Cheryl Schatz

Mark,
You said:

The reason i pray for my children is because i know that they are sinful. I know that because of their sin they are in rebellion to God and a broken relationship. I know that they can’t fix that, therefore i ask God to show His mercy upon them.

This is the kind of prayer that a non-Calvinist would pray. The problem that I have with it is that it doesn’t match up with the Calvinist world view. If it is true that God determines from eternity past who will and who won’t be saved and that his decisions have nothing to do with any human, and that His decisions are unchangeable as they are set in stone as “elections”, then it doesn’t seem reasonable to pray for the unsaved as if God would do something different than what He had already determined from eternity past.

For example if one of your children was one of the elect, then God will have mercy on them whether you pray or not and certainly your prayers cannot be a reason for their election or else that would be considered synergism by Calvinist definition.

Also if another one of your children was one of the elected as eternally reprobate, God will never answer your prayers on their behalf. And it would seem to be going against God’s will if you would pray for God to do something that He has arbitrarily decided not to do before your child was born.

To answer simply, because we are told to pray and care for people, both saved and unsaved. God has appointed prayer as the means to communicate with Him. He has aslo appointed prayer as the means to to bring his will to come about- we know this from Jesus example.

This seems to me to be a great problem because it would be the Calvinist definition of synergism. After all if we cannot even respond to God through our own faith or else it is defined as synergism, then how on earth can another human responding to God’s call to pray not also be synergism? For surely if our own faith that would move God to save us is called “works” and “synergism” by Calvinists, then the faith and prayers of another human on our behalf should also be called “works” and “synergism”. It is a flaw in Calvinism that makes the system inconsistent and prejudiced.

Now I don’t believe this way myself, so I agree with you that we should pray for our children, but if I was a Calvinist I would want to be a consistent Calvinist, one who followed the system to its logical conclusion. It makes prayer a very inconsistent venture, making it a synergistic event while denying that God can change His mind on election.

To sit back and do nothing (as some calvinists have done before) is not correct- that is not obeying the clear teaching to pray and witness.

I agree that to sit back and do nothing is wrong, but many consistent Calvinists have done just that choosing to follow the logic of the entire system. After all if God has already chosen and no elect will fail to be saved whether anyone prays for them or not, why risk praying for one who is reprobate who cannot be saved, or pray for one who cannot fail to be saved? Prayer is made into a jolly good waste of time – thus the consistent Calvinist will sit by and do nothing.

It is amazing that God uses human agents to fulfill his will.

It is so amazing that the system of Calvinism teaches this synergism while calling non-Calvinists as synergistic and making fun of them as “working” for their salvation. It is an inconsistency that has not been answered successfully by those who embrace the system. Everything has to be relegated to a “mystery” when inconsistency is found. I find this incredibly sad.

Like I said, I must certainly be ordained not to be a Calvinist if that system is true, because its inconsistencies do not show the glory of God.

I apologize for not being able to answer the comments in a timely fashion. There are several issues that have demanded my time including a building project. We are finally building a studio for filming videos and desperately needed office space for our production and printing equipment. Over the next few months we will be faced with many decisions that will determine how far our money stretches and the building crew and disruption of our living space will likely keep me gone for periods of time so I hope that all will have patience as I struggle to keep up. I know that I have several important comments to respond to and I will attend to them over the next couple of days.

Jennifer,
Thanks for the warning. I finally figured that one out too and she should be on my moderation list as one of the only posters I have had to moderate due to an aggressive attitude towards the posters.

Thanks Jennifer.

Hi Jennifer,
I was quite surprised at the attitude that some of these comp women have towards their sisters in Christ. And the Bayly boys are….well…..let’s just say they are not a good example to a Christ-like attitude. Kamilla didn’t stick around long enough to educate me on the Trinity as they had hoped. I wonder why? 😉

Mark, as far as discussing John 6, it would be a discussion in the complete context of the chapter. Context is very important. The last JW I witnessed to was an elder who tried to prove his point by proof-texting. I made him read the chapter before and the chapter after along with the chapter of the quote that he made. By the time we were done reading the three chapters, his point had completely dried up and he knew it. Apparently it was the first time that anyone had made him read the context. I praise God for the truth in context!

