truthseeker

You guys are all funny! Humor is a blessing in a land dark with curses! Paula, rue the day, though we may see it, when we have to shout unclean. Good point, though! I am surprised it hasn’t happened somewhere yet. Religious practice in so many places has truly taken on the likeness of Islamic practice, hasn’t it? All the hush-hushing of women and concern for their proper covering! I bet the lepers preferred to be outside the camp in their own community. I bet they didn’t rag on each other there! At least not for being lepers.

Seaver’s comment that “they seem to make an assumption that they can declare who has the authority in the church to teach…” truly makes me laugh! Is he not doing the very same thing-assuming he can declare-based on his interpretation of scripture-who has the authority in the church to teach?????

I have breathed comp air long enough to know that when it is coming from them, it is ‘the biblical view’ but when it comes from others with whom they disagree, it is ‘their sinful view’. There ain’t no winnin’ for losin’ with that kind of thinking.

I also know that comps-some-will explain away each and every verse that seems to contradict their own often by forcing it into a narrow time capsule. For example, the four daughters who prophesied…”Well, that was in the book of Acts and we know that was just the time period when the new church was being established, when sign miracles and such were being used to get the church off the ground, that isn’t for now.” On and on it goes. I know because I have heard it.

One day, in complete ungodly exasperation, I blurted out that ‘THAT isn’t even logical!” to some cockamamie ‘biblical’ explanation I had just heard. To that I was told-get this-“Well God ISN’T logical. His ways are beyond our ways. The foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of man.”

If that isn’t the absolutely best ‘get out of jam free’ card that a comp could have in his pocket, I don’t know what is! I can hear it now, ‘Buy a hundred and give them to all your friends!” So now, there is no more rightly dividing the word of truth because how can we know anyway? So, how can comps know? If they think their thinking makes ‘sense’ in light of what the bible says, and yet out the other side of the mouth they can say that sometimes God is illogical, then how in the blight can THEY be sure that what THEY are claiming is biblical and true and right and swearworthy and apple pie and baseball and all-American and true blue and ??????????

The Holy Spirit truly has to look for a hole in their armour and work the light of truth into their thinking through that opening, however tiny it may at first be. To that end I pray, and only occasionally open my mouth to let out deadly feminine vapors. Maybe now, it would be ok for women to preach and let out ‘airs’ if comp men covered their noses-not heads-with gas masks.

Sorry, I had to get that out. None of this is truly funny because it is doing so MUCH harm to so many individuals and groups. The notion of ‘mild’ compism being any better than hard-core is a misnomer, too. Oppression is oppression, no matter how thin the slice. “Would you like a thick or a thin slice of poison with your ice cream, ma’am?” Just give me the ice cream.

Cheryl, your remarks about the critical value of properly understanding the Trinity are extremely important. It is a or the kingpin upon which the hierarchical theory depends.

Your dialogue here with Gengwall sure touches on the necessary finer points and implications of the meaning of head. I think you are right when you say that women who have been subdued for so long may be gunshy at even the thought of having to ‘serve’ their husbands or anyone else in the proper sense of that word.
LOL at the fowl howl foul-up!!!! Bowels of mercy to one and all!

ooops. I meant ‘allowed” in the third paragraph, not ‘aloud’.

Anonymous, I understand the nightmare of discovering the truth while within the confines of a family or marriage which believes otherwise. It can be devastating. It was for me. Now, I am gradually coming to trust God for even this situation. He is working within it at the very least by allowing me to learn far more about this topic than I had ever imagined doing. Where it will go from here, I don’t know.

I would encourage Anonymous to hang in there, and never lose hope that God can’t use you. Instead of being a missionary to people in some distant land, in time, you may well become a missionary to those women and men around you who are caught up in the darkness of complementarian theology. Darkness is darkness-whether overseas or here.

For now, let God continue to heal your wounds and draw you close. I continue to be amazed at how He provides unexpected comfort, wisdom, etc. as I have struggled and groped my way through this darkness.

