Charis

SO, I was looking at “hope” verses…
nothing to do with the thread, really, more to do with my own life…
But, this kinda jumped out at me. I’m not used to reading it in KJV.

Ro 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

And it made me think of Adam and Eve and God’s prounouncements after the Fall (NOT curses, but certainly “consequences”)

Got me to wondering if “your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you” is vanity to which God subjected Eve in HOPE?

I have to correct myself.
I was accustomed to thinking that God had cursed Eve, and I probably posted that 🙁
Please forgive me for misrepresenting God.
There was no curse on Eve. Only the serpent and the ground was cursed. (Gen 3:14,17)

Just rambling a bit.

I was thinking about the Adam and Eve thing. That idea that Adam knew he was going to die, he wasn’t deceived. And that the tree will make him “like god”. I am married to a patriarchal man. In a way, he seems to want to be “like god”. That drive to control and micromanage every decision that every person in the household makes…. And I really did used to put him on a pedestal and think that is how GOD wanted it: every little thing had to go through my husband… (your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you)

On my 25th wedding anniversary (which was Tues), I had birth pangs (BAD) and revelation (GOOD 🙂 )!!! I’m doing Beth Moore’s study Beloved Disciple and I really think she wrote week 2 for me! 🙂 She points this out Luke 9:52-55 where the disciples ask Jesus if they should call down fire to burn those Samaritans to a crisp because they didn’t welcome Jesus. Boy, do I resemble those disciples sometimes! Its a good thing I am not God!

I think things would be great if only my husband would (give up his addictions)…. The revelation God showed me that HE is quite interested in working on yours truly: on ME! Yikes! OK, Lord! Actually it feels really good and freeing to realize that… But, I get scared when I look at what he is doing (his addictions) and then I get angry at him but my anger just makes a worse mess 🙁 I realized I am trying to protect myself and my children, but my way doesn’t work, it is counterproductive. What is God’s way? And HE showed me… HE wants me to 1John 5:16. So, I am trusting God that the next 25 years will be years of LIFE!

I have a new article that needs to be given birth to (hopefully soon) so hope you guys can have patience with me. Have you ever had birth pains with an article? I think the pains will be there until I can get it out. Oh, Lord, help me to have time for all the ministry that you have given me, without ignoring my family (my mother-in-law especially!)

Lord, I pray that you would pour grace and strength into Cheryl to do the good works you have prepared in advance for her. I pray that she would cast off every yoke that is not from you and walk with YOU through each moment of each day. Bless her!

I haven’t had those birth pains with an article, but I have them with revelation. I hurt, hurt, hurt and then its like another veil comes off and I see the LIGHT clearer as God enlightens the eyes of my heart.

“For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. ” Eph 1:15-19

(WHAT prayer! I love Paul! :D)

Thanks Charis ,

I printed out your comments/Teaching on the Tree Of Knowledge! I think…I know you worded it better then me! Thanks so much for your Godly insight on these very deep things of God’s Word!

Michael, you deserve the credit, not I. Your thoughts came straight from your own heart and mind. Mine came right from a book, man! Your thoughts reminded me of what I had read. You were onto the same thing as Joyner! I think that means you both have the ears to hear from the same Spirit.

“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. “

While I am looking at quotes… My 21 yos told me he read “Blue Like Jazz” FOUR TIMES!!! and really liked it, so I ordered him another Donald Miller book as a gift (and I had to peek 😉 )

I thought Donald Millers description of Adam and Eve was very sweet, and he thinks about things, and so do I:
quoted from Searching for God Knows What

But here is Adam, the only perfect guy in the world, and he is going around wanting to be with somebody else, needing another person to fulfill a certain emptiness in his life. And as I said, when God saw this, He did not create Eve right away. He did not give Adam what he needed immediately. He waited. He told Adam to name the animals….

I looked up how many animals there are in the world… and Adam, apparently, had to name all of them. And the entire time he was lonely.

I never thought of Adam the same again… this was a man who, despite feeling a certain need for a companion, performed what must have been nearly one hundred years of work, naming and perhaps even categorizing the animals… Moses said that Eve didn’t give birth to their third child till Adam was well into his hundreds, which means they would have had Cain and Abel some thirty or so years before, which also means either it took Adam more than a hundred years to name the animals, or he and Eve didn’t have sex for a good, long, boring century. And so in my mind, I began to see Adam as a lonely naturalist…

The thing is, when Adam finished naming the animals, after all his work and effort, God put him to sleep, took a rib out of his side, and fashioned a woman. I had read that part a thousand times, too, but I don’t think I quite realized how beautiful that moment was… So here was this guy who was intensely relational, needing other people, and in order to cause him to appreciate the gift of companionship, God had him hang out with chimps for a couple hundred years. Its quite beautiful, really. God directed Adam’s steps so that when He created Eve, Adam would have the utmost appreciation, respect, and gratitude.

I think it was smart of God because today, now that there are women all around and a guy can go on the Internet and see them naked anytime he wants, the whole species has been devalued. I read recently where one out of every four women, by the time they reach thirty , are sexually harassed, molested, or raped. And then I thought how very beautiful it was that God made Adam work for so long because there is no way, after a hundred years of being alone, looking for somebody whom you could connect with in your soul, that you would take advantage of a woman once you met one. She would be the most precious creation in all the world…

I’ll bet Adam felt loved by God, like he was somebody God was always trying to bless and surprise with amazing experiences, and I’ll bet they talked together about how beautiful Eve was and how wonderful it was that the two of them could know her, and I would imagine that Eve felt safe, loved, not used or gawked at, but appreciated and admired….

