Kay,
The Calvinists “inability” to understand that even though we are fallen people, we still have a measure of free will is puzzling to me. If all was predestined, then there is no ability to do anything that is truly “free” of the man since we have been preprogrammed to do what God wants. The ones programmed for salvation will respond when the right button is pushed (the Calvinist “born again” button) and the unregenerate or reprobate will respond exactly how God preprogrammed that person to respond. It is like a no-brainer. If I am predestined not to be a Calvinist, because God predestined everything, then why try to convert me? Wouldn’t that be going against God’s predestination? And wouldn’t there be no hope of conversion if God had predestined me not to be a Calvinist?

I really ponder how Calvinists can not just throw up their hands and do nothing. After all what is, is what God planned and if God wants you to do something He will push a button and you will respond. Why try and fight against what is a set-in-stone issue by God’s own decree?

It is really, really puzzling to me.

Mark,
You said:

The difference between us is you think people can accept the message of salvation while dead in sin. You base this on the fact that Jesus told the pharisee’s that they did ‘good’ things.

No. I believe that evil people can do “good” because Jesus said so. I believe that unregenerate people can believe the gospel because God commanded them to believe and then Jesus reasoned with one who was unregenerate. Jesus didn’t say to Nicodemus that you must be “resurrected” to see the kingdom of heaven. He said that you must be “born again”. Jesus was giving him reason to believe. Jesus did not say that He had just resurrected him and had just given him a clean heart so that he could believe. That is foreign to the text.

Isaiah 1:18 (NASB)
“Let Us Reason”
18 “Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.

God always reasons with unbelievers. But this would be completely useless if they had to be resurrected before they could hear.

God reasoned with Nicodemus and He reasons with us. He gives us a reason to believe and when we do believe He cleanses our heart. But for the Calvinist way of thinking an unregenerate person cannot be reasoned with because they are unreachable because “dead” means they cannot seek for God and they cannot hear God.

I do not think people can accept the message while dead in sins.

But the Scripture doesn’t say this and we see God both in the OT and Jesus in the NT reasoning with the unregenerate. This would make God very unwise and unreasonable if unregenerate people cannot hear and accept the message. I want to rely on what the Scripture actually says not what I think the process should be. I want to give God the glory for working hard to reach the unregenerate.

They need the work of the Spirit to open their eyes to the message.

Yes, indeed, this is what I have been saying all along. But they do not need to be born again before they can respond and see.

Although the pharisee’s did ‘good’ things that has nothing to do with salvation. Any ‘good’ in this world is the common grace of God poured out on believers and non-believers, but this does not mean that they can seek or find God while still dead in sin.

I didn’t say that the good things would save them. But you said that unbelievers couldn’t do any good. I showed you how this is not true in the Scriptures.

Common grace is indeed given to all. And that common grace is all that is needed for God to allow an unregenerate person to seek Him. In fact only the unregenerate can “seek” God. Once a person is regenerate they have “found” God and they are in His family. The seekers are always the unregenerate.

From what i can tell you believe unregenrate man has the ability to seek God. I do not. I believe only regenerate man has the ability to seek God.

Another problem that you have is that only the unregenerate are told to seek for God. The regenerate are told to live by the Spirit. They are not told to seek God because He is already within them. Don’t you see that? Only one who is not filled with God’s Spirit will need to “seek” Him. How can the regenerate be “seekers” when they are God’s family?

This seems to be our difference. When regeneration occurs! (and perhaps what regeneration means)

Yes, indeed this is one of the differences between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. I just don’t understand how you can believe that God causes one to be “born again” and put His seed within them and they are given a new heart that has been cleansed from sin and yet they are not saved. I have never seen God put His seed into a person without that person being a child of God. And no child of God is an unsaved person. Your inability to see that totally confounds me. I didn’t need a man’s book to show that to me. The Holy Scriptures speak volumes about salvation.

Cheryl, i would love to talk more with you about Job and other OT saints. I think that is a very important point. Can you answer a few brief questions relating to Job- why was he righteous? Or what do you believe made God call him righteous? Was it because he feared God?

I will answer your question from the Scriptures for they alone have the answers.

Proverbs 1:28–30 (NASB)
28 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
30 “They would not accept my counsel,
They spurned all my reproof.

Job was a person who did not hate knowledge. He accepted God’s counsel and did not spurn God’s reproof. He chose the fear of the LORD because of the knowledge that God gave.

Psalm 25:12 (NASB)
12 Who is the man who fears the LORD?
He will instruct him in the way he should choose.

When we respond to God with the fear of the Lord, He promises to instruct us in the way that we should choose. We are given both the opportunity and the requirement to choose God’s way.

Job 1:1 (NASB)
Job’s Character and Wealth
1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Job 1:8 (NASB)
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

Job chose to fear God because it was a choice given him. He feared God and turned away from evil as God gave Him instructions on how he should live.

Are you saying that God bringing people to salvation or the new covenant is dependent upon them first fearing Him?

I am saying that according to the passage of John 6 that we were discussing the ones that were brought to Jesus, those ones, were those who feared God and had been taught by Him.

John 6:45 (NASB)
45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 (NASB95)
9 Now as to the love of the brethren, you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

All who feared God and chose to hear and learn from the Father were all brought to Jesus and thousands of them got saved in one day.

Acts 2:5 (NASB)
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

These devout people were the God-fearers.

John 9:31 (NASB)
31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

Acts 10:2 (NASB)
2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.

Acts 17:4 (NASB)
4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women.

The ones who feared God were open to hearing His word.

Acts 2:37–38 (NASB)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41 (NASB)
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

These ones who were lead to Christ were already God-fearing people and they readily accepted and heard the Word.

Mark,
You said:

No one will be born again yet reject salvation. Anyone who is born again is given a new heart.

This is another problem area for you. The new heart that is given is one that has been cleansed from sin. How is a person who has a clean heart not saved?

Psalm 51:10 (NASB)
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Acts 15:9 (NASB)
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

When we are given that new heart from God, that heart is cleansed of our sin and it always comes by faith and it always means salvation has come. It is completely baffling to me with the amount of teaching in Scripture about the new birth and the new heart that one could claim that the person is not saved who has that new cleansed heart. But for some reason the “system” of Calvinism doesn’t work without the denial that this is the work of God saving us. It has to be denied. For me, I would rather just believe God’s word that the new birth and the new cleansed heart is God’s work of salvation just as it says.

their eyes are open, they accept Jesus as saviour and Lord. I think we would agree on that, and i equally agree with the passages you quoted from Peter- i’m not denying any of that.

The problem is that you are actually denying it. You have to deny that the moment that the person is “born again” and has been given a “new heart” that is cleansed from sin, they are not saved. They will be saved at some point, according to Calvinism, but at that miraculous moment they are not saved. Rather than give God glory for the saving work that He alone does in our heart, Calvinism forces one to deny that this is a saving work of God. I am talking about the right now act of the new heart. You say it leads to salvation, but the Scriptures don’t ever say that. You have to read it into the passage, but I don’t even understand how you can do that. Give God the glory for what He has done. His cleansing work of providing new birth and a new heart cleansed from sin is the act of salvation. I will never deny God the glory of His act.

Now where does it say that a new heart is not yet salvation? Why would God need to give further gifts to save a person when a heart cleansed of its sin has no ability to be reprobate?

