Mara

(That post isn’t up yet. It’s scheduled for later today.)

Ditto what Frank said.

Also, I’ve just put up a post at my blog called “Hating People Out Loud” with links to some ugly things men say about women. Because those links were so toxic and spiritual death promoting, I know I had to put up a more positive post soon.
I couldn’t find the youtube video I wanted so decide to link this post of yours instead and am calling it “The Good News in the Face of Hate”.

Very good Cheryl. I’ve linked this post in my blog.

And may God open the eyes of understanding of these men so they can repent from their sins.

LOL.
It wasn’t passive aggressive, it was a straight up question in my mind.
You answered it. Not that it matters one way or another.

Look… if you start bringing up Hyacinth Bucket and accusing the blog host of deceit, expect a response in kind. If you appeal to worldly culture and expect us to just accept it because this is how the world does it, expect a response concerning how ridiculous such an appeal is. Because it is ridiculous.

And if you appeal to the traditions of men but label them, “Natural Order”, expect to get called out on that as well. That argument stinks. Get a better one… one we can at least respect and engage in. Then we can have a conversation.

And above all. Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.
Nothing scream, “NOVICE” louder than that.

P.S.
Cheryl is far more polite than I am. If you would rather talk to her than me, that’s find. Just show a bit of respect. She is very gracious to answer honest questions and concerns.

Sorry, folks, but the continual appeal to the ‘natural order’ or ‘natural flow’ etc is a sorry argument that shoots itself in the foot before it gets out of the starting blocks.

Get a grip! The natural order that you see and want to use as evidence is nothing short of fallen human nature.
We don’t base our understanding of the way things should be base on the natural order. That order was broken beyond repair long ago at the fall.
We, instead, turn to the Author and Finisher of our faith who has thoughts that are higher than our thoughts and ways higher than our ways.
Yet, the heart is deceitfully wicked and looks for ways to put back in place the ‘natural’, fallen, carnal, sinful order that the sinful nature is comfortable with.

Aaron, find a better argument. Yours stinks like rotting flesh.

Aaron (real name or house-priest-wannabe???): “The postmodernists would rewrite those naturally functioning relationships into something dysfunctional, unnatural, sterile, socially acceptable, politically correct.”

These “naturally functioning” relationships, as you would call them, are the result of mankind’s fallen nature. It is a more subtle form of “dog eat dog”, or “king of the hill”. It is something the gentiles have been exercising for, like, ever. It is sinful, fallen, ungodly. At least that is according to the words of Jesus in red who told them, very specifically, that they are not to be called leaders or look to lord over others like the gentiles do.

No, we are looking to rewrite these broken, earthly, carnal relationships into what God wants to rewrite them into, strong, liberating (for both involved), empowering (for both involved), healing (for both involved), spiritually functional, socially transcendent, and politically revolutionary (the way Jesus showed us to live).

Aaron, spend a little more time locating and meditating the bedrock of the words of Jesus and stop listening so much to men who love interpret the words of Paul through their dysfunctional, fallen, carnal lenses of men who love the best seats in the house and church.

The funny thing is that I do remember Lucille Ball was Mame and Streisand was Dolly. It’s the plots I get turned around. Also, I think I like Ball’s portrayal of Mame better than Streisand’s Dolly.
Weird, I know.

The other funny thing about Henry Higgins is he assumes the best, most noble take on his friend’s desire to search for Eliza. But his friend says, “Blast Mr. Higgins, I’m going to miss her.”

And my favorite line of the song is at the very last, “Would I run off and not tell me where I’m going? Why can’t a woman, be like me?”

I’ve seen Hello Dolly but can’t remember that part. (Sometimes I get Hello Dolly mixed up with Mame)

I totally remember the Bill Cosby quote and laughed then and now.

And the “My Fair Lady” song? Classic, classic.
But to get the full effect, one must watch it from beginning to end. Yes, it seems to be poking fun and dragging down the feminine to excess. But watch this clip carefully. In many ways it is subtly poking fun at men, perhaps even more so than women. Either way, the battle of the sexes can’t get much more fun than this:

(My Anti-Spam word is ‘fresh’. I guess this is a good time to freshen our palettes before Christmas.)

gengwall,
😀

I appreciate your honesty.