You can be sure I will be praying for you, meanwhile! And know that you are not alone among those who have left their spouse’s and family’s churches. I have had to, and my spouse and I are not of like mind on this topic so we do separate things on Sunday mornings. It is not ideal, but it is what I came to feel I had to do in order to not violate my conscience and because hearing the untruths spoken from his church about women became too much for me. I was not aloud to say much about it in return, so why continue to go there? I did not even want my presence within a comp. congregation to be misunderstood as an endorsement of those teachings.

It meant that for a good long while, I have gone nowhere, except to go on exploratory forays to other churches. I am still not settled into one place. Most Sundays, I just stayed home and read and prayed there. The need to heal was too great. Meanwhile, my ‘fellowship’ consisted of following the comments and articles on various websites and a few phone calls to distant like-minded believers. I am not at all suggesting this is the format for all who have undergone this same experience. It simply happens to be mine.

One of the most common reasons given by women for holding a comp view is simply because it ‘is the way I was raised.’ That is NOT a biblical reason for anything yet even a pastor’s wife gave me that as a reason.

Cheryl, it is sooooo true that many feel they cannot leave. I am blessed (?) to have a spouse who has not been unkind towards me for leaving his comp church though it has certainly caused waves and has not been easy for me at all. I feel for those women who are in danger of losing their families over this. I reached the point where I could no longer go to the comp church. It grieved me too deeply and upset my conscience too strongly. A number of people, including women, urged me to ‘go with my husband to his church’ and I am sick of hearing that.

There is SO much catering to men that goes on in comp world. Women are left to fend for themselves within the horror of comp theology. They have to submerge so much of what God never intended for them to submerge, and they have to live with it.

Lately, I have chosen to say little in my defense. First, because I find that often the other party is not interested other than looking for toeholds for their own beliefs on the matter. Second, because sometimes silence is better, coupled with refusal to participate in a corrupt or misguided system. Nonetheless, I would echo Harriet Tubman’s sentiments regarding slavery. She said she would rather try to escape and die trying than remain enslaved. That is the point I reached regarding remaining within a comp church.

So many excellent comments here. Cheryl, how wise and true it is that we must discern when to cut bait and move on in individual conversations. Gengwall, you have unearthed very interesting info and it is a huge blessing to hear these things from a man, too. Paula, you continue to faithfully answer and post on this site and others. Lin, your insights are right on. I wonder, how do we spread the truth among those entrenched within their church bastions? I have made the choice to leave my spouse’s church, and have been invited back most kindly, but cannot. Some choose to remain in their comp churches to avoid division and strife, but I have come to believe there comes a point when leaving may be the best decision, the best stance. Meanwhile, I wish I could mail each household that remains in that comp church information on another view of this whole debate. Yet, I know enough to know that I would be considered a wolf, and would be preached against as such. Somehow, these women will have to learn of these things on their own. I have to trust that God will open the right doors at the right time, and He may or may not use me. I pray, meanwhile, for the blind to see.

gengwall, that is very telling research, isn’t it? So, 25 usages of head regarding families in the OT and how many examples of women in leading roles might we also find in the OT, as if somehow might makes right?! For many comps, it only has to be by inference, due to the fact that ‘men’ were chosen for the census, that they take license to give men the lead. If only they would consider what truly is and isn’t being said in the bible. I agree, too, that is is nonsense due to the implications for unmarried women, the men away for battle, etc., yet comps then come up with some other mush about ‘well, there are still men remaining in the camp that serve as a covering or head’ when, in fact, no such description or mandate exists. Yes, isn’t the Proverbs 31 woman a remarkably unwimpy example of women?! Again, having now heard much comp thought, I can only guess that somehow they see her as in subordination because her husband sits at the gate with the other men, and all are heads, so she is subordinate. They take a LOT of liberty when it works in their favor but none when it could be used against them, as in Eve being created last therefore she is the best, Jesus being born of a woman, and many other examples that using their type of thinking would make women the ‘logical’ heads.

gengwall, I will get myself thence to thy site and see what you have written.

gengwall, I just posted then saw your last post. I agree that source has a bit of difficulty being applied to the Ephesians’ passage. The fact that ‘head’ means different things in different places shouldn’t be problematic as Paula so clearly exemplified in her earlier humorous example (#55).

gengwall, I really appreciate your taking the time to respond because you are clearing up some things I have continued to wonder about.