I will carry on in the next comment.

Mark,
You said:

Just a quick point to help you understand what i mean. I am not saying that those who are born again do not receive salvation and eternal life. Being born again is part of the process of salvation.

Mark, I think that you need to be completely forthright and admit that the Calvinist belief is that at the moment that one is “born again” that person is not saved. They are still unregenerate and still one of the reprobate until they believe. There is no “process” of salvation such that they are partly saved and partly regenerated and partly not a reprobate when they are “born again”. They are still fully unsaved at that point. The teaching is that being “born again” only makes them able to be saved by making them able to hear the gospel message.

One of the problems that I have with Calvinism is that its followers have a hard time actually admitting to the hard teaching of Calvinism to those who are not Calvinists. They system is complicated and this is why so many tell non-Calvinists to go and read chapters of Calvin’s work instead of taking them into the Scriptures and showing the person what Calvinism is clearly and distinctly from the Scripture. Why is that?

Now are far as how we pray, we ask God to do His work to save a person. A person has enough evidence of the Creator to seek for Him but many do not do that until God intervenes in a more direct way in their lives. We ask for Him to do that for our loved ones and those whom we desire to see saved.

But it is a complete mystery to me why Calvinists would even pray for someone’s salvation. After all they are taught that God has already picked out the elect from the foundation of the world so no prayer to God would ever change that. If the one you are praying for is one of the elect your prayer is unnecessary. If the one that you are praying for is not one of the elect, your prayer is useless. Do you ever think about this when you pray?

Mark,
You said:

Why stop at verse 27 Cheryl…let’s keep going
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,…

Surely you and I have both coveted, surely we have both been slanderers and gossips and boastful etc. This is the nature of humanity not just one specific group.

This is not the nature of all humanity. The verses above say that they were “filled” with… The Greek term means to be filled up, completely full, come to completion.

Is this a description of Job? Was God a hater of God? God said that he was righteous and turned away from evil. Job was not one filled up with evil but one who turned away. The verses are a description of those who know the truth and turn away from it.

Romans 1:32 (NASB)
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

The context the passage proves that these are the haters of God and ones who will not turn to God. It is not a description of those who fear God. There are two kinds of humanity, not one. Job was a God fearer and there are many more like him.

I can’t show you that Cornelius was born again- I don’t deny that. But not every conversion in the bible says ‘and they were born again before they believed’. We don’t always have every detail for every occasion.

I am glad that you admit the failure of Scripture to show even one case where a person was “born again” before they came to faith. Cornelius would have been an excellent case since he was one who feared God. He was one of those who belonged to the Father and the Father promised those who fear Him, that He would bring them to the covenant. This is fulfilled in Jesus. Cornelius had a vision that prompted him to ask for Peter to come because Cornelius was not a God hater, but one who belonged to the Father as a God fearing man.

The problem is though to say that we don’t need to be born again contradicts Jn 3, and contradictions are not acceptable.

We need to be born again because even fearing God is not good enough. We have to have a miracle that removes our sin and makes us clean. It is the new birth that washes us clean.

You have swept it away be changing what born again means and what the kingdom is.

I haven’t changed what born again means as I have used the Scriptures to define it for itself. There is no Scripture that says that being “born again” is merely a dead man coming to life but without eternal life within him. Born again means a washing away of our sin through the miracle of regeneration.

Perhaps you would like to revisit the Scriptures to find one that describes a born again man as one who is without eternal life and needing something else.

That’s all I can do for tonight. It has been a full day for me. Will try to get through the questions again tomorrow. And I also have a new post I need to finish.

Thanks Mark for continuing the lively conversation.

Gazza,
You said:

We now can choose what is truly good – the roast dinner and we will choose it every time because in Christ it is now our nature to want the roast dinner.

You are right in that it is now our nature to want to do good (eat the roast dinner), however we still have the old nature hanging around and we unfortunately do choose it so that we do not choose the good dinner everytime. Even born again Christians are susceptible to sin.

In both cases a free choice was made.

Yes, a choice was made and in both cases we can make both choices, but the one who is the seed of God does not practice sin and the one who is the seed of Adam practices sin although he can do good too, his natural inclination is toward what is not good.

But while ever we are bound by our sin nature we are not able to choose the roast – we simply don’t want it. Once our eyes are opened we are unable to choose the rotting carcus – its very nature is revolting to us.

While this sounds like a good analogy, it doesn’t fit the Biblical picture for Jesus said that even the evil people can choose to do good to those who they desire to give of their best. They can give of their best to their children. And at times we who are have been born again will desire the rotting carcass because the old nature pulls us. Our way of life will be continually on the road of life, living by the Spirit’s power even if we do slip up, He gives us aid.

I believe that this analogy helps as it shows that it is both our free choice to follow Christ and that we would never have been able to make that choice if God hadn’t of first altered our nature and shown us what we were really choosing.

The problem with this analogy is that it comes across as a works based salvation while we are saved by faith, not by doing good.

This stance can be defended from and its conception was based in scripture, indeed it is a balance of biblical truths of free will and divine grace but I am travelling this weekend so will be unable to elaborate further until next week.

I would be happy to see your biblical proof of a “new birth” that has no eternal life, no God’s see and no salvation until later. Honestly, I haven’t seen that in the Scriptures.

Have a wonderful travelling time!

Hi Gazza,
I am happy that you have found this topic to be of great interest to you. It is good to know that others are reading and following along. It has been a lively discussion and yes, it has had long comments. I need to figure out how to get them shorter, eh? 😉

I am going to answer your comment before I return to Mark since it is good to have some variety, and you certainly brought that by your analogy.

Let’s interact with your analogy. You said:

In my analogy lets put a rotten carcus and a roast dinner side by side. In our sin nature we are like a vulture – we will choose to eat the rotten carcus.

Would you allow me to change things a bit? I would say that in our sin nature, we naturally are drawn toward the rotten carcass as the rotten carcass stands for sin. But even with our sin nature we are not incapable of eating a roast dinner (with the roast dinner being doing good things). We can eat roast dinner with our family and we can treat them with love and respect, but even with the roast in our bellies, we still find ourselves drawn to that stinky carcass because it pulls at our inner desires.

Our choice is made not because we don’t have access to a roast dinner – it is right beside the carcus but because we actually prefer the carcus – in our sin nature the carcus honestly seems like the right choice, the best choice.

Here I would like to bring a bit of change too. We choose the stinky carcass not because it seems like the right choice, but because we just want to choose it. After all we have been given a gift from God called our conscience and our conscience tells us that the stinky carcass is the wrong thing to eat. It is not the best choice, but the choice that we crave despite our conscience telling us something different.

It is the choice we will always make as it is our nature to actually prefer the carcus over the roast just as the vulture does.

It isn’t the choice that we will always make because Jesus said that we are capable of choosing the roast, but it is a choice that if we are honest with ourselves, that we would choose if no one was watching and we would not have to suffer any bad consequences like stomach pains or someone watching us shamefully eating the bad meat.

Once God opens our eyes (Mark refers to this as being born again from my understanding) we see the carcus and the roast for what they are.

But if this is what our eyes are open to, then God has made the conscience to be of no use at all. No, I don’t think that being “born again” is opening our eyes to the stink of the carcass. We already innately know about the stink because of God’s gift of a conscience.