I think one of the biggest sins we women have to grapple with is fear.
The other ladies can either agree or disagree. And they might come up with the real biggest sin that we face that I’m not thinking of.
But, off the top of my head, I think it is fear.

Fear of so many things. Being abandoned. Being abused. Being unloved.
And this sin also makes us very tempted to toe the line of gender roles. Without the perfect love of Jesus to cast out fear, we will more likely cave to the pressure. Without Paul assuring us that God has not given us a spirit of fear but of love, power, and a sound mind, we have no reason not to fear and will be tempted to trust in men and their words on order and structure and their promises that if we would just follow this order and structure (that they are just sure that God has laid out) that we will be loved, accepted, and protected.

It is a battle for us all.

Gengwall,
There are all sorts of orders and structures.
Our universe is well ordered.
My son and I have been watching History Channel’s “The Universe” and all I can think is how privileged and taken care of we are by the order and structure God has put into place. Have you ever studied our electromagnetic field. Nothing short of Divine planning and structure.

In my psyc class we learned that one of our survival skills is to see patterns and structure and order and to learn from our mistakes.
But the problem with being so good at seeking order and structure is that we see it where it doesn’t exist. And we become superstitious and ‘witches’ have been burnt at the stake because there seemed to be a certain order or structure at how a plague or sickness struck a village.

It is human nature to see and even seek order.

The problem is when God says His ways (even order and structure?) are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9) we still insist that He thinks and structures things the way we do (Psalm 50:21) and find patterns in scripture to support our carnal patterns.

Yet, Jesus, in His own words, written in red in the gospels, set up an order and structure that certain men conveniently sweep under the rug because they like the patterns and structures they can piece together using certain verses from Paul.

I know you are not one of those men and I’m not scolding you at all. I’m just reiterating what I’ve said above while acknowledging the goodness of structures, orders, and patterns in general.

God’s order and structures are higher than those of men. Yet misguided men work feverishly to superimpose their carnal understanding of order on the Divine.

Oh, btw, thanks Cheryl. That’s a real complement coming from you.

It’s crazy how some men are so obsessed with order, isn’t it pinklight?
And they aren’t even suspicious of their own desire to rule over another when Jesus very specifically told His disciples that they SHOULD NOT be looking for ways to make themselves leaders over others. And there is not footnote here to say that it’s okay for men to call themselves leaders of their wives and that women need to be ruled.

Matthew 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Some men look for order and structure based on the limitations of their own minds, hearts, and culture. They assume things about certain passages of scripture that are not clear or even supportable by the rest of the Bible. Then they superimpose this order on the Divine where no such human order exists.
Then these men work tirelessly to enforce their manmade order and structure on others, shouting, “Thus saith the Lord, thus saith the Lord,” when God has said no such thing.
Thus, these men break the commands of God by taking the Lord’s name in vain. Because they have said that God said something that God has not said.

Have you read the book yet, Cindy?
What makes it so miserable and confusing, besides the fact that it was written by Baucham.

Yeah, ol’ Phil would like to shut us up, wouldn’t he.
He’d also like the think that God agrees with him, doesn’t he.
Too bad ol’ Phil has such lousy discernment concerning women and is blinded by his own entitlement.

Am I going to keep drawing attention to certain errors?

You betcha.

Women have been force fed a male-biased gospel for far too long. Female discernment has been shut down for far too long. It is the responsibility of all Christians to walk in discernment and no amount of scolding and shaming from a misguided man is going to stop me.

Taylor, I’m so sorry that there are people out there that feel it is their duty to ‘set you straight’ and try to discourage you from pursuing your gifts.
“Forgive them for they know not what they do,”
and
“It is better to fear God than man.”
Please be encouraged that even though people discriminate against you because of your gender, God absolutely doesn’t, nor does He approve those that do.
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT bury your gifts because of the ignorance and prejudices of others. You answer to God, not to them.
And read more here, Cheryl has a lot of good teaching of women in ministry.

Looks like we scared another one away, ladies and gentlemen. 😉

Why is the truth of equality so frightening.

Okay, I admit, my approach is not always the most gracious. I really do let my frustration with blatant and off-balanced cherry-picking get to me.