You are absolutely right, the bible doesn’t describe husbands as helpers yet we know that men/husbands do helping actions. Paul does describe and exhort men and ‘brethren’ as helpers and to help (at the beginning and end of various of his letters), so we know they do have helping capabilities, and women are told to rule their households well, so we know women have ruling capabilities, but you are correct in pointing out that these things are never stated with reference to marriage. Thanks for making that point because it is one angle I had not seen before, that men being head doesn’t have to be synonymous with exclusive job description any more than does women as helpers or ezers. That is a huge piece of the puzzle that was missing somehow.

You are also right that there is NO description of what men or women are to do (‘roles’) unilaterally in marriage. That is where the comp belief always gets hung up though it isn’t ever admitted by them.

Excellent observations in your last two paragraphs, also. I need to look up all passages pertaining to Christ and His bride in this light. Also very good point about Christ conquering corrupt spousal rule as the Second Adam! (for some comps, that wouldn’t suffice, because they think spousal rule was a prefall attribute due to Adam having been created or formed before Eve. That will have to remain their dilemma.)

gengwall, I can understand your caution in putting forth a statement about head not meaning source. I had to laugh when you pleaded with folk to not freak out. 🙂 I had my spear ready so raising your white flag from miles away was a good thing! 🙂

I can see that you have thought this out, and I am personally grateful you aren’t into hierarchy. What I am puzzled by in the husband is head context is that whatever it is somehow is separate from what women are. Women are never referred to as head so it would seem that somehow, whatever the meaning of head is in the ‘head’ passages referring to men or husbands would have to be their exclusive domain. Just logically speaking. (I had a comp tell me, when backed to a wall that God isn’t logical, so comps sometimes give themselves terrific ‘get out of jams free’ cards.) I am still chewing what you have written.

Our culture has such a strong concept of leadership attached to certain words that I suspect it might even be hard to separate ‘boss’ from ‘team captain.’ I think most people would instantly think of a team captain as a boss or leader rather than as a guardian though I agree with your definition. Guardian makes the most sense, though. Maybe simply sticking to a term like guardian and even gardener (since gardeners nourish, tend to, lovingly care for, etc., without having to be despots. Of course, gardeners eat what they so tenderly care for in the end, so we might not want to carry the analogy too far!)

I do think source makes the most sense in the passage speaking of Christ being the head of every man, man being the head of woman, and God being the head of Christ, however. Thoughts?

gengwall, I agree with everything you have stated about the difficulty comps have in clearly and practically defining headship. I have had that discussion with comps, also, and have never gotten anything but mush in response, especially when they are asked to back it up with scripture. A vague rubber-stamping of final decisions is usually in the mix, as is the concept that women can’t teach men. I think it would be terrific to see all comp women in one church, even, or one marriage, follow comp thinking to a T for a period of time. No thinking for oneself, just constantly asking the husband what to do about EVERYTHING. Very quickly the lunacy of the whole concept would become apparent, though I still think comps would find ways to justify their position. I think it would be thus; they would quickly point out that the bible did NOT say women could not do certain things (ie whatever they do happen to want their women to be able to do) yet they would still cling to whatever it is they think (or wish) women should not be allowed to do.

gengwall, what conclusion have you come to about what head means in the various contested passages in the bible? I have only heard patriarchy and source given as two possible meanings up to this point.

This one is courtesy of Paula (Words of a Fether), from another communication, and it is a hoot!!!! Thank you, Paula! We were discussing the passage about headship-Christ the head of every man, etc. Several lines later it speaks of woman needing to cover her head…as Paula pointed out, perhaps this means women should be putting the little lace doily headcoverings on their husbands to wear if the husbands are their wife’s head!!!! I picture lots of men walking into church properly ‘laced’ next Sunday!

Lin and Gengwall, thanks for your comments. You are both blessings in a ‘dark land’. The place where compism seems to especially reveal its shortcomings is in the practical application. The simple fact that so many churches ‘do’ compism differently is the first indicator. One church may allow women to lead singing and help with adult classes, another may allow the lead singing but not the adult teaching, etc. Defining the ‘job description’ or ‘roles’ is tough for them, I believe, because the bible gives no clear-cut description because it doesn’t prescribe such roles. One would think that something as important as ‘headship’, as comps mean it, would come with a very clear job description. After all, in the O.T., God was very clear, down to minute details of dress, even, about what the priests could and could not do, and what the people could and could not do. So why would He have not done the same in the NT regarding so-called headship roles if He did indeed establish them?