Another thing, Mark, that is unsettling is the issue about leaders such as Calvin who brought teaching into the church that has been followed by millions. You said:

Also Kay about judging whether people are saved is not a helpful thing- i’m sure we would both agree on that, even if you diagree with the doctrine of perserverance of the saints.

I think one of the main points that Kay was making is that it would be possible that Calvin was not one of the elect since we cannot know for sure until we get to Heaven. The point that she made had not crossed my mind. If Calvin was not one of the elect, then millions of Christians have followed his teaching and may be in serious error. Calvin taught that one could be deceived by God into believing that they are saved when the faith they have is not saving faith. If this is so, how could anyone know before death that they are of the elect and how many of the “leaders” are teaching error because they are actually wolves in sheep’s clothing? The doctrine lends itself to uncertainty and doubt. One simply cannot have an assurance today.

I praise God that I do not follow a system that leaves me in doubt and worried that I might be deceived by God. I know that God never deceives people into believing that they have a faith in God while they are a false believer. It is the enemy who seeks to kill, steal and destroy. It isn’t God that has this position at times as Calvin taught.

Mark,
You said:

However i pray desperately for my children asking God to be merciful on them as sinners.

Please explain to me how this fits in with the 5 points of Calvinism? You asked me how I prayed for the lost and I told you. But how can a Calvinist pray like this knowing that all were chosen either for election to Heaven or election to Hell and nothing that we can do (or pray!) changes that? So help me to understand why a desperate prayer would have any meaning with the mindset of Calvinism? You haven’t answered this yet and I ask you to enlighten us.

One other quick comment. To allow people to hear the gospel, does the Lord need to remove the blinders or resurrect them according to the passage that you quoted? If he needs to resurrect them to hear the gospel, then no blinders were ever necessary since it would be laughable to put a blind on a dead man. That wouldn’t make the passage make sense at all.

Mark,
I have been working on my next post so I didn’t get a chance to get to your last questions and comments. It is an extremely busy time for me so please have patience with me.

If you are producing your comments in Word and then transferring them onto the blog, that may be why you are getting question marks. The formatting is better if you want to do you work in notepad instead even if you write in Word and then copy and paste to Notepad to remove Word formatting and then copy and paste from Notepad to the blog.

I have time for only one comment this morning. You said:

Finally a vital text

“And even ?if our gospel is veiled, ?it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case ?the god of this world ?has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing ?the light of i?the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ?ourselves as your servants? for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, ? “Let light shine out of darkness,” ?has shone in our hearts to give ?the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:4ff

So tell me why does satan have to “blind” dead people? If they are truly dead and cannot see of their own, why would he have to blind anyone? The fact that he needs to keep them from the gospel shows that without his working to blind them, they would be able to see. That is another great passage that shows that we are sick and blind but not “dead” and unable to respond to God!

Mark,
You said:

No, my point was that good does not equal faith.

Oh my, is that ever baloney. If that was what you were arguing for we wouldn’t have argued for I to believe that good does not equal faith.

Roman 14 says anything not done in faith is sin.

Context, my friend, context. Who does this apply to? It is “anything” not for “anyone”. You can’t just change the words around and make this apply to everyone. It is for Christians who go against their conscience and without faith. That is certainly a sin. You have failed to show from the passage where it refers to unbelievers since no unbeliever can do a single thing in faith. Remember we talked about this?

People of themselves are corrupt and evil (Gen 6:5), any good is becasue of God’s grace to them, but it is still sinful becasue what they do isn’t in faith.

Job wasn’t corrupt and sinful. He listened to God and he feared Him and turned away from evil. This was God’s witness. Why should I believe you when you are taking a text out of the context and disagreeing with what God said about Job?

Sorry, but I will go with God everytime because I am and want to continue to fear God.

Here’s an example- When people build a hospital it is a good thing becasue it helps people etc etc (God’s common grace), however if those poeple who built that hospital do not build it in faith in God, they are sinning. THis is the issue and the nature of our humanity.

