“If you study the wording, one sees that there is NO command from God to name the animals, this is because the authority to do so is ALREADY in the command from Gen 1.”

Excellent point, Don!

Hi hrht,

Thanks for the audio files.  I will listen to them shortly.  I am also interested to hear what he has to say about the Trinity especially since I have just finished refuting Bruce Ware’s view of the eternal subordination of the Son.

Thank you Michael for standing with me!  I have gone the next step in Matthew 18 and gone to Matt’s Pastor.  If he is a really good Pastor he will do something about the abuses.  My Pastor has already tried to get Matt to see things rationally but Matt wouldn’t listen.  Perhaps Matt will listen to his own Pastor.

Michael,
I am sure I did get your last email.  I have just been so busy that it has been difficult to keep up.  The Trinity DVD has already been scripted and filmed and it is longer than I would like so I will be working to try to edit it down a little.  There is so much more that could be said but I have to stick to the most important parts regarding the authority of the Son in the Trinity.  Perhaps there will be further opportunity for another DVD on this subject.  Right now I am up to my ears in editing and it is coming along really well.  Lots to do but it is very exciting seeing it come to life at my fingertips!

Yup, I just got suspended from CARM.  You cannot call them to account.  I asked for a meeting with Matt Slick to have a Matthew 18 meeting with me.  He won’t answer me.  Now I am banned/suspended from CARM.  When people refuse to conform to God’s truth, they will do anything they can to stop the truth from being told.  If they can’t control you, they will shut you up.  But the fact is they cannot control me here.  They cannot stop us from speaking out regarding what the truth is.  God’s freedom is so beautiful, isn’t it?

The link is here http://carmpodcasting.blogspot.com/2008/05/matt-slick-with-guest-522.html
From this page you can access the audio.  You may want to download it onto your computer because I suspect that it may “disappear” just like the reinvention of Diane’s that Matt was talking about English and not Greek.  I do have the full audio and will make sure that the audio is available if/when CARM does remove the audio file.

Don,
One other thing that I forgot to comment on…the Greek is a higher Greek in some areas of the bible than other areas.  The Greek is a very low Greek with some of the fishermen 🙂  However Paul’s grasp of the Greek is very good and no one makes any grammar errors in their level of Greek.  The fully agree with Matt’s Greek expert on this.

missional girl,
Matt certainly hasn’t given up on the matter.  In fact his vice-president put “sticky” labels on the discussion so that the whole world can know that I have refused Matt’s “invitation” to an audio debate and that I had been refuted already.  Matt has never answered my “refutation” of his “refutation” nor has he answered 1 Timothy 2:15 regarding the grammar except to say that the grammar is in error.  This kind of “refutation” is irresponsible in my opinion.

Charis,
I too believe “the childbearing” to be a reference to the fulfillment of prophecy which was given in Genesis 3 to the woman and reiterated in Rev. 12 as the Messiah’s birth.

Don,
It appears that Matt Slick has no interest in meeting with me over any matter even a Matthew 18 issue.  The next step would appear to be going to his church.

As far as salvation that comes with the help of others, I think there are situations when the deception is so strong that only through the help of the Holy Spirit’s work that often is done through the help of dedicated Christians, can a person come out of the deception.  I know how hard it is for a person to come out of the deception of the Jehovah’s Witnesses as I led a support group for those coming out for 16 years.  If deception is one of the keys to understanding 1 Timothy 2:11-15, then helping the deceived one stay away from the deceiving influences can be a tremendous help.  The pull back into the deception is common.  Many of the people from the support group shared with me the doubts and attack on their mind even years after their exodus from the captivity of the Watchtower.

I do agree that Paul’s personal letter to Timothy is hard to understand because there are things that Timothy knew about the situation that we cannot readily pick up.  I think there is enough evidence in the text with the specific wording and specific grammar that we can have a good foundational understanding that what Paul is prohibiting is not godly biblical teaching.  What he is prohibiting is the teaching of error.

