Kay

“Now, to deal with the matters you wrote about. A man does well not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.”
1 Cor.7:1-2

It appears that each man is given a choice and each woman is given a choice. The word ‘man’ in vs. 1 is ‘anthropos’ (human being) and ‘each man’ in vs. 2 is ‘hekastos.’

To me, context here is very important. In the verses just preceding 1 Cor. 7:4-5 it says,

“You know that your bodies are parts of the body of Christ. Shall I take a part of Christ’s body
and make it part of the body of a prostitute? Impossible! Or perhaps you don’t know that the
man who joins his body to a prostitute becomes physically one with her? The scripture says
quite plainly, “The two will become one body.” But he who joins himself to the Lord becomes spiritually one with him. Avoid immorality. Any other sin a man commits does not affect his
body; but the man who is guilty of sexual immorality sins against his own body. Don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and who was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourselves but to God; he bought you for a price. So use your bodies for God’s glory.” 1 Cor. 6:15-20

Since chapter/verse divisions were not originally part of this letter and considering that the sex act is THE defining difference between marriage and all other relationships, I see verses 15-20 as related to 7:4-5 (and all of ch. 7 for that matter). Every Christian – our body, soul and spirit – no longer belong to ourselves, but to God. “So use your bodies for God’s glory.” 1 Cor. 6:20

Now, I also notice a great similarity between the verses above and the beginning of Ephesians 5:
“Since you are God’s dear children, you must try to be like him. Your life must be controlled by love, just as Christ loved us and gave his life for us as a sweet-smelling offering and sacrifice that pleases God. Since you are God’s people, it is not right that any matters of sexual immorality or indecency or greed should even be mentioned among you. Nor is it fitting for you to use language which is obscene, profane, or vulgar. Rather you should give thanks to God. You may be sure that no one who is immoral, indecent, or greedy (for greed is a form of idolatry) will ever receive a share in the Kingdom of Christ and of God. Do not let anyone deceive you with foolish words; it is because of these very things that God’s anger will come upon those who do not obey him. So have nothing at all to do with such people. You yourselves used to be in the darkness, but since you have become the Lord’s people, you are in the light. So you must live like people who belong to the light, ” vs. 1-8.

and these verses at the end of ch. 5:
“In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”

We are all parts of Christ’s Body. One part cannot use another part at will.

“Or perhaps you don’t know that the man who joins his body to a prostitute becomes physically one with her? The scripture says quite plainly, “The two will become one body.” But he who joins himself to the Lord becomes spiritually one with him.” 1 Cor. 6:16-17

“But he who joins himself to the Lord becomes spiritually one with him.” vs.17
“”For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.” Eph.5:31-32

“I’ll wait a little longer before revealing my response.”

gengwall,
Apparently, your ‘little’ and my ‘little’ are two different things.

“Kay, you stole my response. :o)

Sorry about that, Lin.

“And, btw…I have known people where the problem with sex overdrive was the wife, not the husband.”

Perhaps we know the same people. 😉

Hannah,
I tried but kept getting an error message. ??

Me, too…but I’ll have to – I’m off to a couple of appointments in another city…*no laughter*

So, how did you respond on the men’s forum, gengwall?

gengwall,
Let’s put that in practical terms. Say you and your family have just had a crisis. You make a quick phone call to a friend for much needed prayer. Don’t we want to call on someone who will actually have enough physical self-control to pray for us?

gengwall,
I would also say it’s almost like the guy arguing that way is being ‘sexist’ against males – as in: men are so driven by sexual urges, by virtue of being male, that they cannot put their fasting and prayer to the Lord in the proper -of highest importance – perspective. In short, their ‘maleness’ comes before their God.

Shouldn’t ALL believers agree that prayer and fasting to the Lord are more important than our desires.

“So at the risk of offending, I would say tentatively that Eph 5 is irrelevant. *gengwall cringes*”
gengwall,
As you like to say, Saying it is so, doesn’t make it so – show me the proof.

*btw, that is a wild argument, if ever there was one.

gengwall,
That’s not in the text. 😉

“I don’t believe that they have come to my attention and to this blog haphazardly. I believe that it was a Divine appointment that God is using to bring a blessing into their lives.”
Cheryl,
I’m with you – No matter why people come in the first place, it’s no mistake!

“Remember I sent the DVDs at my cost. So what is it going to be? Would you like me to start a separate post that will be a public discussion just on the DVDs? I can do that if you would like. Just say the word.”

I wonder if NN realizes that Cheryl has been more than generous with these offers. Is he interested in debate practice or truth seeking?

“The interesting thing is that then in verse 4 Paul tells us where the appeal goes to – the ‘governance’ as NN put it. The woman is entitled to her conjugal rights and if she is denied she can appeal to herself as it is her that has authority over his body – she is the governing authority! Go Girl!!! Likewise the same for the husband. Go Boy.”

Well put, DAVE!

“Authenteo is given the meaning “usurp authority”; kephale is given the meaning “authority over”; ezer is given the meaning “helper”; teshuwqah is given the meaning “desire”; kyrios is given the meaning “lord”; hypotasso is given the meaning “submit” and is understood as a synonym to obedience. These are all wrong!”

As well, Susanna!

“In fact, I began to think that if Kristie would not go with me, I would go alone. After all, which is the greater good: staying married or saving souls? Or better, which is the greater evil: divorce or not following God’s call?”

This so aptly shows what a disconnect we can have sometimes with the reality of a situation – especially, if we think we have more Spiritual insight than “others.” OM, what a little power trip can do!

