Holly

Also, “a woman’s spiritual resource is always a man”? Not God himself? Wow. So what are we to make of women receiving prophetic insight, inspiration, visions, or empowerment directly from God then? Seems to me like God is a woman’s spiritual resource just as he is a man’s, and why shouldn’t this be the case when women have the same direct, intimate relationship with God that men do?

If women don’t reflect the image and glory of God, then how would a teacher like MacArthur explain the fact that ALL believers are being conformed to Christ’s image? – “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Romans 8:29). Am I supposed to believe that this doesn’t apply to women? Are women somehow going to bear his image less in the new creation? Are women somehow “less” of a light in the world, despite the fact that women are filled with the Holy Spirit just as men are? Isn’t the whole point of the sanctification of the Spirit in believers to conform us to Christ’s image? Holy Spirit filled = reflecting God’s glory. And it would make absolutely no sense to suggest that women reflect this glory less, or somehow do so indirectly.

I’m getting sick of degrading views like MacArthur’s. Nothing else damages my faith more than teachings like this.

Thank you for pinpointing the issue of doubt and grumbling. John 6 is humbling. I began studying John last month when I was searching for reasons Christ was not considered born in Bethlehem (by Sanhedrin I think). When I got to chapter 6 – wow. His humility, and His focus in the cross leaves me in awe. Folks started grumbling pretty early on.

@ 201
“Submission is not as strong a concept as telling a man to give up completely of himself for his wife even sacrificing himself to the point of dying for her. That kind of sacrifice is more than submission and is more of an opposite of dominating rule than submission is.”

I agree with your statement here and it would be “nice” if men and women of God understood this concept and applied it to their lives more. However, it seems that people in general “get” more specific statements like “wives submit/obey your husbands” as the last 2,000 years have proved as Christian men have still “ruled” and excercised “authority” over their “submissive” wives in many cases to the point of abuse since the days of Paul (I’m not implying that all are abusive as I’ve seen many lovely men of God love their wives sacrificially even while believing they were the final authority).
True that many men and women in churches are ignorant sheep, not reading and comparing all of Scripture, nor dividing rightly as we are told to do, but rather following ignorantly what man teaches. However, there have been so many great men of God throughout the centuries that have stood for sound doctrine, yet still have believed and taught the complementarian/hierarchical point of view. I find it difficult to comprehend why this egal understanding has been so “hidden” for so long, and it seems that a simple “husband submit to your wives as unto the Lord” would have saved a lot of women (and men because of their greater burden of “responsibility” than was necessary) a lot of pain and suffering over the years.

Thank you Cheryl for your replies to my questions.

@ 178
I appreciate the picture you have painted about a woman “under authority” never being allowed to mature, or grow up, as per Christ’s intention for the Christian’s life. I’ve never thought of it like that but it makes perfect sense.

I’m sorry if my questions seem obvious and repetitive but I just have to ask until I can get my head around some of the answers. I realise that in Eph 5 all Christians are taught to be in submission to one another which would include a husband and wife relationship, but I still wonder how come it is that there are at least two places where a wife is directly told to be in submission, or obedience, to her husband, while there is never the same clear-cut directive for a husband to be in submission to, or obedient to, his wife?

It would seem to me that the natural inclination of man “to rule over” his wife since the fall would mean that men in general would be the ones that need the clear cut directive to be in submission to his wife rather than the other way around. Why do you think that this is not the case?

Also, why do you think the use of the word “authentein” is used exclusively in this husband/wife relationship concerning false teaching and not used in other portions of Scripture where false teaching is also being addressed? Surely a false teacher in any situation would be practicing spiritual “authentein” over their listeners and would require the same sinister term for this type of authority that Paul used in 1 Tim 2.

TL @130
Most comps would agree that all believers are told to teach the truths of God. It is just that they think women should teach women and men should teach men, unless the man is in a position of authority such as a pastor/teacher etc and would therefore teach an assembly of believers. Within most comp circles I know, a man would not be caught dead teaching a group of women only.

Concerning Lexicons – how do you gauge which one is giving the most accurate rendering of the Greek word?

So how do I know whether the Greek words given in a Lexicon are the right word or not?

TL @127
The Blue Letter Bible Lexicon says the word in that verse is “hypotasso” and not “hypotassomenas”?

Craig @120
Point 3 is more what I’m talking about. 1 Tim 2:11-15 is dealing with a woman teaching her husband, which is different than dealing with a woman teaching men in general. Just because a woman is found to be teaching false doctrine to her husband in 1 Tim 2 doesn’t automatically infer that she would also have been teaching a general assembly in 1 Tim 1. With the cultural barriers, a woman teaching a general assembly just seems unlikely if you are using these passages of Scripture alone.
It is only by comparing other Scriptures that I am starting to get the idea that women were also teachers/deacons etc just as Gengwell commented @124

Gengwell @124
I agree that the teaching/learning of the woman in 1 Tim was in private and not Corporate Worship.