Thanks Greg!

I could never understand why these men can see “sex” when the text explains what the immodest styles are – expensive dresses, gold and costly jewelry and extravagant hair styles.  That is, until I started to read the Talmud and saw that they blamed the woman if she was walking in front of the man and her ankle became uncovered.  To some men anything is a sexual enticement even a fully covered woman in a shapeless robe and a head covering but with a bare ankle!  Then I understood.  What was written by Paul to encourage women to show their character as their beauty instead of their expensive adornment has been twisted into a modern day advise against short skirts and tight sweaters.  While that advise is wise, it isn’t what Paul was saying.  This is taking our modern culture and transforming it into biblical times.  This just isn’t possible and we need to look more carefully at the words and the context to understand it properly.

Hi Called and wanting healing,

What an exciting start for you in the UK! I encourage people to visit and post on “Called’s” blog. I will try to do so myself later when I can carve out some time.

Blessings and thanks so much for joining this community here in North America!

Don and Terri,

Good thoughts on that audio. I also made some other notes on the audio regarding male and female equality. The vicar says that for people to say that men and women are equal is to say that men and women are the same. This is not true at all. This leads to CBMW now saying that egalitarian marriages are “same sex” marriage. This is poisoning the well. Egalitarians do not believe that men and women are exactly the same. That is why we are complementary. Yet to be complementary we need to work together. If only men teach, then there are no women who can complement the men at teaching. The fact that men and women both teach, shows the opportunity for a complementary view coming from the women teachers. I really feel sorry for men who do not allow themselves to be taught by women. Women get the advantage of having true complementary teaching given to them since they are privileged to have both men and women teachers. Male hierarchists allow only men to teach them so they do not experience true complementary teaching.

Another thing that I noticed about the audio tape was that he took a limited male view of 1 Timothy 2:9 where he equates “modest” dress with sexuality. Yet the context equates modest with not openly opulent with gold, pearls and elaborate hair styles. Although women should not dress sexually seductive, in context Paul is talking about showing off one wealth as if our importance comes from the style of clothing, the quality of jewelry or elaborate and expensive hair dos. Our importance comes rather from our character that is gentle and respectful rather than from our dress. Paul is not talking about women seducing men in this passage. This is why it is good to have women who can have a complementary view of scripture to show men who only see “sex” as a reason for dressing modestly that Paul’s emphasis is on elaborate style vs character.

The vicar also makes a comment that some things that Paul says appear to be contradictory for example Paul’s circumcising of Timothy when Paul said that men shouldn’t get circumcised. What he missed was that Paul made allowances for the prejudice of men in order to reach them even through their prejudice. He had Timothy circumcised so that the prejudiced Jews would not have a reason to hold back from hearing the gospel preached. Yet when they got saved, Paul would turn around and work on their prejudice so that they would not hinder and stumble others. I think this should help us realize that we can try hard to “work around” people’s prejudice so that we can reach them where they are. Once they have been changed, they will be more open to lay aside their prejudice and accept those whom they had previously rejected as their equals.

Regarding the comment from “Called and wanting healing”,

I have listened to the audio file and there isn’t anything on that audio tape that isn’t refuted in my DVD.  However for those who don’t have the DVD, let me point out a few things that jumped out at me.

First of all I did appreciate that this vicar says that he hasn’t pushed his views on people for the entire number of years that he has been at this church.  That is a good thing especially since there are so many who have not only pushed this view on people but who have also separated themselves from those who disagree on this secondary issue.

One thing that I found quite odd in his explanation.  He said a woman can prophesy because of the “non authoritative” nature of NT prophesy.  He said that prophesies need to be tested but that we don’t need to test the authoritative teaching of the word of God.  This is simply not true.  We are to test all things and hold fast to what is true.  Even Paul who was the author of authoritative scripture welcomed his teaching to be tested by the word of God!  To say that authoritative bible teaching by men is not to be tested is really quite shocking! He has gone above and beyond scripture with this teaching.