Not only is this not what the Scripture says, but let’s play this one out and see where it gets us. We go to those people who are looking to build the hospital and we tell them that they cannot build because they don’t have faith in God. So we go around the world and force everyone to stop doing anything good because we don’t want them to be bigger sinners. So less hospitals, less people helping other people. And this is what God wants?

Here we would say “Give your head a shake!”

Mark,
You said:

Let me make a proposal because there are some real issues here. Why don’t we slow down and actually look at passages exegetically and in context rather than just proof texting.

After all one cannot claim that we can seek God if Romans 3 is correct that none can (unless of course Romans 3 is not as clear as it seems as you suggest)

I have no problem with going through the Scriptures. But the problem that you mainly have is that you want to hold to a view that causes the rest of the Scriptures to contradict Romans 3. Paul is not adding to the Scriptures. If he was how could we be Bereans? The Bereans were more noble because they checked out Paul’s teaching by the OT Scriptures. If Paul contradicted the OT Scriptures like you believe he did, wow, that would make a real problem about whom to believe.

Likewise one cannot say God has ordained some to salvation and others not, if there are passages which contradict that.

God ordains believers to salvation. There isn’t one Scripture where an unbeliever is ordained to salvation. That is why I asked you. And I am still waiting for even one Scripture where the actual ordaining is of an unbeliever to salvation. Go ahead and prove me wrong if you can.

At least maybe this way we will be more faithful to scripture rather than proof texting all the time, and that way we can slow down a bit and actually discuss the bible, not theologies or presupposed ideas.

Well, my friend, I am the one who kept calling you to the context and showing you where it disagreed with your view. You are the one who tried proof texting. But if it will keep you honest, let’s go for it.

Ill leave it up to you. You can even choose the passage if you want. How’s that!

How about John 6?

Mark,
You said:

Cheryl, this is exactly you, because you think it is unfair that God’s ordains all things as you have said before. My guess though is that you have re-interpreted Romans 9 aswell to make it say something it isn’t.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, if God has ordained me to be a non-Calvinist I don’t think it is unfair at all. I am happy and content and I belong to God. Why would I call God unfair to me?

We are told in the bible to make disciples of all nations- to tell all about Jesus. When people reject this they are condemned.

No they are not. They are condemned because God chose them for destruction without any conditions. ‘Apparently He made them to go to hell so it isn’t their rejection of the gospel that sends them there.

We would all be condemned if God by His Spirit did not open our eyes and soften our hearts. By preaching, God’s elect are saved by belief and those who reject the message are condemned.

Actually that isn’t true either. It is according to the Calvinist message that we learn that the elect are that way unconditionally. You can’t now say that their salvation depends on a condition. They were picked unconditionally, remember?

Surely you believe that people are either destined to believe or not, unless of course you hold to some kind of open theology. Even if you are an Arminiam you believe this, because Arminians at least believe in God’s foreknowledge.

Being “destined to believe” is not about God’s foreknowledge. It is about predestination by God’s unconditional election so no I do not believe that people are unconditionally destined to believe.

You said:

Abraham was chosen purely by God’s grace. Moses was chosen purely by God’s grace. So was Isaac, so was Jacob. So was Paul since he was persecuting Christians until God changed him. IT sure wasn’t Paul’s concern for seeking Jesus.

Where does the Bible say that Abraham was chosen purely by God’s grace?

Romans 4:3 (NASB)
3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

It was Abraham’s belief of God that was credited with righteousness. The Bible never says that Abraham’s salvation was only by grace without faith. It was never unconditional.

Moses, Isaac and Jacob were not chosen for salvation. They were chosen for a task. Show me one verse that says that God chose them for salvation unconditionally without faith.

Maybe you can clarify if you at all believe that people are predestined to salvation? Oh I almost forget, it seems Paul thought the Ephesians were predestined to salvation.

I believe in predestination because the Scriptures teach it. But the Scriptures never teach a predestination to salvation of the wicked without the condition of faith. There is a predestination to earthly work but never a predestination to salvation without condition.

Look at John the Baptist. He was predestined to become the fore runner of Christ yet he was not predestined to salvation. He expressed doubt that Jesus was the Messiah.

Luke 7:19 (NASB)
19 Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?”