It is so true that women have to become manipulators or puppeteers within comp theology. I think that is demeaning of men. As I have said elsewhere, one comp pastor’s wife was heard to say about this matter, “Well, come on, you know it is the neck that turns the head anyway.” To me, that makes the man out to be a dummy, which he is not-any more than is the woman. It seems highly disrespectful to manipulate a man-every bit as disrespectful as it is to diminish women’s capacities.

Gengwall, your observation that we are really opposing powers of darkness rather than people is true, and very helpful. It can feel like ‘us’ against ‘them’ which is easily divisive, rather than, “Father, help them and forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Paula, in #16, you have hit the nail on the head in terms of what happens in comp/egal conversations. It is maddening but true. Thanks for giving it a humorous gloss! I had a similar real-life conversation late yesterday and it was painful in its circularity. Frustrating, too. Circular thinking never sees itself for what it is unfortunately.

Thanks, Paula, that does help. I have a lot to learn.

As an outsider, I think it could be helpful for Don and Cheryl, at the least, (others are welcome, too) to give a simple explanation on how one determines what is allegory, poem, fact, expression, etc. as a way of defining the basic ‘playing field’ or parameters. I say this for several reasons:

First, years ago I took a course on the Wisdom books of the bible at a so-called Christian university, and the professor did indeed define some passages as wisdom literature that was common to the time, not just to Christianity, etc., some things as poetry, some as fact, etc. There may be persons who come to this blog who have questions about this, either not having studied as much as some of you or having had very persuasive teaching on several sides of the issue.

Second, strictly for the purposes of this discussion, there would be no ambiguity about where the primary proponents stand with regard to the basic ‘rules of the game’, the guidelines by which one determines a poem, fact, allegory, etc. As one who is clearly less educated on these matters I would welcome such definition.

Third, I have noticed that in the debate between comps and egals, it is not always clear how one determines what is plain reading, expression, word play, contextually-dependent, etc. I think these ‘housekeeping matters’-matters of definition-likely plague all good discussions. If we can alleviate some of this by establishing baseline understandings, it would be helpful not only for this discussion but also for the egal/comp. discussion and others.

I suggest this with all due respect to each of you who have contributed to this particular blog subject thus far. I am humbly learning as this is not an area of expertise for me by any means.

Isn’t that the truth-‘woe to anyone who tries to lift it!’ Shows that there must be more to it than it just being a ‘command from God.’

So you mean the light at the end of the comp/egal debate tunnel isn’t a train carrying more…..jello? 🙂

Yes, Paula. Plain reading. Only when it suits the agenda. To the last question, “why would anyone want to be a permanent head over someone else,” the reply I have heard is, “If God commands it, who am I to question?” Circular thinking is rampant in compism ‘logic’ to give it even a weak semblance of staying afloat.

Back to nailing jello….

Paula, you make excellent points. I had not thought of the fact that if Titus is used to say women can only teach women, then correspondingly, men can only teach men. The comps I know would say that this verse has to subordinate itself to the passage elsewhere which says a woman is not permitted to teach a man or be in authority over him. Of course, we know there is more to that verse than they allow, but that is how they would justify the Titus dilemma.

You know, of course, that I disagree. I just point it out because it is a line of response they take. I wonder, was the Titus passage written before or after the other passage? Even so, they would still find a way to say the earlier passage is subordinate to the later passage. Where’s a hammer? I feel a real urge to try to nail some jello to a wall somewhere….!

Dr. Barb, I just peeked at your site and can’t wait to finish reading all that you have written. Those of us who have experienced spiritual abuse need not only the correct facts and understanding of what the bible teaches on these matters, but also healing and restoration within our spirits and our lives. It looks like you address this latter aspect, especially, in your research. Many, many thanks!

Cheryl, and Dr. Barb, thank you for your comments! Cheryl, thanks for fixing my run-on paragraph!! 🙂 Yes, this is a painful time for me because of this issue and my current lack of local, like-minded fellowship. There is no end in sight to the situation, either, so I need to learn to rise above it with grace and hope and victory, despite the contrary beliefs of those around me and their comments. And pray!