Another thing the vicar said was Deborah was only used because God had no men to lead.   There has never been a time when God didn’t have men.  When Elijah was concerned that he was the only one left that was serving God, God told him in 1 Kings 19:18 that he had 7,000 others in Israel who have not bowed the knee to Baal.

Also when the priest Hilkiah and four other men were sent to the Huldah to find out what the word of the Lord was, Jeremiah was in the land prophesying for 5 years already when the men were sent to Huldah.  To say that Hulday or Deborah was used because there were no men that could be used by God is inaccurate and faulty.

Also the vicar says that the ordination of women is not from the Holy Spirit.  This is comes from prejudice in the church.  Years ago many in the church didn’t believe that God could use a black person to preach and teach the scriptures to white people.  Was this because the Holy Spirit did not ordain them or was this because of the prejudice in the church?  I think that when we look at scripture from a prejudiced viewpoint that brings presuppositions to the text, we will read our own prejudice into the text.

I very much look forward to hearing the next edition of the vicar’s message.  Anyone else have any comments on this audio file, please feel free to share it here.

Lin,
You have been such a blessing to me!  Your encouraging words have been so soothing to me.  I truly do understand that we do not need man’s approval and that we are to please our Master first and foremost, but there are times that I wish I could do more to help people get the message about women and I feel down when I miss the mark of helping someone out of their faulty mindset.  I must continue to remind myself that it is the Holy Spirit’s job (and not mine!) to work the heart.  My job is to be faithful and use my gifts wherever and whenever God gives me opportunity and not to worry about how ripe the fruit is.  The harvest will come because it is God’s harvest.  When I read encouraging words like yours I remember that faithfulness is the key.  I am blessed when you share how you were looking for the “liberal” fruit around every corner in my teaching but you didn’t find it.  That means that I have been successful at presenting the importance of God’s word as the true authority.  If I can help even one person put their faith in God’s word and help them to be encouraged to read it in context(!), then I have been blessed beyond measure to be a tool in the hand of the Master.  Praise the Lord!!!  Thank you, Lin, for being that encouraging voice!

Don,
I have been thinking about it, and I think it would be good to carry on this conversation with a new post on the issue of women pastor’s.  I will try to get it up this weekend.  It has been so crazy around here with me working until about 11 pm every night.  That is a solid 15 hour day 5 days a week working on the video editing of the Trinity DVD.  I decided that I deserve to take the weekends off so that I can get a few other things done along with cleaning.  The dust bunnies are building up 🙂

Martin and Lin,
Thanks!  Lin, I too hope that the egalitarian side will get a fair hearing and get many digging into scripture.  I really don’t know anything about DTS but am not surprised that there are those who would throw out a “liberal” label and use that to shut up any dialog. I was shocked the first time someone gave me the “liberal” label.  I am about as far from liberal as you can get so if I can be labeled that way, then maybe labels don’t mean much anymore. The funny thing is that the real “liberals” don’t want anything to do with my DVD because it is too strong on the inspiration of scripture.

tiro, Greg and Cindy:

Thanks for your encouragement! It is so wonderful to have the doors being opened to us again regarding finances and also support of the work that I do. It has been a difficult year to say the least!

Don,

The seminary is Dallas Theological Seminary. The prof said that students would be able to discuss the exegesis presented on the DVDs. I do not know whether or not they plan to bring up both sides of the issue or not.

Don,

No problem, I fixed it for you 🙂  I will get back to you later.  This week has been one of those very busy weeks.  Up to my ears in video editing and working on selling our house.