You answered my question this way:

1. “Do you really? Do you believe that God can change any person if that person is a reprobate that was chosen from eternity past to be lost?
   Yes I do believ God can change any unregenerate person according to his will and purpose as Paul’s says. IF it is not according to God’s will, then no it will not happen. Everything happens according only to God’s will and mercy not our own as Romans 9 states.

Did you read my question? I asked if God can change a person who has been predestined from eternity past to be lost. Are you saying that God predestines someone unconditionally be lost and then later he conditionally changes that so that they can no longer be lost even when He had decreed them to be lost? That seems awfully weird. Are you sure that you believe that God can contradict Himself?

Ok I see. So you only ask God to ‘create events’ that will bring these people into a certain position. So you ask God for an opportunity to say something, but you don’t actually ask God to open your friends eyes right?

Sure I ask for God to open my friend’s eyes. Remember that the Bible doesn’t call this being “born again”. It is an opening of the eyes so that they can see their condition but it is not bring a dead person to life as a “born again” person. So yes, I regularly pray this way and I am expecting that God will answer yes, because it is His will to save. Unfortunately many whose eyes have been opened by God will refuse to believe by the act of their will. They reject Him with their eyes wide open to the truth.

Final point, I have said and shown you from the bible why I believe God loves all people. Please don’t insistently keep saying God loves some more than others. You are hardly being fair to people who disagree with you. Don’t distort people’s views who disagree with you.

If you follow Calvinism, I know what you believe about love. You believe that God loves all, but He has no saving love for those whom He has predestined to be lost. So while I can preach the gospel and tell all that God loves them and desires that they would be saved, you would not be able to preach that and assure them that Jesus died for their sins. If you actually believed that God loves all in a saving way, you would not be a Calvinist, so I don’t know how you can say I misrepresented you. Point blank – do you believe that God loves all with a saving love?

Mark,
You said:

So you are expecting God to open the eyes of unbelievers, you no longer are saying that it is their own strength which saves them.

I have never said that a sinner’s own strength saves them. Why can’t you see that? Don’t you realize that salvation is a miracle? Don’t you see that we are incapable of creating that miracle? Don’t you see that God alone can cause the miracle of the new birth, that He alone can put His seed in us and that He alone saves us. It is not of ourselves. It is 100% of God.

Mark,
You said:

You are importing foreign ideas into Eph 2. Pauls interest is between being dead in sins, and alive in Christ, not sick and healthy.

Is Paul contradicting Jesus? Jesus calls them sick. And His words are recorded twice. Where is a second witness that sinners are “dead” and in need of a resurrection?

Also notice the last contrast of JEsus- he did not come for the righteous but the sinners. It is clear that healthy= righteous, and sick=sinners in Jesus account. You are completely distorting both passages.

Yes, that is what I just said. Sinners are sick. They need to be made well, they don’t need to be resurrected. Sinners indeed are sick and Paul is not contradicting Jesus.

Mark,
I should have read a little further for your answer.

You said:

Jesus uses the term ‘sick’ because he is contrasting wiht the ‘healthy’.

But Jesus also uses the term healthy to refer to the saved and “sick” to refer to the unsaved.

Mark 2:17 (NASB)
17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Look carefully at the above verse. Who is Jesus calling “sick”? It is the righteous or the sinners?

Here is another quote:

Luke 5:31–32 (NASB)
31 And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
32 “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Are the righteous ones the well ones? Are the sinners the sick ones? Is it the sick ones that he is calling to repentance?

Mark,
You said:

It is irrelevant if people can do good things because this has nothing to do with salvation which Eph 2 is talking about. IN terms of our nature and relationship to God, becasue of our sin we are Dead, not just sick.

Sorry, my friend, you said that Eph 2 proves that the unregenerate are dead in sin and this means that they cannot seek for God and cannot do good. Now that your understanding has been challenged and proven wrong, you want to change the challenge.

And why did Jesus refer to sinful men as sick? Would you be making fun of him for doing so? How do you deal with the passages where Jesus talks about sinful men as sick?

Mark,
You said:

Do those people who do ‘good’ things get them in a right relationship with God? No of course not.