What we need is for God to reveal our shame. It is like we have been privately gorging on the bad meat without anyone knowing and then the curtain we are hiding behind is pulled back and our shame is exposed. It is then that we see that we have a need for the Savior because of the light that shines in our darkness.

But is the exposing of our sin the same thing as being born again? I don’t see how it can be for God has defined the “born again” experience as a new birth with the “seed” of God and the life it brings is eternal life not temporary life.

Peter talks about our being born again as coming from the imperishable seed within us.

1 Peter 1:23 (NASB)
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

If we are given an “imperishable seed” at our rebirth, how can this new life be less than eternal life?

Peter also tells us that the new birth is tied to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

1 Peter 1:3 (NASB)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

If the new birth is tied to Jesus’ resurrection, how can it anything less than eternal life?

The new birth is also called “new creation”:

Galatians 6:15 (NASB)
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

The new creation is a miracle, not just a new way to look at things. It is literally becoming a brand new creation and it means that one is now “in Christ”.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB)
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

When we are made alive in Christ, it is our salvation.

Ephesians 2:5–6 (NASB)
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Never does the Bible say that the new birth is a time without Christ or without eternal life or without salvation. It is always attached to salvation, God’s “seed” (being a child of God), eternal life and grace.

If the new birth is not becoming a child of God through His seed, then when does one become a child of God through what other seed?

Why would God use words for new life and words that make us an heir of God by His seed if at our new birth there is no eternal life, no inheritance, no seed of God within us? Did God use there metaphors to confuse us about when we inherit eternal life? What other miraculous event happens after the miracle of the new birth that would make us an heir of God?

The new birth is called the “washing” and “renewing of the Holy Spirit”. Titus 3:5 attaches this new birth to salvation.

Titus 3:4–6 (NET)
3:4 But “when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, 3:5 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 3:6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior.

Why is there a need for a subsequent miracle that would bring us into the family of God and save us when the “new birth” is already attached to salvation?

The new birth shown in 1 Peter 1:3-5 is a new birth “into” a living hope and “into” an imperishable inheritance reserved in heaven. What else can God do to tell us that the “new birth” is our miracle that is salvation?

1 Peter 1:3–5 (NET)
1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1:4 that is, into an inheritance imperishable, undefiled, and unfading. It is reserved in heaven for you, 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Mark,
You said:

“Where does the Bible say that Cornelius was born again before he heard the gospel?”

You can’t keep copping out and saying everything is human tradition Cheryl, it’s hardly convincing. Now about Cornelius, did God do something before he accepted the message of salvation from Peter? Did he have a vision, did he see an angel of God? Did he not experience all this before he heard the gospel. Yes he did. This is God working before the message of Jesus was even preached. This is the issue.

No it isn’t the issue. We agree that for a person to come to faith in Christ, God has to work in their life. But where we don’t agree is that you say that the miracle of the new birth happens before one comes to faith in Christ. I asked you to show this miracle of the new birth that happened to Cornelius before he heard the gospel message. Seeing an angel of God hardly qualifies. The miracle of the new birth is the seed of God born in us. Where is that in the text? Please show it to me?

Does God intervene in people’s lives before they hear the message so that they may believe. According to Acts 10 yes, aswell as the rest of the New Testament. Although the words ‘born again’ are not used here by Luke does not mean that God did not work in Cornelius before he accepted the message.

Again, you are confusing God’s work in drawing a person with the experience of the new birth. Of course the text doesn’t say that Cornelius was born again before he heard the message because the new birth cannot happen before a person believes.

The kingdom of God is twofold Cheryl. It came in Jesus, but it is still yet to come until the final consummation. This is the now/not yet tension. I would have thought you would have learnt that in your studies.

My friend, you are mistaken. The kingdom is not twofold. The kingdom will come in “that day” of the Lord. Rather the king came, not the kingdom. Jesus is very clear about that. He told Pilate that he is king, but he also said that his kingdom was not of this world. No two fold kingdom at all. Just a coming kingdom and a present reigning King.

So we enter the kingdom of God when we are saved into Jesus name, but we are still waiting to enter it entirely when we go to eternity.

We enter the kingdom of God only through Jesus. Paul makes this clear. We are “in” Christ. We are buried with him in his death and made alive with Him. And we are “seated” in the heavenlies with him. So our are only in the kingdom now because the King is in heaven and we are His body. But physically on this earth, we have yet to enter the kingdom. It is consistently a future event.

Ephesians 2:6 (NASB)
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

We are indeed in the heavenly kingdom now — spiritually because our “head” is there and we are indeed “in” Him.

You have not dealt with John 3 at all. John 3 is clear that we are to be born again BEFORE we see or enter the kingdom of heaven. How can this be if it is after salvation?

I have consistently dealt with this passage showing that entering into the kingdom is future. But let me add one thing. If God had wanted this passage to say that we must be born again before we can be given the gift of faith and before we can be saved, He could easily have said that. He would not have had to mention a word about heaven for our salvation starts here.

John 3:3 Hypothetical Calvinist edition
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you (Nicodemus, an regenerate man), unless one (including you Nicodemus) is miraculously born again first while they are still in the state of being an unregenerate reprobate man, he cannot be given the gift of faith and be saved.”

But here is a big problem for you, according to your belief, being born again is not equal to being saved. So when the person is “born again” they are still unregenerate and unsaved. The next thing that happens is that God gifts this unrepentant person who is still not regenerated with the gift of faith. That means that God gives His gift of faith to an unbeliever and a reprobate man. They don’t have to believe God. They don’t even have to love God and they won’t because they are not regenerated through salvation. They are merely “born again”. So God puts His seed into this unbeliever and then He puts a gift of faith into the unbeliever and miraculously they are saved by God’s believing for them and God repenting for them???

Okay that is all I could get to today. Not sure when I can finish. I have lots of other work to get to. And it is tax season. Oh joy!

Mark,
You said:

I’m quite astonished really. What makes Noah righteous? His own free-will? No I don’t think so. Was it not his faith?
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Noah was righteous in the same way that Job was. His faith made him righteous and his actions lined up with his faith.

Job 1:1 (NASB)
1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Job 1:8 (NASB)
8 The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”

Job as well as Noah had faith in God and feared God by turning away from evil.

You see, it was his faith that made him righteous.

But this faith was his response to God not a “gift” from God. Mark, let me ask you, is the fear of God a “gift” too?

Gen 6:5 can be taken to mean everyone-it should. We are all by nature corrupt and evil. It is only faith in God which makes us righteous.

Sorry, but it cannot mean everyone because one cannot have faith in God and fear God and act in a corrupt and evil manner. If this is universal, then please show me where Job acted in a corrupt and evil manner.

This whole idea that humanity are essentially good people is non-sense.

I too believe this is nonsense. But it is equally nonsense that unbelievers cannot do good deeds. We are not in bondage to the point that we cannot do good. If Jesus said that the evil Pharisees can do good deeds, then I chose to believe Jesus.

“Um, where does the Bible say that we need a new heart in order to seek after God?”
Here is one passage
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

This passage is not talking “seeking” God. It is talking about having a relationship with God and obeying Him. Those who seek God have not yet found Him. So do you actually have a passage that says that man must have a new heart before he can seek God?