Kay @122
I’ve been “rebellious” for a couple of years now teaching Bible studies to young adults, both men and women, in my own home. I’ve not been sure what exactly the consequences of this “rebellion” might be. hmmm These young couples/singles (in their teens and 20’s) are not church goers but are willing to sit in my living room and learn of the gospel.. so I teach them. Some have gotten saved through my doing this. I’ve not understood why God would have me NOT share with those willing to listen, and I’ve always referred to Aquila and Priscilla teaching Apollos as an example of women teaching men at some points in Scripture. The other “hard” scriptures that have seemed to indicate my wrong doing, I’ve had in the “I don’t understand, but I’m sure God does” basket.
I agree that Titus doesn’t say women can ONLY teach women, but it seems equally wrong for Egals to read into the passage that women CAN teach men from these verses.
The passage does seem to be pointing out the “roles” of men and women, and Titus 2:5 says for wives to be “obedient to their own husbands”.
The word “obedient”
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one’s self, obey
4) to submit to one’s control
5) to yield to one’s admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
This verse seems to be indicating a hierarchical point of view?
Why is it do you think, that there is no same directive for the men to be “obedient to their own wives” if all things are “fair and equal” with husbands having no “authority” within a marriage relationship?

gengwell @112
It is so refreshing to see a father caring for his daughter (and his wife) in such a way! What an exciting time for you. I pray that your daughter’s wedding goes well.
I had never even heard of the terms “comps” and “egal” until a few weeks ago when I came across this website (by accident), but I can concur from experience that the comp view will ALWAYS crush a woman in some way, shape or form… even the “soft” comps.
My mother was widowed at 19, had me 2 days after hearing the news, was saved in a bowling alley 6 weeks after her husband’s death, her life was transformed dramatically, and she headed off to Bible college six months after that with a little girl in tow, as she believed that God had a calling on her life for missions.
However, at Bible college she was taught the woman’s “place” in the home, and was told that her calling by God would only be through her husband’s calling. She met her husband there and they came to Australia as missionaries 35 or so years ago.
While she has the heart of an evangelist and has shared the Word with many, and has led many many people to the Lord over the years… it has all been done “outside of the church” of course. The only time she was ever able to “teach” within church where men were present, was when she gave her testimony… and she always made sure she got some little bit of “preaching” in there! lol
To use your words, my father was also the “typical authoritarian “head of the family” through most of his marriage. And my mother was the typical sweet, dutiful, supportive, “submissive” (in the comp sense of that word) wife. But inside, she was torn up and had some bitterness and heartache stored up.
To be given a gift and calling from God, but then to be told it is His will that you put it aside (literally bury it) and that your “place” is behind your husband to support him in all that he does, submit to him, be in the home (and that usually means the kitchen!… unless it is convenient to the husband for you to be out working a job), and that your “worth” is in childbearing and child-rearing, will eventually have its devastating soul-destroying effects, even if the woman does it willingly and lovingly as her “submissive sacrifice”. It not only affects the wife, but it also affects the views the children will have of God, and their worth in God’s economy.. especially for young girls.

Cheryl… I am still studying and searching all these things out for myself, but I want you to know that I am so blessed to have come across this website, and to be learning about the egal view of Scripture. I’m so glad God has called you in this way, and that my own personal circumstances have pushed me into searching for answers so that I have been able share them with my parents, all the rest of my siblings/family and my brothers and sisters in Christ. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by not only the willingness of all those around me to look at it from this perspective (even the angry ones!), but also how quickly everyone is grasping it! I’m getting texts and emails and phone calls galore with wow! wow! wow! moments on other Scriptures that they’ve all found in support of this view. It is exciting to see people quickened and spurred on in faith with the truth of God’s Word.

gengwall @ 114
Thank you for your explanation. I agree that there are examples within Scripture of women being used by God in different ways, but unfortunately I’ve always been taught that this was God’s exception to His rules. Funny how we learn to read with blinkers on without knowing it. I was stunned when I went and reread the account of Deborah without reading any preconceived ideas into it and found that she wasn’t raised up as God’s last resort just because the men in that day were “weak”.
With the oral laws and traditions of the Jews being so against women, so much so that Paul had to address the issue of head covering in such a way in 1 Cor 11, I’m wondering why he wouldn’t have had to address the issue of women teaching and learning in a public setting much the same way. In 1 Tim 2 we do see Paul letting a woman learn, but this example is within the bounds of husband/wife relationship, not seemingly in a “public” church setting.