We are talking about an ability to come to God and recieve salvation. In terms of our nature and sin we are dead. This is precisely what Eph 2 is talking about, not about doing good things, so i actually think it is ou who does not understand the passage.

We have not been talking about doing good deeds to get saved. We have been discussing whether an unregenerate person can do good things. We are talking about an inability to do good, an inability to seek God and an inability to fear God without being born again. I have shown you verse after verse where those who have not yet been born again fear Him, seek for Him, and even those who are evil and do not seek for God can do good. That is the issue and you have failed to prove your point from the Scriptures.

When you became a Calvinist did you actually study this issue using an alternative view from the Scriptures or did you only receive influence from Calvinists? Have you read any books refuting Calvinism or dialogged with those who are not Calvinists in a respectful and passionate way before you became a Calvinist or did you just follow the path without any serious opposition?

Mark,
You said:

You also need to keep in mind that the early chapters of Acts is when the message was spreading amongst the Jews. They already knew Yahweh adn his covenants. THis is not the same situation as Joe Blow down the street who has never heard about 1st century Judaism or Jesus Christ.

We are once again talking about a person being a God-fearer before they are saved. Yet you say that one cannot seek God before one is “born again”. Does God say that those who fear Him will be brought to the covenant or does He say that He will take those who hate Him and drop something into them that makes them automatically fear Him? Is it a gift from God or is it a response from man?

Mark,
You said:

THis was the description for those who converted to Judaism but would not get circumcised. This was not a requirement for him to be saved. He was already a partaker in the Judaism of the day.

Again you bypass the fact that this one was a God-fearer before he was saved. This fact doesn’t fit with Calvinism.

Mark,
You said:

I don’t disagree with any of your scriptures. I agree that we are to fear God. I agree that people fear God. Where i disagree is that we can do this before we are saved or before the supernatural help of the Spirit.

Show me a Scripture that says that one cannot fear God before they are saved.

Let me show you a Scripture that showed that people did fear God before they were saved.

Acts 10:1–2 (NASB95)
Cornelius’s Vision
1 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort,
2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Are you going to say that this Gentile who fear God was already saved? If there is even one example of one who feared God before they were saved then the doctrine that no one can fear God until they were saved is false.

This is the issue. None of your scriptures say anything about people having to be God fearers before they come to God. Cornelius was a god fearer as a member of the Old covenant.

Cornelius was a Gentile. How was he a member of the Old covenant? And I didn’t say that people have to fear God before He calls them, but I did say that those who feared God were brought to Jesus and the new covenant. When they feared God and were taught by Him, they belonged to the Father. Which God haters belonged to the Father?

It seems to me that you are making all people into one category when God has said that there are differences.

Malachi 3:17-18 (NASB95)
17 “They will be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.

This is the passage that talks about those who fear God and that God promises to bring them to His covenant. God said that there is a distinguishing between these two kinds of people (the God-fearers and the God-haters) and you say they are all the same. Seems to me that you contradict the Word quite a lot.

Mark,
You said:

But this does not negate the need for evangelism, it actually encourages it. If I did not believe that it was God who changed people then I would feel immense pressure on what I did.

Well you are relying on God but you have no idea whether he will change that person or not because you have no idea whether God loves them or not. I have a freedom to know for sure that God loves everyone and wants all to come to repentance. And I know that God is willing to draw them and that He will help me to say what needs to be said to make their heart condition clear.

I don’t feel an immense pressure at all. I feel like it is a privilege and I know that the work that I do is not offending God by praying for them and studying to show myself approved unto God as a workman for their benefit. But you may be offending God by working hard at evangelizing someone who has been specifically chosen to go to hell. How does God feel about your work and how does He feel when He cannot help you to share God’s love with that man since God doesn’t love him? It seems like I am the one who has complete freedom knowing that I am doing God’s will and not fighting against it by praying for someone who God doesn’t love.

Did I say it right? Was I good enough, clear enough? This is the difference between a Calvinist and Arminian- who they rely on to change people.