“Draw near to God and He will draw near to you”, and “Be still and know that I am God” are both very meaningful passages for me during this time, as is “Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”

Dr. Barb, I was not acquainted with Stan Grenz’s work (nor you and your website, etc., for that matter!) and look forward to reading it! Thanks! I found a free online version so that is helpful, too.

Thank you, Tiro, I do hope for better days!

I think that for many in the comp Christian realm-according to comments I have heard, the notion of the man being head has its appeal in part because it has the essence, in some ways, of chivalrous times, of knights in white armor rescuing and caring for their fair maidens. It has a bit of a fairy tale feel to it. The truth is, one can have chivalrous and ladylike behaviors, respectively, without sacrificing spiritual equality and mutuality. A man can open the door for me without having to be my ‘boss’. A woman can receive such gestures without having to sell her soul. These things can just be good manners-per the culture-without having any authority implications.

I also think many women especially are not too uncomfortable with being in comp marriages and churches because 1. their husbands may in truth function as egalitarians within the marriage, and 2. they may have no desire or calling for ministry positions that are typically filled by men in their churches so the status quo doesn’t really step on their toes. Just my too senseless worth.

My apologies for not providing better paragraph breaks and indentations-what a thick mass of a thing to wade through!

I just read this blog trail so my comments here are late, but I, too, want to thank all of you for this place, your own websites, and your comments. You are my church right now and have been for over a year. The things Lin pointed out in #5 are very true. It can be very difficult to share about one’s struggles. I like the idea of truly biblical gatherings such as homegroup-style churches but they can be very very difficult to find. Regular churches have ads, websites, etc. I have been trying to find an egal ‘home church’ in my area and have had no luck so far. I have found some egal churches in my area and have met with the pastors, a few of whom felt strongly that I should be attending my spouse’s church (very strict fundamental church-which I left), and nearly all of which believe in some degree of male ‘headship’ in marriage though not in church function. So far, all were male pastors. It is extremely difficult to find a truly and completely egal church that does not at the same time endorse gay theology. Interestingly, the item of ‘headship’ that the most egal of them still clung to was the notion that in a situation needing a ‘tie-breaker’, the husband would be the one to decide. This strikes me as odd in that it implies that women, even those who are allowed full contribution within the corporate church setting, just somehow cannot be counted upon to make a good decision or be tie breakers themselves within a marriage. Why is it a given that unsolvable stand-offs will be inevitable? That a couple will come to a place where they will not be able to make a decision mutually (even if that means one or both come to change their stance voluntarily)? That the Holy Spirit cannot bring them to a place of agreement?

The way many churches are structured, even the egal ones, it is tough to make relational inroads very quickly. The main services themselves do not lend to much interaction that is genuine nor to each contributing what God has placed on their hearts. Sunday schools or midweek groups then become the second choice and they are many times just micro versions of Sunday service, that is, they have a speaker, songs, prayer, and maybe a bit of time for discussion or open interaction/fellowship (and I don’t mean just at the ‘cookies and milk’ time).

The other difficult thing about being married and looking for a church is that if one’s spouse does not accompany you, and yet is going to a church, it can make folk really raise their eyebrows at you, especially if you are a woman-even in a so-called egal church. I was told by the pastor of one such church that God must have some things for me to learn about submission. I was aghast and angry. I wondered why he didn’t assume that God had some things for my husband to learn about love or submission? Male authority is so deeply ingrained. I was also recently told that if I loved my husband I would go with him to his church. So now church attendance is no longer about fellowship with like-minded ones, it is about ‘loving and supporting one’s spouse’? So why isn’t it ever suggested that my husband be the one to do so? Even by these so-called egals?

I still pray for some crumb of local fellowship but don’t know if it will ever happen. My consolation and encouragement are the stories of Christians who spent years in isolated prisons for their faith, and died there. That is, they never ever again had warm, in-person fellowship in this life. I hope I do someday. Meanwhile, you all are precious to me as cyber sisters and brothers in Christ. Like Mike, I may only rarely comment, but I do visit the sites frequently-especially on Sundays.