But even so, I don’t call name or question motives or even question salvations (as many comps often do). If Heidi’s argument is so strong, why can’t she stay and prove and defend it?

Heidi: “Your husband will begin to adore and honor you as you lift him up ,and you reverence him as you would Christ. ‘At the cross at the cross where I first saw the light and the burdens of my heart rolled away.
It was there by faith I received my sight and now I am happy all the day.”’

The Cross of Christ has nothing to do with making the husband boss. Why do you wrap your salvation up in hierarchy when Jesus specifically stated, “NOT SO AMONG YOU”

Jesus said that we are not to rule over one another as the gentiles do, that whoever wanted to be the greatest needed to make themselves the least. Jesus came to destroy hierarchy yet people use the words of Paul to build back up the wall that Jesus came to tear down.

Paul wrote in his letters to follow him AS HE FOLLOWED CHRIST. Where the words of Paul and the words of Christ contradict due to translation misunderstanding or cultural misunderstanding, you go with the words of Jesus as your foundation and starting point, not to Paul’s words. You DON’T ignore the words of Jesus in order to follow the words of Paul. You look at the words of Jesus and try to figure out what Paul is saying with the words of Jesus as his foundation or starting point.

Concerning hierarchy Jesus specifically said, “Not so among you.”
So what was Paul saying?
He said, as one mentioned above, “Submit to one another” (Ephe 5:21) Then he goes on the help the people in that highly hierarchal culture know what that would look like. Men, who were in the higher position in that culture, needed to lay their lives down, like Christ did. Women, who already were in the subordinate position simply need to to submit as all were instructed.

The man would be the harder one to teach on submission since his culture taught him the opposite, so Paul used the picture of Christ, you know, washing the disciples feet (something only slaves and women did) and dying on a cross (a punishment usually reserved for slaves, male and female). He used that picture to help husbands understand that submitting and laying down of their lives in the kingdom of God is noble, right, and good, not, according to fleshly standards, demeaning, low, and dirty (like the cultural view of women and slaves).

As someone mentioned above…

You MUST take into considereations the WHOLE counsel of scripture and not focus on a puny smattering of hand-picked scriptures that male preachers have historically given too much importance to.

I’m sure she was taught that by men who are convinced that women are greatly limited in areas where men aren’t.

If she wasn’t taught that about Deborah specifically, she WAS taught that women are limited so that she must work to make it reconcile somehow with the story of Deborah that blows the lid off off the, “Women can never be lead but must ALWAYS follow” doctrine of men that is so prevailent in the church today.

Rob: There is no way I would submit to the teaching authority of a woman. Period:

Rob, however you want to screw up your own life, insult God, and miss out on some incredible blessing, that’s your own choice.

“I am a complementarian because I don’t see any other way to understand God’s word on the issue.”

One reason you don’t see any other way is because you have only been shown one way and told that any one who dosen’t hold to this single view doesn’t respect scripture.

Keep in mind a couple things. There are centuries of tradition and prejudice against women that back up the complementarian view. For most of those centuries only men with a bias view of women (due to their culture*) have been allowed to handle and translate the Word. If, instead, women had been the gate keepers of the origianal Greek and Hebrew and were the ones who decided which verses were more important and to be lifted up and which verses were to be ignored or swept away, our understanding of the Bible and gender would be very different.

* An example of blatant bias against women only 450 years ago:
“Five years earlier, in 1647, Fox was both a seeker and a finder. He met with various people and groups, but none spoke to his condition. One group, “held [that] women have no souls…no more than a goose.” Fox responded by quoting Scripture, where Mary, the mother of Jesus, said, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior.” [Luke 1:46-47] ”
Taken from:
http://trilogy.brynmawr.edu/speccoll/quakersandslavery/commentary/themes/radical_quaker_women.php

TL:”Pride is one of those insidious bits of darkness that it is ready to sneak into ones life the minute one claims they are free from it.”

Oh dear. My eyes played tricks on me again. I think I need glasses.

I thought you said that PIPER is one of those insidious bits of darkness…

And I thought, “TL, don’t you think that’s a bit extreme?
Then I went back and saw you said, “Pride, not Piper.”

Whew. I’m relieved. I was afraid I was goint to have to say, “Now, now, TL. He’s not evil incarnate. He’s just a regular dude trying to make his way in the world and screwing up just like we all do.”

