.

😉 But somehow it’s not heresy to teach the “traditional” interpretation that women are easily deceived and therefore should not be allowed to teach men, so to ruin them as Eve did with Adam.

No where in God’s word does it say there will be only one Reformation.

“LOL – I am not sure what a “falcor” is, but”

Glad you cleared that up, gengwall – I was about to run for the Webster’s to see what I’d been missing about false arguments all my life.

And I understand your disappointment about MacArthur after you’d enjoyed one of his books so well. I had that same feeling about Peterson when The Message came out. His book “A Long Obedience In The Same Direction” was very helpful to me years ago…

““because the Church fathers said so”.”
TL,
Sometimes the Church fathers (and who gave them that allustrious title, anyhow?) get stuck in my craw, too. Why do carry so much weight? Because they’re dead? There are many good theologians today. Why do people think they knew more than we do today? Perhaps, because I didn’t grow up in church, I just don’t have that relationship with the traditions and church histories.

“Is “complete nonsense” a category of logical fallacy?”
lmb,
LOL – that was good!

TL,
Sorry you’re sick, but you have a lot of good company – does that help?? 😉

I know what you mean, gengwall.
Sorry not to be more help with your fallacies delimma – honestly, I’m not sure I understand what you are looking for…maybe because you substituted the subject…dunno. I’d email with you about it, but don’t know your’s and don’t want to publish mine here (not sure Cheryl would appreciate that either).
Hopefully, someone will chime in soon.

“The bible teaches that sin came through Adam; everyone who believes the husband is the leader of the family rejects this teaching.”
gengwall,
Reminds me of a Sesame Street song “one of these things just doesn’t belong here…”
One doesn’t necessarily lead to or require the other to be true.

“The way I take it, it seems to me that Mark is hinting that I will be punished for teaching especially teaching women that they may use their gifts for the benefit of the body of Christ.”
Cheryl,
I figured he would hold your husband accountable – ultimately Mark thinks husbands are where the proverbial buck stops.
A woman just can’t win in Mark’s economy – we’re punished for sinning and punished for teaching the truth. 🙁

“The problem with MacArthur is that he thinks he has a quick solution so he isn’t looking further.”
Cheryl,
And apparently it’s working fine for him – because his followers never seem to notice he’s leaving off part of the verse.

TL,
You know the thing that gets me about MacArthur is that it’s practically impossible for me to believe that he hasn’t noticed something like Gen. 3:6 “gave to her husband with her.” I just can’t swallow that he has not noticed those words before.

“So according to MacArthur, since Adam wasn’t deceived “we can assume” he wasn’ t there. But Scripture says the exact opposite. Gen 3:6 “she gave some to her husband who was with her.” We can assume nothing of the kind, and there is no need for assumptions at all!”
lmb,
Doesn’t it make you wonder if anyone listening to his sermons has their Bible open to read along?
And comps accuse egals of “explaining away” verses, while MacArthur just ignores some like they are not there at all. ?????

“Kay, I think Cheryl said that Mark is going to be gone a couple months. So, don’t expect him to be answering any questions any time soon.”
TL,
Oh, I see. I assumed he must not be leaving until closer to Christmas, since Cheryl went over his last comments and asked him more questions.

gengwall,
I shudder to think what extra words the Message put in Romans 5 to make that square up.

Mark you wrote:
“I agree that the ‘roles’ of creator, redeemer ect were not eternal roles, since their was a time when creation was not.”
“Jesus was eternally in the Father’s bosom or at his side (Jn 1:18) and at the final resurection hands all things back to his Father and retain his position at the Father’s right side.”
Mark,
So, when Jesus “hands all things back to his Father” wouldn’t that temporal job/action/”role” be finished/ended – not eternally continuing?

Why not answer my question?
It’s easy, really – just “yes” or “no.”

Mark,
Why wasn’t it good for the man to be alone?

The promised Savior was “her Seed” (Gen.3:15).

Or do you believe that without the sinful influence of Eve, that Adam never would have sinned?

If yes, then Eve is really responsible for sin entering the world and Paul is wrong in all of Romans ch.5.

If yes, then why did God say, “It is not good that man should be alone?”