Don,
Your question is an excellent one and one that should be considered. I believe that the eleven were given authority by Jesus and within that authority we can trust everything that they do regarding the gospel of Christ and the teachings and foundation of the church. The question that I have posed elsewhere and continue to pose, is did the foundational apostles also have the authority to pick the twelfth apostle? I say that their authority for the foundation of the church was to be exercised after they were given power from the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and Jesus asked them to wait for this. While I do believe that they had the authority to appoint apostles to represent them and to carry on the work with them, they were not given the authority to pick the candidates that were then presented to God to choose from to pick one for the twelfth apostle. I believe that scripture is clear that Jesus himself has the authority to pick each and every foundational apostles and each and every foundational apostle was uniquely given a mandate to be an eye witness to the resurrection.

I believe that when the filling of the Holy Spirit happened at Pentecost and the authority was confirmed and supported by the infilling of the Holy Spirit that not one decision they made as a whole was a decision in error or a decision that Jesus had not given them authority to make. I think this is where the difference is and why I believe Paul’s claim to being a special witness to the resurrection overrides the decision of the eleven that came before Pentecost.

I also think that the question has great ramifications on the women’s issue. While I believe that the church has the mandate to make sure that those who protect them are qualified as overseers, I believe that the church does not have authority to ordain pastors who have not been gifted by God as a pastor and neither does the church have the authority to stop a person from operating in their gifting as a pastor if God has so gifted that person. I believe that Ephesians 4:10, 11 teaches us that it is under Jesus’ own authority that the gifts exist and that he himself has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers to the body of Christ. We have been given authority to operate in these gifts (1 Peter 4:11) but I do not believe that the church has authority to deny our gifts or to stop us from fulfilling our calling in Christ. It is because if Jesus alone is the one who gifts the body with pastors, then the church does not have the authority to reject a woman who has been gifted by Jesus to be a pastor. The things that are in Jesus’ hands alone must be left in his hands. We can confirm the gifts we see in others but our confirmation cannot make someone a pastor nor can it deny someone’s gifting. The foundation for that belief is 1 Peter 4:10, 11 where the one gifted is given authority to use their gift (those gifted in speaking are authorized to speak as one who speaks the very utterances or oracles of God). I also believe in the fact that Jesus himself chose Paul as an apostle chosen to be a witness to the resurrection. I conclude that there are still areas of authority that do not belong to the church and have never belonged to the church and choosing pastors is one of those areas that the church has no authority over according to Ephesians 4:11.

Coach Mack,

I would say that in general this is true although of course there are always exceptions.  I think Jesus showed us all how we can strive to communicate in a better way and also how all of us can learn how to be silent too when it is needed.  We also need to learn from him how to have wisdom to know the difference.

Thanks Lin,

That is a great way to have a written debate.  I think Matt should see this even though he will not venture into territory where he doesn’t think he can control the outcome.

Patricia,

I don’t know why you can’t get onto worthy boards.  I haven’t been on that board for a very long time.  I tried emailing you but the email address you gave me didn’t work.  You may have a typo in your email address.

73 Don,

I agree with all of your 1-4 points except your last #4 point which I assume should have been #5. I believe that Paul claims to be one of the 12 apostles.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
Rom 1:3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

In Romans 1:1-5 Paul declares that he is an apostle of Jesus Christ. Paul then goes on to declare the gospel that the foundational apostles were specifically chosen to be witnesses of: the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Then Paul states that it is through Jesus and his resurrection that “we” have received grace and apostleship. In verse 5 Paul aligns himself with the other apostles that Jesus specifically hand picked to be witnesses of the resurrection.
While there were others in the church who were apostles and there were others who were leaders (James for example), there were only 12 who were picked by Jesus to be eyes witnesses to the resurrection and these were all to be apostles of Jesus Christ. No other apostle claimed to be picked by Jesus nor did they claim to be an apostle of the resurrection. Paul claimed these things.
Paul also claimed that he was equal to the other apostles picked by Jesus:

2 Co 11:5 For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles.

Paul also claimed that he had the signs of a true apostle:

2Co 12:11 I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody.
2Co 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

No other apostle in the NT claimed to be picked by Jesus. No other apostle claimed to be an apostle of the resurrection. No other apostle claimed to be equal to the other apostles of Jesus Christ. No other apostle claimed to have the miracles to prove that he was a true apostle. No other apostle even had to have miracles to prove that he was a sent one from the church. But an apostle of Jesus Christ had to be picked by Jesus, had to be a witness to the resurrection and had to have the “signs” of that apostleship.

