Lin

“And then he lectures you on how you need to be succinct. ”

There is no way to be succint with this issue. There is too much to discuss, learn and allow to be revealed with deep study. It is like a winding path that leads one all the way back to Genesis 1 from 1 Timothy!

Few are willing to go there but every day I am seeing more and more question some of the extra Biblical teachings coming out of CBWM. Most of what they are teaching if taken to it’s logical conclusion is legalism. It has to be. They paint themselves into a corner when too many questions are asked.

I once heard a pastor say that if he preached truth then I was responsible for it. He said that he is ONLY the messenger and had to stick only to the Word. It was MY responsibility to make sure it was truth.

BTW: Are you all serious? The council gives instructions to women on the proper way to give a male directions without teaching him? People don’t see that as legalism?

“The question is whether any of them are calling other people lost or deceived or poor exegetes.”

I agree. I do not believe these particular secondary issues have any bearing on salvation and it grieves me when I see many in the reformed movement say that it does.

“I have come to believe that most leaders/ Pastors want conformity instead of unity, and when conformity is the goal it eventually and effectively stifles the working of the Spirit through the people in the congregation. “

How true! But they always call it unity.

I also believe in election but refuse to refer to myself as a Calvinist. I believe the “C” word divides and makes it harder for people to listen. Besides, we do not follow a man’s doctrine…we follow the teachings of Christ. Ever notice that the Free Will-er’s never call themselves, ‘Arminian’ but that is how the ‘C’s refer to them. :o)

Joe, I suggest you buy Cheryl’s CD series on this before you jump to that conclusion.

Terry wrote: “It is like building a house, the foundation must be built first, and it must be built soundly in order to maintain the rest of the structure.”

Terry, I agree totally. I am wondering if that ‘foundation’ really lies in a true NT understanding of ‘authority’. All authority. Sometimes when I read the NT, I can only wonder what happened to our churches? The church today resembles more of an OT gathering than a NT gathering. Where in the NT is a pulpit? The office of ‘pastor’? Where is the big building? Where is the ‘chain of command’ we see in so many churches?

I see Paul persuading, rebuking and pleading in love, not demanding or giving orders.

We really are to be a Holy Priesthood. All believers are ‘ministers’ in some form.

I have to share this treasure with you all:

Gribble, Florence L., Stranger Than Fiction (Winona Lake, IN: Brethren Missionary Herald Co., 1957)

I recently found the above old book in some boxes of books left behind by my mother when she died. Even though my mom was SBC, I did not find this book out of place because she was so involved in international missions.

This woman’s story is incredible and stranger than fiction! A doctor/missionary to unreached parts of Africa in the early 1900’s she spent most of her life living in tents and suffering from maleria and black fever.

She was raised by unbelievers and put herself through medical school. Yet, she did not shrink from witnessing/preaching to men in the United States and Africa. She went to Africa WITHOUT continual support soley trusting God for her needs. Even down to planning the trip without funds to buy the boat fare which came as a gift at the last minute. She never asked for money, she simply prayed for her needs. The entire story is like this and is such an inspiration. She married on the mission field and I must say, her marriage was more egalitarian than we can imagine. Many times her and her husband separted in duties so they could reach more people. Both teaching and preaching. He died very young in Africa and Florence simply carried on.

The entire book is filled with her sharing her experience of being called. She had many opportunities and offers to do other things but she knew she was called to Africa to minister to both physical and spiritual needs of the people there.

I feel as if I have found an old dusty treasure worth millions.

What if Florence had been told she could not teach or preach to men anywhere? What if she had been taught that she would be in sin?

(By the way, in one instance, in French controlled Africa during the war, Florence was told by the French Administrator she could not witness at all. She told him she could not help but witness and teach. She had to. She was confined to her ‘yard’ around her tent, so she witnessed on the edge of the yard to anyone coming by.)

Cheryl, I listened to a bit of his show and to say that he is rude is an understatement. You probably will not change his mind but there may be some listeners who will be Bereans. I will pray for your wisdom and composure.

Is it me or is this issue becoming more vitriolic in Christendom? As I read from one person recently, it seems the church is more interested in waring with the popular culture than being what it was meant to be.

There is a link to his dad’s blog in the article. I hope everyone will take the time to go and read it. It is excellent.

Don, I went to the CBE link and read the article. I had read some of Giles’ work before. I am stunned at what is being taught about the Trinity out there. How did I miss this? It is almost as if it crept in unaware.

I knew Russell Moore was a staunch complimentarian but had no idea he was teaching Jesus as subordinate in the Trinity as was referenced in the article.

I have not read Systematic Theology by Wayne Grumden. Does anyone know if this is what he is teaching in this book about the Trinity?

“Yes, MacArthur believes that all men are in authority over all women.”

Does McArthur ever cover how this doctrine is played out on Judgement Day for women? Would he believe that women are only Judged for how well they submitted?

“For those of you who wonder if talking on forums can produce paradigm shifts, it can. I’ve been on many forums over the last several years. Not only have I seen people change their views, but I’ve seen wounded individuals find some comfort. ”

This has happened to me, too. I have had onlookers e-mail me. My prayer is that everyone reading will be Bereans and check everything that is taught them them in the pulpit and everywhere.

Genesis 1

26Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…”

Let ‘Us’…? This is the Godhead, right?

This teaching that women receive their knowledge from men only works in a husband/wife or a father/daughter relationship. That brings up another interesting aspect of all of this. What about women who do not marry? And fathers are dead or are widows?