I can’t see your point in referencing Deut because it actually proves my point. In Deut 10 God calls on the people to circumcise their hearts, but they can’t by themselves.They don’t actually do it. Deut 30 (if you actually looked at the context) is a prophetic word about what is going to happen after the exile. It will be God who does the circumcision of the heart.

Circumcising of the heart is a two act process. The first part is man’s repentance and the passage shows this:

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NASB)
16 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

Notice that God links their circumcision to no longer “stiffening” of their neck? This circumcision is repentance and turning toward God. It is then that God does the inward circumcision and actually removes their sin. Repentance and the removal of sin always go together. God cannot repent for us and so repentance is our obligation. We cannot remove our sin so this is God’s obligation to remove the barriers to fellowship with Him.

This is the new covenant. See Jer 31:31ff also. So you have just proven my point. We can’t give ourselves a heart of flesh, only God can and only God does with the new covenant.

You are right in that we can’t give ourselves a heart of flesh, but we can and must circumcise our hearts no longer stubbornly stiffening our necks towards God. When we repent, God is able and willing to give us that new heart. God never gives a new heart to unrepentant people for He cannot repent for us.

“There is nothing at all in the Scriptures that I have seen that says God must give us a new heart before we can seek Him.”

Look more at the context of Deut as a whole. Look at the failure of the Jews to keep the covenant in their own strength. Look at Jeremiah 31, Ezekial 11, and also Ezekial 36.

Mark, you are failing to even understand my statement. I am not talking about keeping God’s law. I am talking about “seeking” God. I asked you where the Scriptures say that we must have a new heart before we can even seek God. You not addressed this and you are making seeking God as the same thing as obeying God’s law. It is not the same.

Hi Greg,
I didn’t remember that you were a Lutheran. What kind words you said on my behalf. Thank you!

Indeed it seems that there are spiritual leaders whose main purpose in life is to keep people away from the kingdom of heaven. I find this incredibly sad.

How did they do this? I will quote a couple of good commentaries on the sad state of the leadership of God’s people at the time of Christ:

How did they “shut up the kingdom”? (v. 13) First, by refusing to receive the message of John the Baptist (21:25–27; 11:16–19). Second, by refusing to acknowledge Christ Himself (John 7:47ff). Third, by keeping the true meaning of the Scriptures from the people (Luke 11:52). By hiding “the key of knowledge” (Christ as seen in the Scriptures) behind their man-made traditions, the scribes and Pharisees actually locked the door to the kingdom of heaven! How tragic when “religious leaders” today shut people out of heaven by rejecting Christ, resisting His Spirit, and refusing to preach and teach His Word.
Wiersbe, W. W. (1997). Wiersbe’s expository outlines on the New Testament (pgs 83–84).

13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men—Here they are charged with shutting heaven against men: in Lu 11:52 they are charged with what was worse, taking away the key—“the key of knowledge”—which means, not the key to open knowledge, but knowledge as the only key to open heaven. A right knowledge of God’s revealed word is eternal life, as our Lord says (Jn 17:3; 5:39); but this they took away from the people, substituting for it their wretched traditions.
    A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Mt 23:13).

Hey Sheryl, no link came through. Can you post the link to the videos?

127 Kay,

You asked:

Perhaps you can unmuddled something for me – if a person believes in calvinist “total depravity” of the human intellect, how can they ever be certain that they are actually born again? How can they even be certain about their own “total depravity?”

No one in that mindset can really know for sure. The biggest problem is that there is the teaching that God allows some of the unregenerate to merely believe that they are saved but since He doesn’t give them the “gift” of faith, their belief is really a deception. No one can know for sure, in this thinking, whether the faith that they have is an actual “gift” or if they are one of the deceived ones who only think they have saving faith. This is one of the heartbreaks of Calvinism that causes many to question their own salvation.

Frankly because of the teaching, it is absolutely impossible for anyone to say for sure if they are really one of the elect according to Calvinist doctrine. The only way that they will ever know for sure is if they persevere to the end. So until the day that they die or until the day that Christ comes, they can never really know for sure.

I listened to a debate with James White a Calvinist apologist and he was asked about the assurance of his own salvation. He would not answer that question but spoke about the assurance about other people’s salvation. In other words he turned the question around to be how can he know for sure that other people are saved? But that wasn’t the question that he was asked. However I can see that those who really know Calvinism and its teaching very well, do not claim that they can know for sure that they are one of the elect. They can only hope that they will persevere and not be one of those whom God has chosen to mock by giving them a fake belief that isn’t a saving faith. How very, very sad.

Mark,
You said:

Therefore to deny that saving faith is in itself not a gracious gift of God necessitates that it is something we do without the help of God.

Who is claiming that our faith is “without the help of God”? It isn’t me. We are required to believe, but God is the one who draws us so it is never without the help of God. When you say things like this, I wonder why you do this? Have you accepted a false view of non-Calvinism from those who wish to separate from their brothers and sisters in Christ?

This therefore is a work since it comes from our doing and not God’s.

This is illogical. You are defining faith as having nothing at all to do with us. Faith then is God’s belief in Himself that He gives to us. But God can’t believe for us and He cannot respond for us. If faith were someone else believing for you, then why can’t our faith save our brother?

I am defining faith as something that we do in response to God’s immense amount of work in our lives. It is a response that we give to God. It is demanded of us and only our own personal response is valid. God simply cannot believe for us.

You cannot say that the faith that saves us is not a gift of God, unless you can prove biblically how this is not a work of man to earn salvation.

Mark, we already defined saving faith as not a work. I don’t need to prove it isn’t a work because we have already both agreed that saving faith is not a work.

If we say that it is our own faith (with no gift from God) then we have every reason to boast since we have chosen wisely when others have not. This I reject.

This is where you are wrong because it is not “saving faith” that is the cause for boasting. It is “salvation” that could be a cause for boasting if one worked for it. But since we already defined saving faith as not a work and since there is nothing that one can do to earn salvation, your comments are illogical.

One interesting note here is that Calvinsts often say that their faith in God’s gift of faith causes them alone to not have pride. Yet Calvinists regularly struggle with pride since their boast is that God picked them while rejecting others. In fact John Piper a famous Calvinist here in North America is taking 8 months off of ministry because of pride issues that have hurt his wife and others in ministry. My son met him last year and could see the pride in him while people were fawning over him. My son asked him about this and Piper poked his finger in my son’s chest. No pride there? Highly unlikely.

But for me knowing that God has drawn me to Jesus, He has paid the price that I could not even lift a finger to pay and that nothing I could do could earn salvation, leaves me nothing to have pride over. I am a sinner saved by God’s grace alone through God’s requirement that I believe Him. I have done that because God has proven Himself faithful. I can’t help by believe because His character is so awesome, His love so amazing and His grace so freely given that I have believed his word and fallen in love with Him because of who He is, not because of who I am of what I have done. That is Sovereign grace.

I have done nothing greater than anybody- God has simply shown me grace in giving me his gift of salvation and faith. I have nothing to boast in of myself, I can only boast in God’s mercy.

But for Calvinists you can boast that God loves you and doesn’t love a lot of others – at least not with saving love. I can’t say that for God was willing to have saving love for all because He sent Jesus to die for all. You can look around and say that in a crowd of unbelievers that God loved me more than He loved them. I am special to Him for whatever reason. While you may not know the reason why He chose you, the fact that He chose you and you are one of the elite elect chose out of all humanity makes you have lots to boast amongst those that God doesn’t love. Don’t you see how that could cause many like Piper to be prideful?