While this is not a hill to die on nor is it a necessary thing to believe, I myself accept Paul’s claim to be an apostle of Jesus Christ one called to be a witness of the resurrection and with the evidence of his apostleship supplied by his signs, wonders and miracles and his great revelations from Jesus Christ. Because of this, I believe that Paul was personally picked by Jesus as the 12th apostle of the resurrection and Matthias, although he was an apostle of the church, was not one of the twelve picked by Jesus.

Thanks Lin.

I have been reading CBMW material for years now and their influence has certainly rubbed off!

Paula (a.k. Paul),

(snorkle) I found it in my spam box! I unloaded it with the tools that were available to me and it has shown up as #40.

Great spoof, you got a job. (Get ‘er done!)

Hi Paula,

I did get the “broad” post.  Are there any confusions on the new format for comments?  Any ideas?

Paula,

I say, “Go for it!”  I think we need a few smiles in our life with all the Talmudic rules out there.

In the newest CBMW “rules” about what women can and cannot do, I find it amazing at the level of authority they believe they have to interpret God’s thoughts. On page 20 they say:

“While we believe men teaching and leading teenage boys would be the wises arrangement, we do not intend to make an absolute rule here.”

It appears that they believe they have authority to make absolute rules in some cases and then back off and make “suggestions” on how to apply the “law” in other cases. Apparently they believe God was not able to make himself clear on the “prohibition” in 1 Timothy 2:12 and so they are the ones who have to figure out whether doctrine is being taught by a woman or whether she is only “helping” a man and not providing direct doctrinal instruction. Yet all of this seems so out of place with how scripture views women. Did not Priscilla teach doctrine to Apollos? If she was correcting his doctrine and teaching him the truth from scripture, there isn’t any doubt at all that she was teaching doctrine to a man. If CBMW had existed back in Paul’s day, I can just hear it now….

“We believe a woman co-correcting the doctrine of a man, even with her husband, is problematic. Apollos may very well have understood such a “team-correcting” as promoting a woman as having authority over a man. This is a primary responsibility of an elder and should be prohibited by the woman Priscilla. Also we determine that such a co-correcting position would give the false impression that the church is promoting “mutual submission”. We strongly affirm only one-way submission and thus will not allow Aquilla to listen to Priscilla correcting Apollos.

We also advise that co-correcting sessions be limited to the attendance of women who need correcting. Women teachers need to be careful not to violate the men’s right to continue their false doctrine until a qualified man is available to correct them. This does not prohibit her in any way from smiling at him because we see no prohibition in scripture regarding a hearty smile.”

tiro,
The comments have been changed so that there are 10 comments per page .  Underneath the 10 comments are page numbers and you can go through each page or you can hit the “Show All” and that option puts the comments back the way they were with all of them on one page.  I don’t think there were more than the 19 comments on this post.  My “fences” post had 74 comments and they seem to be all there.
So if anyone has a problem with viewing the comments per page or would rather that I made more comments per page, just let me know and I can adjust that.  And of course clicking on “Show All” gets you back to just one page.

Don,
You have identified the problem right there.  CBMW has recently changed their own man-made laws to include prohibitions that didn’t exist a few years ago.  What will be next?  They already say that women are not allowed to teach doctrine even in their own home, but perhaps next year they won’t be able to teach the gospel either since that is teaching the bible.  This is part of the church that appears to be going backwards taking privileges in Christ away from women.

Okay, good news.  My son figured out a way to have program installed that will email a person a pdf copy of my posts instead of me making my own copy.  At the bottom of each post is a box where you can enter your email address and you should get an email back immediately with the pdf copy of the post.  Cool eh?