Paul wrote positivly about not marrying to devote yourself to Christ. Was he speaking to both men and women?

And another thing…is McArthur saying that I cannot really understand what I am reading in scripture? Or that the Holy Spirit cannot teach me as I read? I am just trying to understand the long term ramifications of what he is really teaching.

“The strange thing about this type of teaching is that the people most affected are disqualified by the teaching from confronting him, it is a Catch 22. This is a dangerous aspect of this teaching, one should instead desire to hear from God from anyone. The very people who would be most likely to correct him are disqualified from doing so.”

Don, this is so very true. This is even happening to men who try and correct a pastor. They are taking the ‘submit to authority’ scriptures way beyond their true meaning in order to prevent any disagreement. This false teaching is creating little popes in Christendom. They forget the Veil was torn in two on the Cross
and we have no earhtly priests anymore.

I am continually told by many that a woman’s gifts are ‘different’ and are focused on family. Many will use the Titus 2 scripture about an older woman teaching a younger woman to make that point.

kerryn, thanks for you comments…you have given me much to think about. One of my new commands to myself is to be a Berean on everything I am taught!

Oops, here is the link to the other blog:

sbcoutpost

Hello Friends, Here is a quote from another blog by someone I think may be a pastor explaining why creation order means ‘authority’ over women:

“I do not have a lot of space to go into all of the points in Gen 1 and 2. First, Man and woman are created equally in the image of God. Second, remember that Adam was placed in the garden to rule justly and bring all into submission to himself, as he is under God (image). One of the works that Adam does is that he names the animals, which demonstrates his authority and ruling over them. Please do not misunderstand me here, for women are not animals (remember point one). However, when God makes woman out of the man, He brings her to the man, and he names her Woman. The point is that he names her, which is an extension of his authority. So they are one flesh and Eve was Adam’s helper, however, I believe that she submitted to his authority as Paul makes clear in Eph. 5:22ff. Before the Fall, Eve submitted to Adam as the New Creation antitype church submits to Christ. I also believe the the narrative in Gen. 2-3 makes this clear as well.”

See anything wrong with this?

Cheryl, This is the one I have seen most quoted about submission to authority in the church:

Hebrews 13:17

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

1. We do not want to see women usurp authority over men.

I am still confused about how any pastor or teacher has ‘authority’ over anyone. Perhaps I am confused about what that word really means.

What would ‘authority’ have meant in a NT church?

kerryn, I just went and read that…I never noticed that before.

This was very good and indepth. Thanks for the link to study.

Funny, I was just going to ask if perhaps they would say Helen’s presentation was just ‘informational’. But then, that is teaching, right? If a testimony does not teach then what is the point?

You are right…that fine line is hard to balance…and so there are many inconsistencies. The rule book would have to be mightly big.

This all goes back to the wrong teaching on authority in church. What is it about ‘authority’ that has people so confused? For example, If I find my male elder/pastor is a false teacher am I to submit to his authority? No, of course not. So what is this ‘authority’ really all about?

I see where John Piper has Helen Reseveare, a woman missionary, speaking at the Stand Conference. She will be sharing the stage with John McArthur.

Something that is very frustrating to me is that most women pastors that one hears about are very liberal and are false teachers. So, if you even mention that women can teach or preach, you are automatically labeled a liberal. (I don’t even know what that means anymore)

I am a reformed Baptist that believes in the inerrancy of scripture. Inerrancy meaning there is no command that says women cannot teach. Something on these labels would be helpful.

In any event, I would love to delve deep into the structure of the NT church including the priesthood of the believer and what that really means. It seems what we are seeing today is so institutionalized it is unrecognizable from what we see in the NT.

I have to go to the obvious for an explanation on this verse. If the complimentarians are correct, why aren’t the women who hold that view covering right now in church?

This has never made sense to me. Does anyone know what their explanation is for that?

Cheryl, perhaps I am being too simplistic but I do not understand the need to even mention an ‘inheritance’ if He is only talking about salvation. That was not an issue in the OT for women, was it? But it was an issue with man made traditions, right?

So why use the word ‘heirs’ or ‘inheritance’? Seems it would encompass more than salvation alone.

I feel like I keep missing something that everyone else is seeing but I am not.

It seems to be a slippery slope…this Patriarchy. It is felt in many seemingly normative evangelical circles. Such as ‘women can talk in church but not teach’. Or women can teach but only other women and young boys. They can give a testimony but NO teaching. And, so on.

We have to read into the scriptures to come up with these man made rules. Quite frankly, none of it makes sense to me. Why could women prophesy at Pentecost but not speak in church?

The questions are endless.

Welcome home. :o)

I am still going through the DVD’s. I have watched them about 3 times just straight through making notes and now, plan to do a study on my own using some of the tools you recommended. It is one of those things you need to try and see for yourself. I pray the Holy Spirit will teach me.

Grace and Peace.

Cheryl, This may be using faulty reasoning but I have always found this view of men being head over all women…very chaotic and confusing. Which is why I have always had concerns about this teaching. It just does not make sense. God is NOT the author of confusion or chaos.

Think of what this implies. Elders would have authority over the wife as would the husband? Would other men in the church have authority over her, too? Are women to obey all men in the church? Where does this type of teaching end? What if the ‘elder’ is a false teacher? The questions are endless.

Sounds more like woman as ‘child’.

I really do think we are seeing the fruits of some of this chaos/confusion in churches today.

Cherly, I ordered the DVD so that may cut down on many of my questions!