Now also since repentance is required for salvation and as 2 Tim 3 says even that is a gift of God, no-one can repent nor have faith unless God grants it to them otherwise they have room to boast of their own salvation.

The Bible says that repentance is “granted” and God grants repentance to anyone who will fear Him. It is always conditional and it is always dependent on the faithfulness of God to make sure that no one who fears God is left without salvation.

Please explain how you can have faith (which is not a gift from God) and it not be a work. If it does not stem from God then it is something we do correct?

I can have faith because God has shown Himself to me and revealed enough about Himself that I believe Him. It is God’s work to reveal Himself and God’s work to draw me and God’s work to save me. My faith is not a work because saving faith is never a work. It is the very opposite of works.

Mark, why have you been deceived to believe that saving faith is a work in some people when the Scriptures always set faith in opposition to works? Somebody has twisted your head around so that you do not even seen how you flip flop back and forth. “saving faith is a work” and “no, saving faith is not a work”. How could anyone accept Calvinism with this kind of inconsistency and illogical thinking?

Ah Mark, my anti-spam word for this one is “friend”.

Finally iwould just like to address the issue of faith.
I agree 100% that faith is not a work contrasted to works. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone to the glory of God alone. Now you asked me to show you where the bible says that faith is a work. Now this is just silly, because we both agree it isn’t.

Then, my friend, why do you continue to say that I believe in a works based salvation when I believe in faith alone and not in works? Why do you at one time say that man’s faith is a work and then deny that faith is work?

I can only have a works based salvation if I am working for my salvation. Since I am saved solely by grace through my faith in God, it is impossible for me to have a works based salvation. How is it in your head that you can see faith=works and faith does not= works? This kind of reasoning is illogical.

If I believed faith (as outlined) in the bible was a work we wouldn’t even have this conversation. What I believe is that those who say faith is not a gift of God are making saving faith into a work.

This is illogical. Saving faith cannot be a work no matter where it comes from. Now it can be a very passionate discussion between us where saving faith comes from, but it is completely illogical to state that saving faith is a work. It is by definition incapable of being a work.

Now saving faith is a gift says Eph 2. It is a gracious gift of God, so that no one can boast.

Now Mark, I have carefully gone through this piece by piece to show that the action of God which is the verb salvation is the “gift”. The rest only explains how the action is gifted to us “by grace” and “through faith”. Why do you ignore what I have written to keep insistent that Ephesians 2 says that it is “faith” that is the gift? By what basis do you hang your hat on this and where is your second witness to this important doctrine?

You have made a bold claim in saying that the faith outlined in Eph 2 is not for every believer and I have asked you to show me why, but you haven’t.

Mark, you must be very busy, because you are not taking the time to carefully read what I have written. I didn’t say that the faith outlined in Ephesians 2 is not for every believer. Instead it is 1 Cor. 12:9 where the faith listed as a gift is not given to every believer.

1 Corinthians 12:8–11 (NASB)
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Mark, I understand that you are busy, but it is important to read what I have written and not assign a statement to me that was never said. Do you want to go at this slower so that you can better absorb my comments? After all it is very wise to first understand and then defend. Otherwise it is easy to get caught in misunderstandings which lead to false claims of heresy.

Mark,
You said:

Mat 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Now is he talking about heaven Cheryl?

kingdom of heaven Sure seems like he is talking about heaven to me.

Jesus after giving the parable of the sower saids to his disciples
Mat 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower:
Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
What is the word of the kingdom? Is it only something future?

The “word” is another way to say the gospel of the kingdom.

a statement: 33.98
b speech: 33.99
c gospel: 33.260
d treatise: 33.51
e Word: 33.100
f account: 57.228
g reason: 89.18
h event: 13.115
i appearance: 30.13
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 2: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains

The “good news” of the kingdom is the message of the coming kingdom. The kingdom is still future, but the good news is spoken now.

Again Jesus saids
Mat 13:24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,

Once again as your quote shows, this is about the kingdom of heaven. This is to come.

Mark 13:31-33 is also about the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:23 is about a future coming kingdom where the accounts are “settled”. Sure hasn’t happened yet.

Matthew 19:14 is also about a future kingdom.

Matthew 19:23, 24 is about entering the kingdom of “heaven”. This is future again.

Matt. 20:1 and following is about the kingdom of heaven and the reckoning that happens in the kingdom. That reckoning has not yet happened. Once again it is consistently in the future.

There are so many references to the kingdom of God that I simply cannot go through them all, but to say the kindom is only future is a big mistake.

Let me be clear: The kingdom is future, but the preaching about the kingdom is now.

Therefore that is why Jn 3 is so clear that we need to be born again before we can even see or enter the kingdom. You have a wrong understanding of the kingdom and a wrong understanding of being born again.

My friend, it is you who have a wrong understanding. No unregenerate person is ever said to be “born again” and no “unregenerate born-again person” is prepared for the kingdom of heaven. In fact the terms “unregenerate” and “born-again” are opposites. They cannot exist together.

In a classic passage about the future kingdom, Jesus talks about entering the kingdom and it is future “on that day”.

Matthew 7:21–23 (NASB)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

I wonder why you didn’t quote these verses? Is it because they are so obvious about a future judgment and a future entering into the kingdom that they cannot even be twisted to be about the here and the now?

And how about Matt 8:11?

Matthew 8:11 (NASB)
11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;

This is the time that the OT saints looked forward to and it is clearly in the future where the dead OT saints have been resurrected.

In fact everything about the “kingdom of heaven” is so obviously in the future and not in operation on the earth.

Two last verses that are of note:

John 18:36 (NASB)
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

If the kingdom had already arrived, then why did Jesus teach his disciples to pray for God’s kingdom to come?

Luke 11:2 (NASB)
2 And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
‘Father, hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.

Kay, I love your smilie!! Glad someone else is following this post. I wasn’t sure if anyone would be interested in this side discussion.

Mark,
You said:

I’m glad you believe that God draws people to Himself. But i can’t understand how you believe God draws every single person to himself.

Drawing is not the same as “coming”. God draws all, but He doesn’t make all come.

John 12:32 (NASB)
32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Is there any reason why I should doubt Jesus? If He said that He will draw all men to Himself, then He certainly didn’t fail to do what He prophesied.

You quoted Jn 6:37 which says that all the father gives to Jesus will come to him. Does the father give every single person to Jesus? or a limited number?

No. The Father does not give every single person to Jesus. The Father only gives those who belong to Him. He gives none that don’t belong to Him. They are the ones in the Father’s hand.

John 10:29 (NASB)
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

They belonged to the Father and they kept the Father’s Word:

John 17:6 (NASB)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Now, Mark, I would like to reason with you from the Scriptures. Did God give believers in God or unbelievers to the Son? And did God give those who hated God to the Son?

You have already said you reject a doctrine of universalism so what is Jn 6 saying?

John 6 is a repeat of something that the Father already prophesied in the OT.,

Psalm 25:12–14 (NASB)
12 Who is the man who fears the LORD?
He will instruct him in the way he should choose.
13 His soul will abide in prosperity,
And his descendants will inherit the land.
14 The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.