Kay @113
I’ve never looked at Titus 2:3 as a permission for women to teach/preach in a public setting, especially where men were involved. Mainly because of vs’ 4 & 5 which say “That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”

Kay @114
I was reading again about Phoebe, and was astonished when I found that the KJV rendering of “servant” in Romans 16:1 comes from the exact same word Paul uses when he calls Timothy and Titus “servants” or “deacons” of their respective churches.

TL @ 108
That is so exciting to know… Once again God proves that He really is the Creator, and knows looooong before science ever does, the purposes and intents of the heart!

To anyone
Given the cultural barring of women from learning or speaking to men in public, why do we assume that women teachers are included within the deceived teachers of 1 Tim 1?
If not wearing a veil would have culturally caused such shame to the woman’s husband (1 Cor 11), then surely a woman teaching a man would also have caused the same cultural status of shame? Are there any Scriptures that specifically say “let a woman teach”?

Craig @ 104
It is a blessing to be of help 🙂

To everyone
This is a little off topic but I’ve just recently discovered a scientific fact that blew my mind.
It seems to me that a lot of these “authority” issues in Scripture come from the use of the term “head” and how we relate to the head in terms of the body. We assume that the “head” is the singular decision making organ of the body and by use of this head/body analogy the man who is the “head” must also be the decision maker in the one flesh unit.

The following is an excerpt from http://www.therealessentials.com/followyourheart.html

QUOTE:
Most of us have been taught that the heart is just a ten-ounce muscle that pumps blood and maintains circulation until we die. Medical science asserts that the brain rules all of the body’s organs, including the heart. However, it is interesting to note that the heart starts beating in the unborn fetus even before the brain has been formed.
Neuroscientists have recently discovered exciting new information about the heart that makes us realize it’s far more complex than we’d ever imagined. Instead of simply pumping blood, it may actually direct and align many systems in the body so that they can function in harmony with one another.
These scientists have found that the heart has its own independent nervous system – a complex system referred to as “the brain in the heart.” There are at least forty thousand neurons (nerve cells) in the heart – as many as are found in various subcortical centers of the brain.
The heart communicates with the brain and the rest of the body in three ways documented by solid scientific evidence: neurologically (through transmissions of nerve impulses), biochemically (through hormones and neurotransmitters), and biophysically (through pressure waves). In addition, growing scientific evidence suggests that the heart may communicate with the brain and body in a fourth way – energetically (through electromagnetic field interactions). Through these biological communication systems, the heart has a significant influence on the function of our brains and all our Systems.
This new scientific evidence shows that the heart uses these methods to send our brain extensive emotional and intuitive signals. Along with this understanding that the heart is in constant communication with the brain, scientists are discovering that our hearts may actually be the “intelligent force” behind the intuitive thoughts and feelings we all experience.
END QUOTE

I’ve always read verses such as Proverbs 23:7, “For as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he,” and not given it too much thought… until now!

@ 83 Cheryl
I continued reading and studying and found the answer to the particular question bothering me. I’m sure though that more questions will come to mind as I continue studying. Thank you for your gracious willingness to give of your time and wisdom. Much appreciated!
The woman who wept over the years of a talent or gift buried and wasted must (or will) touch home to many women I believe. But the new found freedom they have in Christ must also override any sense of loss I would think! That is if they allow the blinkers to come off and see.
I’ve been sharing the first couple of DVD’s with a few men and women the past couple of days and had different responses – some skeptical, some excited, some angry, some scared about where this “new” teaching will go, and what affect it will have on their lives.
I’m also holding a home Bible study group this week, using your DVD’s, for any who want to come and learn. I am excited to see what will come of all this and I’d be happy to share my experiences with you someday.

@88 Craig
Are you asking whether the verse could be read like this:

“But I suffer not a woman to teach [false doctrine to anyone], nor to usurp authority over a man [a particular man], but to learn in silence.”

Thank you Craig.. I was looking through the list of topics on the right and yes, many of the answers to questions I had are there.. but one specific question bothering me I can’t find the answer to! I’ll keep reading.

TL

I found a link online where you can download for free the information that I was going to dig out on Preterism. Actually there are quite a number of really good publications at this website. I’ve found the “Bible Prophecy Handbook” to be an excellent understandable source for understanding end time events.

http://www.heraldofhope.org.au/books.html

Hi Cheryl

My “Women in Ministry – Silenced or Set Free” arrived yesterday! So excited *big grins*! I went to my parent’s home and got them both to watch the first DVD with me last night. That was an interesting experience. I’m taking it to my aunt’s place to watch again tonight… and then my sister’s tomorrow… I MIGHT get to the second DVD over the weekend! lol Where is the best place for me to ask any questions I might have about them so that I’m not putting this post off topic?