Perhaps yo9u were relying on yourself to change people you were not a Calvinist, but I have the freedom to give my best and know that God is able to take my mistakes and use them for His glory. Even our mistakes can be used to win the lost. I do not worry, I do evangelism for God’s glory and then I leave Him with the results and praise Him for what He alone can do.

Mark,
You said:

God’s uses the faithful proclamation of His salvation to draw his people to himself. There is a great difference between us. See I believe in the power of grace and the power of God. I believe that God can change any person.

Do you really? Do you believe that God can change any person if that person is a reprobate that was chosen from eternity past to be lost?

I do not just sit back and pray to God as an abstract figure, who will or cannot change the hard hearts of people.

It would be wrong to think that non-Calvinists believe that we are praying to God as an “abstract figure” or that God cannot change a person by creating events that will bring them face to face with their sin and God’s judgment. Paul had a change from an outside event on the road to Emmaeus. God did not push a button to create a new heart in Paul without Paul’s will desiring that. He created an event that caught Paul’s attention and made Paul fall down before God in submission.

Yes I believe that God has predestined some to salvation and not others- the bible teaches that.

Name me one person that the Bible says was predestined to salvation.

Mark,
You said:

The fact is no-one knows who God’s chosen people are except God. That is why we preach the gospel to every single person we meet.

And God has no way to direct you to the elect and to stay away from the reprobate? Why would He be interested in you preaching the gospel to anyone who has not been picked by Him?

Yet throughout Scripture we see God specifically sending His prophets to people who He knew would be lost. It is a godly thing to preach even to those who would harden their own hearts, but what good comes out of sending prophets to preach to those whom God predestined to be lost?

Mark,

Maybe it will be helpful to also remember how Jesus taught us to pray- that God’s will will be done, not ours.

This has always caused me confusion too with Calvinists. How can you pray for God’s will to be done if God’s will cannot not be done? This would only work if God’s will may not be done if men stiffen their necks to his work. I have no idea how you think that a prayer like this would make sense to a Calvinist who believes that all things are preordained from the beginning. How is your prayer going to change that?

Mark,
You said:

This made me laugh! Maybe you should read again Romans 9 when Paul expects these responses.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?

Nope, you are wrong. This isn’t me. I am very happy that God made me like this and I do not see this as an injustice on God’s part.

Mark,
You said:
IF we were just sick, then sure we might have the ability to do it ourselves.

Jesus said that the sick need a physician. They cannot heal themselves.

Mark,
You said:

If we are dead we need to be made alive and only God can do that.

If we are “dead” then we need a resurrection not a rebirth. Those who are sick need to have a new heart that is cleansed, not resurrected.

Mark,
You said:

Spiritually we are dead, seperated from God as were Adam and Eve after the fall. We are in broken relationship with God. Our ‘free-will’ therefore is also dead. It no longer seeks after the right thing.

The Bible never says that our “free-will” is dead. This is something that is added to the text by the reasoning of Calvinists. The fact that those who are evil can do good things proves that their free will to chose what is right is not “dead”. If it was completely dead, they could not ever do anything that is good. But Jesus’ teaching on this is plain and when people contradict His word, they go off into definitions that are not Biblical.

It loves darkness, it loves sin. This is where the difference lies. Calvinist take Eph 2 seriously- we are dead in sins.

Calvinists misunderstand Ephesians 2 by saying that an unregenerate “dead” man cannot do good. If their foundation of understanding what it means to be “dead” in sins is flawed, the entire doctrine and its results will be flawed. You need to deal with what Jesus said and make that a part of the picture and quit denying that those who are unregenerate can do good things.

Cheryl’s view makes us just sick not dead.

Jesus said that He came for those who are sick. Where does He say that He came for those who are “dead”? Notice that Jesus calls sinners as “sick”.

Mark 2:17 (NASB)
17 And hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”>

Mark,
Again I think you failed to understand me. I said that those who were God-fearers belonged to the Father and He gave them to Jesus. Those who will be saved are those who listen to God and learn from Him. Those who refuse to listen and learn have no fear of God in them.

I notice that you seem to ignore all the Scriptures I gave about God’s promises to those who would fear God. Is it because you believe that God brings those who hate God and who have disobeyed Him, to Jesus?