Jesus is God’s covenant. Those who fear God will be brought to the new covenant in Jesus.

John 6 says that all those who already belonged to the Father (those who feared God) were given to Jesus. It is all about believers. God gives these believers into the safe keeping of Jesus and He will lose none of them.

What about Matt 11:27, when Jesus says no-one knows the Father except the Son and those whom the Son CHOOSES to reveal him. This is not for everybody.

Sure. And who does Jesus choose to reveal the Father to?

In Jesus’ high priestly prayer, Jesus reveals who He chooses to reveal the Father to:

John 17:8–10 (NASB)
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

John 17:20 (NASB)
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

John 17:26 (NASB)
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus reveals the Father only to believers.

God only draws those whom he chooses to reveal his Son too.

No. God draws all, but He only gives those to Jesus the ones that belong to Him. Don’t you see the difference, Mark? How can God give to Jesus those who do not belong to Him?

Mark,
You said:

John 3 shows this like i said. It is the supernatural work of God opening our eyes when we are dead in sin to enable us to accept the message of salvation.

No, Mark, God reasons with us with His own word and this enables us to believe. God reasoned with Nicodemus. Why did He do this? Can a dead man believe according to Calvinism? Was Nicodemus already born again? Then why did he show that he had not yet believed?

Mark, have you been born again? Did this happen while you were an unbeliever? If so, then how did you know that you were born again?

Mark,
It looks like you and I are online at the same time for once. Welcome buddy! I am going to answer your last set of questions now and catch up on the others just because you are here…now.

You said:

It appears that we disagree on being born again. Let me just state what i think it is and what i think it isn’t.
Being born again is not being saved. Being born again is being made alive when we are dead in our sins, so that we may have faith and believe in Jesus and then be saved. Being born again happens before salvation not after.

Mark, it isn’t a matter of what we “think” being born again is, but what the Scriptures say it is. Is being born again making a corpse live?

John 3:6–7 (NASB)
6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

From this scripture, we can see that the birth that Jesus is talking about is the birth “of the Spirit”. It is something brand new. Something that wasn’t there before, but is now born “of the Spirit”.

Jesus is talking to an unsaved man and reasoning through the Scriptures with Him. Jesus didn’t say to him that he can’t believe in Him until he is born again. He doesn’t say that there will be no faith until you are born again. And Jesus doesn’t say to him that you are dead. Jesus reasons with him as one who is capable of understanding. In verse 7 Jesus says “do not be amazed”. Jesus said “truly truly I say to you…” If the dead man could not hear Him, it was a waste of Jesus time to preach the gospel to him. Jesus was given this unregenerate man reason to believe in Him.

Another great passage is in 1 Peter 1:

1 Peter 1:3–5 (NASB)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Here we see that being born again is tied into the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead and being born again makes one an heir of God. We can also see in verse 5 by being born again is tied to salvation through faith. It is never something that belongs to an unregenerate man. No person is born again who is not an heir of salvation at their rebirth. No person is born again who is not there “through faith”. Being born again is inseparably connected to our salvation and our inheritance so that it is absolutely impossible for an unbeliever to be born again.

This is the heart break of Calvinism that teaches that unsaved people are “born of the Spirit”. Those who are unbelievers cannot know the new birth nor can they know the One who gives the new birth.

John 14:16–17 (NASB)
16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Mark, I ask you, was Jesus wrong? Can the world (unbelievers) receive the Spirit of truth through the new birth? He said that the Holy Spirit cannot be received by the world. An unbeliever cannot know the Holy Spirit or experience Him (which is knowing Him). It is impossible for the new birth to come through unbelief. It is only by faith by believing God because an unbeliever cannot know the Holy Spirit.

Also:

1 Peter 1:22–23 (NASB)
22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Being born again is not bringing to life a dead person, but it is a new life through a new “seed”. It is reviving the old, but giving something new. The “seed” of God is never within an unbeliever.

And lastly:

1 John 3:9 (NASB)
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here John talks about being born again as one “born of God” as His “seed” within us. John makes a big deal about this “seed” of God within us so much so that those who are “born of God” with His seed cannot continue to sin because he has been reborn. Does this fit unbelievers? Do they have God’s “seed” within them?

Now I ask you – where does it say that those who have God’s seed within them are not saved? Where does it say that they are just brought to life but without faith and without salvation?

Mark,
You said:

By the way can you differentiate between ‘seeking God’ and ‘coming to God since you seem to make that an important distinction.

Seeking God is searching for Him and wanting desperately to know Him. Coming to God is having a relationship with Him.

John 14:6 (NASB)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Continuing on…
Mark, you said:

Unless we accept that every single piece of our salvation is from God, it will always be works based.

Look Mark, every piece of our salvation is from God. But regarding our faith, we are required to believe God. When God speaks and I believe God, how can I be considered to be working for my salvation? Scripture doesn’t say that faith is a gift of God to unbelievers. If so, please show me where it says this.

Rather, the faith that is a gift is always given by the Holy Spirit to believers.

I do pray that God will reveal that to you, in the same way he did to me a few years ago. It totally changed my understanding of the grace of God. He is so merciful.

I did an interesting study concerning Calvinism and I asked Calvinists how they got the “truth” of Calvinism and I was told in each case that it came from studying the works of Calvinists/Reformers. They didn’t just “get it” from reading the Word of God. Apparently some think that men’s books are necessary for God’s revelation because God’s Word isn’t plain enough without addition “helps”.

What I have seen from reading these books is a God who has mercy on so few yet the Scriptures tell me that God is rich in mercy.

Psalm 103:8 (NASB)
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.

And another thing I notice about the Scriptures is that God freely gives His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.

Psalm 103:11 (NASB)
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.

I have not seen anyplace that says that God gives the “gift” of fear to some men. Rather, people respond to the revelation of God with godly fear and God responds with His awesome lovingkindness.

Should we say that those who “fear God” are doing a works based salvation? Should we say that God gives the “gift” of fear to some? No. Fearing God is faith in God and it is our response, not a gift reserved for an elite few.

It is another day and we will see how much we can get through today.

Mark,
You said:

You said “Faith in God and receiving Jesus comes before we become children of God.”
Really Cheryl, I don’t think Romans 8 says this

Romans 8 does not contradict this at all. If you think it does, please show me where it says that we are children of God before we receive Jesus.

Does the Bible say that those who received Him are given the right to become children of God?

John 1:12 (NASB)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Does the Bible say that we are sons of God through faith? Or are we sons of God without any regard to our faith?

Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now I ask you to show me one verse that says we are born again without faith. You have not done so and if you can please do. show it to me.

We were predestined to be conformed to Jesus image before we are justified according to these verses.

Sure. But we are not “born again” before have faith. That isn’t scriptural.

We were God’s children CHOSEN before the world was created according to Eph 1:4.

Sorry, but this isn’t true. We are not “God’s children” before the world was created. Before we came to faith we were enemies of God not children of God.

If only you realised Cheryl, that you were God’s chosen child before you even knew about Him.

I already realize that. The question is not what I was before I was born, but why. What was the condition that God foreknew me in Christ? We won’t be debating this because it goes off the topic of women in ministry, but know for sure that I agree with the Bible when the Bible plainly says something and when we need philosophy and human reasoning to give reason for things that God is silent on, I do not accept man’s reasoning.