I know that you are really busy playing “Bob the Builder” right now so no stress with getting any answers to me.

@71 TL

I have some excellent Bible research refuting the concept that Christ came in 70AD that I can dig out when I get home tonight.

@57 TL
“Our problems come when churches are organized according to worldly requirements. There is a strong mix in most all churches of worldly authorities and spiritual authority. It would be difficult to correct and perfect.”

Have any of you found a local church that operates or functions for the most part with what you would consider the right mix of equality and spiritual authority?

Craig… it does seem that I’m on a journey the same as you. I’m also in Australia (I read on a post elsewhere that you are too) so maybe there’s an “awakening” happening here! lol

Must say that this new school of thought feels kind of like a “free fall”… You know, when a young adult first steps out from under the parent’s “authority” and kind of isn’t sure what to do with all this new found freedom…

They say that a person who’s been in jail for years can’t handle it when they no longer have the “security” of the four walls caging them and the dictation of the wardens governing what/when/how they conduct their lives on a daily basis. I wonder how many women might feel that way when they discover that they are actually free and equal in Christ, in every way, contrary to what they’ve been taught all their lives.

It’s dawning on me that I’ve always been taught and seen the Trinity in a hierarchical way,

1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Spirit

even while at the same time saying that they are Equal and One…

1) God the Father 2) God the Son 3) God the Holy Spirit

and I’ve always been “ok” with this… yet it’s not even logical when I really think about it 🙁

Oh, thanks Gengwall… I didn’t see that.

TL – I think I need to read the suggested category on 1 Cor 11 before I say too much more. This whole concept is foreign to me, and I kind of feel like a fish out of water! I understand Jesus Christ’s divinity, however, I do think that the man Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, was obedient to the Father’s will. Whether this “will” of the Father equated to “authority” or not, I’m unsure. I have always viewed the parent as an “authority” figure, so thinking of God as the “head” of Christ made sense to me. It is all the other problems between human relationships that come with this interpretation that give me pause to question.

Sorry TL, my screen had not refreshed when I posted that last comment, so I did not see your reply.

More simply put, the question I’m asking is this:

Is Christ under God’s authority, “as the head of Christ is God”? Or is God Christ’s source, foundation and beginning?

Sorry if I’m asking the same questions in the same circle, but I’m just struggling to get my head (no pun intended) around the “head” in 1 Cor 11:3 meaning “source” or “foundation” rather than “authority”. Can someone please try and re-explain the interpretation to me?

Cheryl @ 62 said:
“So if the literal “head” in Hebrew can mean source, there is no reason why Paul could not have used the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew rosh which is kephale to mean the source, beginning or capstone. After all if Jesus is the capstone of the church, is not the husband the capstone of the wife? It is the beginning stone where everything else is built upon. It is the foundation, not the ruler.”

I agree through confirmation from other Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the source, beginning, foundation or corner stone of the Church ( Isa 28:16; Eph 2:20 & 1 Pet 2:6 for examples).

But how is the husband the corner stone of the wife? How is he her foundation and how is she built upon the husband? Are you relating this to the woman being made from the man at creation?

Cheryl @ 63
“Let’s see if you measure up to your own advice. Can you admit that the Hebrew equivalent of kephale, the Hebrew word rosh, can mean source or beginning?”

Also, if “head” in this verse does equate to source, beginning, or corner stone, then how does that relate to “and the head of Christ is God”? I don’t know of any verses in Scripture that show that God was Christ’s foundation? Or that God is the corner stone of Christ? (I’m not saying there aren’t any, but just that I do not know of any), however there are other verses which seem to imply Christ’s submission to God’s will, authority, or headship?

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mar 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

MY head is spinning! lol

Thank you for the response Gengwell. Guess I’ve got much studying, reevaluating and praying to do.
God bless

Thank you Kay,
I understand what you are saying about translations, and I do look into the Greek words and meanings as much as I can when studying, but I can’t claim to be a Greek scholar unfortunately.

I do wonder how us poor English speaking countries can know which is the inspired grammar though, given the translation issues? I’ve always understood that the original 1611 KJV was the closest translation to the original manuscripts, but I’m not saying that is Gospel truth. How would I know?

Whatever the case, this explanation of 1 Tim 2:11-15 by Cheryl has been by far the most “real” explanation I’ve ever heard. It fits best with the overall theme and context of Scripture and who Christ is and how He views His Church…

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:20

Hi Cheryl

Whenever I have to do back breaking work (which isn’t very often seeing as I work long hours in an office), I just think of the muscle toning workout that I don’t normally get! Just try and think of all the kilo’s you’re losing (let alone the new studio) and it might make the exhaustion worth it! 😉