“In the spirit of Priscilla: Do you not think that God is powerful enough to call you both into ministry or do you think he only has enough power to call one of you? If so, then he is not a God worth your time anyway.”

Yes, what kind of teeny-tiny God would need to break up marriages and families to save others??
I’d like to meet Priscilla!

“I was just thinking: if greatness comes from serving and men should be “servant leaders,” what should women be? “Leading servants”?”

Good one, Susanna! That certainly illustrates the problem.

Susanna & Dave,

I would like to challenge hierarchist husbands to give up their ‘authority’ outside the bedroom as well and just see what happens to all aspects of their relationship, sexual or otherwise, with their wives. I would dare say, many would be pleasantly surprised.

“The implication is that the authority extends to more than just sex, I would suggest to even things like providing for and caring for the body under their jurisdiction (Ephesians 5:28-29).
To me, 1 Cor 7:3-4 is simply an outworking of the concept of what it is to be one flesh, a concept that I believe relates to so much more than simply the act of sex…”

Dave,
Yes, my sentiments exactly. The sex act is THE defining difference between marriage and all other relationships, and it is certainly not something that can be compartmentalized from the rest of the relationship. What happens outside the “bedroom” will certainly effect what happens inside, and vice versa. One-flesh doesn’t split in two upon leaving the bedroom.

NN,
I did not say that you said that. I was giving my thoughts about what you said.

“It might further be noted given your general form of argument that the “mutual submission” commanded in Eph 5 does not exclude the possibility of relationship hierarchy as can be seen in the commands to children regarding their parents and slaves regarding their masters.”

NN,
Yes, I can certainly understand how that could be possibility in the minds of those who do not regard the one-flesh union of marriage as being any different than the relationship between slaves and their masters or the relationship between children and their parents.

“However, wives are pointedly told to be under the “hupotassoe” of their husbands, (A Greek military term speaking of troops arranging themselves under the commands of their leader). while no reciprocal statement is made to the husbands (Eph 5, Col 3).”

NN,
Why did you make this statement since you are not claiming an exemption from Eph. 5:21 for husbands?

In the Greek, the word ‘hupotassoe’ is not included in verse 22 – hardly a pointed statement.

“I also never said that men were “exempt” from the general instruction on submission.”

NN,
So, since there is no exemption, then there is no “distinction.” Therefore this verse does nothing to bolster hierarchist’s proof and nothing to ‘flaw’ egalitarians.

“assume that you refer to Eph 5:21. But this is a generalized command within the Christian church, Paul makes a point of “hupotassoe” when speaking to the wife (and a point of agapao when talking to the husband) indicating distinction between the two.”

So, following that logic, it would mean that if the husband is exempt from submitting to his wife, then the wife must be exempt from the “love one another” commandment.

“Does the Ensign obey the Captain or the Admiral?…

And the correct answer of course is both, and the Admiral is supreme. Such is the nature of hierarchy.”

NN,
What does this have to do with a marriage?

“We are called to total unity with Christ and yet to absolute obedience to him. We are called his friends only after we have called him Lord (Jhn 15:14-15).”
NN,
I agree – absolute obedience to our Lord and Him only because “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other.” Matthew 6:24

“But I’m still struggling because I think the hiers. would agree that Jesus has all authority, and then go on to claim that he delegates it to certain ones chosen by him (husbands, pastors, elders, etc) and that all the rest of us just have to submit or obey.”

LMB,
Wouldn’t it ever occur to hierarchists to wonder why Jesus never mentions any delegating commands right there as He says, “The kings of the gentiles lord it over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called benefactors. But you are not to do so.” ?? or when He says, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth” ??

If He is so bent on delegating His authority to husbands and certain males, why does He actually say just the opposite?

Clearly, He missed the perfect teachable moment by NOT saying, *All authority has been given to Me in heaven and earth; and now I delegate this same authority to male elders, male teachers, male preachers and to all husbands, including unbelieving husbands – so they may be won to Christ.*

Not.

A.Amos,
Hmmm…Just venturing here, from the context surrounding vs.28 and continuing with vs.29 “And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” It would mean that we are all one thing – heirs.
The circumsized Jew has not advantage over the Greek; the free person has no advantage over the slave; males have no advantage over females.

“The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ” Rom. 8:16-17

We are all heirs through the Spirit – not physical means.

“A dominating partner can’t empty him or herself, nor can the one being dominated, since they are both striving after what they want, forgetting that what they want as individuals needs to take a backseat to strengthening the relationship, and a significant backseat to glorifying God.”
Allison,
Good point!
How can they so misrepresent the beauty of the mutual love of “one-flesh” marriage relationships (like mine) turning them into a lord/servant relationship? Thereby actually creating power struggles instead of fostering loving cooperation.

It’s no wonder Christian book stores, seminars and Bible study guides for hierarchist marriages are rampant – they’ve created a problem and there is no end to solving it!

“As such, I believe that anything purposely done by a man (or woman) to “kick into gear” their sexual biology, no matter how minor, violates their spouses authority over their body.
What do you think?”

gengwall,
I think that I like the way you think. 😉

And I like the way you said, “purposely done” because I don’t think it’s humanly possible to quit noticing attractive things about other people – it’s what we do with those split second thoughts.

(Exceptions for situations of mental illness and depression, etc. of course)

“Ga 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek,
there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female:
for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
A.Amos,
This reminds me of something I read yesterday regarding the translation of this verse. The word ‘ou’ translated as ‘neither’ literally means: the absolute negative. As in ‘no.’
There is no Jew nor Greek,
there is no bond nor free,
there is no male nor female