It is true that John 1 says we become God’s child after we trust in Jesus. I believe that, but I also believe that bible clearly teaches that this was God’s plan for my life before the world was even created.

But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing whether you are born again before you have faith. And the Scriptural answer is “no”.

I’m interested to know how you pray for your unsaved friends Cheryl. Do you pray for God to open their eyes or to soften their hearts? Or do you not even ask God to help and just believe that their own free-will is good enough?

This shows a clear misunderstanding of the Sovereignty of God outside of Calvinism. You won’t find me saying that man is able to will himself as a Christian and doesn’t need God to draw Him. It is too bad that Calvinists think so little of our common Christian faith but seem to want to see other Christians as having a man centered gospel. It is a pity.

You see everyone believes in the sovereignty of God when they pray and ask God to intervene, even if you deny it when you speak to me.

Oh brother! Why on earth you keep saying that I deny the Sovereignty of God is beyond me. It is like I say one thing and you turn it around to say I am denying the very thing I am fighting for. I am really curious. Why do you do that?

Being ‘born-again’ is God opening their eyes to the message of the cross.

No it is not. Being born again is a miraculous work that transforms and renews and brings God’s life to a heart that was separated from God and lost in sin. It is opening of the eyes. It is a transformation.

We in sin are dead people according to Eph 2 therefore we need to be re-born and made alive, and like i said ealier, EPh 2 tells us that it is God who makes us alive not oursleves.

And like I said, of course it is God who makes us alive in Him and it is not ourselves at all. But is this miracle something that happens before faith? Not according to the Scriptures.

Being born again definitely comes before faith. It is the work of the spirit in unregenerate man so that he can accept the message of salvation.

You have said that before. Show me from the Scriptures that Cornelius became born again before he heard the message. And why would he need to hear the message if he was already born again?? He doesn’t need the message to be saved if he is already saved? Why is this reasoning so contradictory to the Scripture and never found explicitly in the Scriptures? I don’t accept it because I want Bible only not human reasoning.

Roman 14- I agree with the context, but the verse still says what it says. Everything not done in faith is sin, whether you’re a believer or unbeliever.

Show me where it says that everything that an unbeliever does that is not in faith is a sin? And how can an unbeliever do anything in faith? Wouldn’t that make him a believer? The context never mentions unbelievers so you just slip them in. Now show me a context that talks about unbelievers and how everything they do is sin even if it is a good work. Go ahead. I will wait patiently for your verses.

The reason being that everything is to be done for the glory of God. IF it is not done in faith in God how can it give glory to God, it simply can’t. I can’t see why you would deny this biblical verse.

You haven’t shown me a verse that includes unbelievers. And can you imagine Jesus saying to the Pharisees, that even though they are evil, they can do good, but they shouldn’t even try to do good, because any good they do is really just sinning more and more. So maybe Jesus would be telling these Pharisees to keep on sinning more and more because it is less offensive to God than if they are helpful and kind to their families. God just hates kind unbelievers, right?

Where does it say this in the bible? God demands that we follow him and no other, but I haven’t seen anywhere where the bible says we have the ‘freedom to seek God’.

God gives us two options and never just one. We can seek Him or we can reject Him.

1 Chronicles 28:9 (NASB)
9 “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

And Jesus promised that those who seek will find.

Matthew 7:7 (NASB)
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Now show me a verse that says that God will only allow some to seek Him and Him and most He will purposely stop them from seeking Him and purposely stop them from finding Him although He demands that they seek Him? Go ahead and show me where only some are enabled to seek God.

Aren’t we as fallen people living in the darkness, suppressing the truth, until God opens our eyes?

No. Romans 1:18 doesn’t say that all men suppress the truth. But the passage says that those who deliberately suppress the truth, God gives them up. Here is a description of them:

Romans 1:26–27 (NASB)
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

Are you in this group? Were you given up to degrading passions and did you burn in your desire for other men? No? Then this passage is not about all people, but about those who purposely suppress the truth. I didn’t do that and likely you didn’t either.

I agree that faith is not a work, it is because it is a gift of God so that none can boast.

If faith is not a work, then man’s faith is not a work either.

If faith is something we do without God, then it is a work of ours because it doesn’t stem from God, therefore you have works based salvation.

You just contradicted yourself. You said that faith is not a work, then you said that our faith is a works based salvation. Either faith is a work or it is not.

Secondly we cannot have faith without God for we cannot even have faith in God without Him drawing us. I don’t know anyone who is teaching that faith exists independent of God working on us an drawing us to Himself. That is true faith. It is a response to God’s work. It is not a gift that God gives arbitrarily to a few. It is a response not a gift.

This is the problem with your view. You can’t skirt around the issue. You need to do better at convincing me that you are not promoting a works based salvation.

I am not skirting around the issue. I am answering every one of your questions. Before I take a stab at convincing you that I am not promoting a works based salvation, please show me from the Scripture where a man’s faith is a work. i.e. Abraham believed God is Abraham’s faith in God’s revelation. The text doesn’t say that God gave Abraham the gift of faith, but rather Abraham believed God’s word. Where is the accusation that Abraham was making this a works based faith?

The fact is that faith is the direct opposite of works. Every place it is mention in conjunction with works, it is in opposition to works except for the book of James where our works are necessary to show our faith to others. But our faith is never ever called a “work” to God.

Like I said Pelagianism (Augustine) and semi-pelagianism (reformers) were both condemned. How is your view not semi-pelagianism Cheryl?

Once again you are implying that I am a heretic and not a sister in Christ. Why do you do that?

I do not believe that works are required for salvation. In fact I believe that relying on works removes our faith. Our faith is the exact opposite works and not a single Scripture says that our faith is looked on by God as a work for salvation.

I am honestly tired of being called a heretic and then you trying to say that I am really a sister in Christ. You are confused at the seriousness of heresy.

Sheryl,
When I read your story about the pastor who stated that women were not allowed in his pulpit, I felt the rejection that you would likely have felt. When our brothers in Christ treat us as if we are an appendage and really not necessary and our gifts not really necessary for them, it really hurts.

God richly bless you and your ministry, Cheryl; it is needed now more than ever – please know you are in my prayers as you continue on the frontlines of this issue.

Thank you so much for your encouragement! It means a lot to me.

TL,

It is wonderful news to hear that you are being given an opportunity to speak to the church! I have prayed that God will richly use you and give you wisdom as you speak.

Sheryl,
I listened to the audio and the speaker is correct in that many translators have been biased in the verses that refer to females and instead of freeing women (Paul say ‘let her learn’) the passage is used to restrict women. This is a biased view that has hurt women and the church throughout the years.

That said, I do have a problem with his view that he brings out from the Kroegers because there is no adequate connection between all the verses. It is my understanding that verse 15 which is connected together with verses 11-15 is the expected good outcome from the restriction that exists in verse 12. So while he explains what the restriction means, how is it connected to verse 15? There is no explanation of why there is a singular “she” and a plural “they” in verse 15 or why women are saved through giving birth to children. The verse that is the hardest to understand (verse 15) is not adequately explained.