Sheesh. I’ll have to be more careful about my reading.

Huh?

What the heck?

God never made male and female sin to be different from on another. The ten commandments apply to both equally. The two greatest commandments issued from the mouth of Jesus Christ, “love the Lord you God… and love your neighbor as yourself…” have not gender considerations.

Pulling Paul’s words out of context, words that Peter himself found confusing doesn’t make for clear understanding of anything. Peter was a contemporary of Paul who spoke the same language as Paul but says in his letters that Paul’s words are difficult to understand.

Men fool themselves when they say Paul’s words are clear. Translators have a hard time trying to figure out what Paul meant on so many levels.

The words of Jesus, however, are very clear. He made no distiction between male and female sins.

It is not a sin for a woman to preach or teach men. If it were so grievious a sin, Jesus would have made it clear and never let the woman at the well go to the men of the town and preach to them. Nor would He have ever, ever, ever sent the women from the empty tomb to preach the good news. And he would have never scold the men for not listening to and believing the women Jesus sent. If it were so bad for women to preach or teach, Jesus would have told the men first, not the women.

Paul’s words are only ‘clear’ to you because men translate them a certain way then tell each other it means this or that.

They are not clear, nor is the one on women being saved in childbearing clear. It makes about no sense. Yet people are so sure it is so clear even when their version of what is says totally contradicts the whole rest of the Bible and the very actions of Jesus Christ, Himself.

I know what Gengwall meant.

He didn’t name one of the lions, Rex and one of the cheetahs, Flash. He gave a name or catagory for all of their kind.

I have no idea what it will do and have more of a wait and see attitude.
But I do know that CBMW needs to be taken to task for the violence they have done to the Gospel. And I’m pretty sure any reasoning on the part of egals will do nothing.
It has done nothing so far.
Perhaps it’s time for a more direct, in your face, approach.

I’ll have to wait and see how this all works out.

What else is there to do?
Except agree with these ladies and state, point blank, that they are not exaggerating when the speak of the negative effects the Danvers and CBMW have caused.
It is well past time for such faulty, unchristian garbage to be challenged, and challenged strongly.

Speaking of a humble God, this video on youtube speaks to me concerning this. Watch only if you love children. It’s called “God’s Ways are not our Ways.”

Funny, the anti-spam word for me this time is ‘ways’. 🙂

gengwall,
I saw Princes Bride.
I know about rodents of sporting Giants.

Have you seen the bumper sticker (I think that’s what they call it on the computer, facebook, shoutlife) that looks like the standard name tag? It has the “HELLO my name is” at the top and
“Indigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die!” written in the place where the person is supposed to write in their name?
I rarely LOL. But I did when I saw that bumper sticker.

Is your disappointment any less?

Speaking of John Piper…

How is he doing anyway?
Anyone heard?

Yes, Kay.
And it is our culture, not God, that demands someone be the leader in a marriage. It is our culture that looks at two people, not a group, just two people, and determines… one MUST be the leader and the other the follower, there can be no partnership.
God creates partnerships, fellowships. The world creates hiearchies.

It is a childish game ‘king of the hill’ forcing its way into marriage from our culture. It is man’s way, the way of tradition and the fallen sin-nature of the flesh. Not God’s way.

No matter how many scriptures taken out of context and twisted and read into, you cannot support male rulership as “God’s best”.
It exists because of sin, not because of God’s design.

gengwall,
I loved Wild At Heart, for me. As I read it, I thought it might be awesome for men too. So I had my husband read it. It had a horrible effect on him.

“I’m a man. I can say what I want, be rude if I want. And if you tell me I can’t, you are trying to make me into a woman.”

It was awful. Instead of giving him spiritual freedom, it turned him into a jerk.

I love the idea of being wild and free in the Lord. I felt that book helped me with it because somehow God used it to help me. Guess I wasn’t indoctrinated enough at the time to realize that being wild and free didn’t really apply to me, a female created inside the garden…

Good thing for me. A pity for any woman reading it who couldn’t receive the wild and free part.

And a pity for men who couldn’t handle such information and used the liberty Elderidge tried to give them as an excuse to sin against their families.

A real pity.