It is my belief that any view that is the truth about this passage must bring the grammar and the precise words of verse 15 to a logical conclusion of the prohibition. I have heard this explanation before and it just doesn’t fit in my head. If this is really what Paul meant to say, it would have been better to say “I am not allowing the teaching that the woman authored the man”. That would be understandable. But why say that only women are not allowed to teach this? Are men allowed to teach that the woman authored the man but women are not allowed to teach this? There are so many unanswered questions in this view if one believes that the passage is written exactly as God wanted with the correct grammar and the correct words being used with no mistakes. I have been told that the view that I hold that accounts for the singular “she” and the plural “they” makes the entire passage make sense. I can understand that I could be wrong and the Kroeger’s could be right but then there would need to be shown me where the holes are in my view and the holes in their view would need to be answered for it to make proper sense.

But I do appreciate anyone sticking up for women’s ability to serve God in the gifts that He has given them. When all of us are gifted as God wills and empowered to use these gifts for the benefit of the body of Christ, the church will be equipped as she should.

Hi Katrina and welcome to my blog.

Isn’t it wonderful that God isn’t prejudiced and sexist like some have claimed that He is? It is certainly worth our time in defending the God of the Bible – the One who is without sin and without prejudice.

Thanks for your comments!

Okay, I just happened to read this:

With what you have said i feel strongly that the core of the gospel is at stake. You say you believe in a non-works salvation, then please show me why and how.

…so my answer should allow me to go to bed.

Faith is not a work. Faith is contrasted to works.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB)
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 3:28 (NASB)
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Now show me where in the Bible that man’s faith is called a “work”. If you cannot do that then would you please stop calling your sister in Christ one who believes in a works salvation. A works salvation is a heresy and no one who believes in works for salvation is saved.

If you need more I have some drawings I did for another Calvinist pastor that I can try to reproduce here. But first of all, do you job and either put up or shut up (a term used here in North America for proving your case. It isn’t meant to be offensive.) Prove that faith is considered a work in the Scriptures if it is not a “gift” of God. Go ahead. I will be waiting with baited breath.

Mark,
You said:

By the way Cheryl, repentance is also a gift of God not our own strength
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
Who grants repentance here Cheryl, clearly God. Repentance and faith are gifts of God to his sheep, so that no-one can boast.

Repentance may be “granted” but it is granted by allowing, enabling or helping one to repent.

if-perhaps God may-give (b) them repentance to acknowledgment of-truth,
LEXICON—
b. aorist act. opt. (LN 13.142) (BAGD p. 192): ‘to give’ [BAGD, ICC; KJV, NJB], ‘to give the opportunity’ [TEV], ‘to grant’ [BAGD, Herm, HNTC, LN, NTC; NASB, NIV, NRSV, REB], ‘to allow’ [LN], ‘to enable’ [NAB], ‘to help’ [TNT], ‘to get to give’ [Lns].
An Exegetical Summary of 2 Timothy (2nd ed.) (pgs 81–82).

Okay, that is all I can get to tonight. Will try to pick up where I left off sometime tomorrow providing God grants me the time.

Mark,
You said:

In the 2 Chronicles verse, you forgot to mention the verse before which show God intervening through the Prophet Azariah. So the same principle applies, God has to work first before we can respond.

I didn’t need to “forget to mention” the previous verse because I am not disputing that God uses many things to make people reconsider their need for Him. But the issue is not whether God works, but whether unregenerate people can see God.

2 Chronicles 15:4 (NET)
15:4 Because of their distress, they turned back to the LORD God of Israel. They sought him and he responded to them.

So once again the Scriptures I quoted stand unrefuted.

Another point to note is that the Bible never talks about our own free-will, as if we can accept God by ourselves especially in the verses you quoted.

That is another thing where Calvinists misunderstand non-Calvinists. Who on earth is claiming that we can come to God without His drawing us? Not me. No one can come to God without Him drawing them. The difference between us is not that one believes man has the power to come to God on his own terms, because I don’t believe that. The difference is that I believe God is willing to draw all men to Himself while you believe that God predeterminately selects only a few unregenerate to draw them to Himself without any conditions and without any faith on their own behalf.

These passages are silent on why the people turned to God, but we have other clear passage which show us why people do turn, namely, because God intervenes. Does Jesus not say that no-one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him?

This is not the issue since I have already agreed that God must draw people. The issue is whether one must be born again first become one can seek for God. The Bible never says that a person is changed from an unregenerate person into a born again person and then and only then can he seek God.

John 3- Cheryl, what is the kingdom of God, if not a relationship with him?

A relationship with Jesus is never called “the kingdom of God”. It is called “knowing” Him.

John 17:3 (NASB)
3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

On the contrary, the term “the kingdom of God” is something that Christians will enter into in the future. It is not a term of relationship. I do notice that many times you give your own ideas but you don’t quote the Scriptures. I submit it is because there are no Scriptures to support your view and so you have nothing to document from the Bible.

What does Jesus mean by being born again? I would like to know your opinion?

Born again is a supernatural act of God where ones heart is changed from the nature of the “old man” to the nature of the second adam.

James 1:18 (NASB)
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

When are we born of the Spirit (verse 5)? You must believe that the Spirit of God does not enter our life until we respond in faith right?

We are born of the Spirit when we are saved. The Jailer asked how he could be saved and Paul and Silas didn’t say to him that he must be saved already (born again) if he is asking the question. Rather they told him that he must believe in order to be saved.

Acts 16:30–32 (NASB)
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

So if we can circumcise our own heart by our own repentance, why did we need the new covenant. Didn’t at least some of the Jews repent Cheryl?

We circumcise our own heart by our repentance but this doesn’t save us. Only God’s work that is done by condition of our repentance and faith will bring salvation. Those who repented and believed God in the OT were promised that they would be given God’s covenant.

Psalm 25:12–14 (NASB)
12 Who is the man who fears the LORD?
He will instruct him in the way he should choose.
13 His soul will abide in prosperity,
And his descendants will inherit the land.
14 The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.

For the OT saints who feared God, they were promised that the son of righteousness will arise for them on that day that the Lord is preparing and for those who fear Him, they will belong to God as His own possession.

Malachi 3:16–Malachi 4 (NASB)
16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name.
17 “They will be Mine,” says the LORD of hosts, “on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.

Chapter 4
2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

All those who belonged to the Father through their fear of Him and their faith were promised the covenant and they were given to Jesus.

John 6:37 (NASB)
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Everyone who belongs to the Father will come to Jesus.

Your view makes the new covenant un-necessary.

No, not at all because the new covenant is fulfilled in Jesus. All who belonged to the Father in the OT would be brought into the new covenant through Jesus.

In our own strength we are nothing and can do nothing to save ourselves. Again I must protest that you are stealing the glory from God in HIS work. It is not our own doing.

Who is stealing the glory from God? You again greatly misunderstand. We cannot save ourselves. The new birth is the miracle working of God alone and we cannot work this miracle. It belongs to God alone.

To continue…

Mark,
You said:

Your other old testament quotes do nothing to support your view of unregenerate man seeking God. The first one is a dubious translation, the NIV makes is a hypothetical by using ‘if’, that is “But if from there you seek the Lord”,

Deuteronomy 4:29 (NASB)
29 “But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

The NASB is far from a “dubious” translation. Let’s have a look at the Andersen-Forbes phrase marker analysis to see what the actual Hebrew says:

It agrees with the NASB so your point does not stand.