I started asking myself why Moses would say five times that people were naked before the Fall, but after the Fall they went around with clothes on… The very first thing that happened after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was that they noticed they were naked. And man, I couldn’t stop thinking about how whatever happened at the Fall made them aware they were naked…

Here is what I think Moses was saying: Man is wired so he gets his glory (his security, his understanding of value, his feeling of purpose, his feeling of rightness with his Maker, his security for eternity) from God, and this relationship is so strong, and God’s love is so pure, that Adam and Eve felt no insecurity at all, so much so that they walked around naked and didn’t even realize they were naked. But when that relationship was broken, they knew it instantly. All of their glory, the glory that came from God, was gone…

I used to think that when the Fall happened, man started lusting, getting angry, getting jealous, coveting, stealing, lying, and cheating because, in the absence of God, he became a bad person…
And then it hit me how awful it must have been for Adam and Eve… to have been tricked by Satan into breaking their relationship with God.

You and I have it easier. We were born this way. But I remember loving a girl back in Colorado and having her explain to me she didn’t feel the same and how for a year I lived in the attic of an old house in Portland, feeling an ache and emptiness in my heart I thought would never mend…
And this feeling, this feeling must have been so much more painful for Adam and Eve, this feeling of having an infinite amount of love pouring through their lives and then its’s suddenly gone… I wondered at how terrible it must have felt, at the fear of no longer feeling God, at the ache of emptiness and the sudden and horrifying awareness of self. God have mercy.

Thanks Michael 🙂

It was in the Garden where “Self” was born. ME,MYSELF,AND I. The tempation with Eve. The Fruit looked good to ME, To make ME wise/wisdom, To be like God etc.ME ME ME, Me Myself and I.

Jesus said to forsake/denied self! Self: We are our own worse enemy!

That reminds me of something I read regarding the trees being in the CENTER of the garden, and what we choose to be in the CENTER: self or Christ?

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is a powerful Biblical model of the Law…. it is through the Law that we derive our knowledge of good and evil. We may wonder how knowledge brings death until we see the fruit. The knowledge of good and evil kills us by distracting us from the One who is the source of life: The Tree of Life- Jesus. The Tree of Knowledge causes us to focus our attention upon ourselves. Sin is empowered by the law; not just because evil is revealed but the good as well. It drives us either to corruption or self-righteousness, both of which lead to death.

It is significant that the Tree of Knowledge is found in the center of the garden (see Genesis 3:3). Self centeredness is the chief malady with which it afflicts up. After Adam and Eve ate its fruit, their first response was self-inspection. Before eating they had not even noticed their nakedness; their attention was on the Lord and the purposes for which He had created them. After eating, the good and the evil which they now understood forced them to measure themselves by it. There is no easier way to keep us from the Tree of Life than to have us focus our attention upon ourselves. This is what the Law accomplishes. Because of this Paul called it “the ministry of death” and the “ministry of condemnation” (II Cor 3:7,9)

When we define the Tree of Knowledge as the Law, we are not referring only to the Law of Moses. We often think of the OT as the Law and the NT as Grace, but this is not necessarily true. The Old Covenant is the Letter; the New Covenant is the Spirit. If we read the New Testament with an Old Covenant heart it will just be law to us. We=ll have dead religion with righteousness that is based on compliance with written commandments instead of a living relationship with God.
quoted from There Were Two Trees in the Garden

Cheryl said:
The word for “saved” means spiritual salvation and this is a one time happening. But how does she “a woman” get there? She needs to learn the truth (verse 11). The stopping of teaching is connected to deception (verse 14) and it has something to do with being second (verse 13). The big question is why was Adam not deceived? What happened after he was created and before Eve was created that immunized him to the deception of the serpent? That is the key

Is it because she was ignorant?
She was not formed yet when God gave the command.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

I also wonder what it means and if it has any bearing that in 1Peter 3:7 that the woman is “the weaker vessel”. I don’t think it is an insult toward women, a character flaw, nor a design flaw. Somehow it is God’s intention, part of HIS design, and very good.

And, Adam was closer to a pure “image of God” than any other man who ever lived (besides Jesus). It says in 1Tim 2:14 “Adam was not deceived”. He made the decision to eat the fruit before his eyes were open to the knowledge of good and evil which leads to death. What if his motivations were far more noble than what we imagine? Suppose he CHOSE to die by eating the fruit out of LOVE for his wife??? It still transgressed the boundaries God gave him, so it was still sin. The tree which leads to death is not JUST the knowledge of evil. Somehow “the knowledge of good” leads to death too.

Dear Cheryl,
Would it be too much trouble to make another blog entry where you just put YOUR posts from over there? I visited a couple times, but it is too distressing to me to wade through all the disrespect, mocking, and character assassination. But I want to think about what you are saying. I find it very insightful.

Thank you, sis.
Listen, I’m going to pray for you.
You are so calm and level headed.
The Bible says “you will know them by their fruits”
Your good fruit shows, Cheryl.
Bless you.

oops, in the above post, this part is a quote from Don Johnson (the rest is me):

Don said:
“On the exegesis and application paradigm, Gordon Fee says most of what I wrote. I try to learn from everyone I can.”

On the exegesis and application paradigm, Gordon Fee says most of what I wrote. I try to learn from everyone I can.

That is really hard for me at this point.
I’m not dumb. I have a bachelor’s and a masters and I attended some seminary, but I was easily led, gullible, compliant, and trusted the translators, preachers, books, teachings, etc…
and I feel intensely betrayed by them at this point, so its hard for me to trust anyone’s teaching.
I trust God and I trust the Bible.
I don’t trust what men do with the Bible 🙁

I don’t find very many who dig very deep, and I am enjoying y’all on here who have actually thought about this stuff!!!

Hi Don,
Thanks. 🙂
I’m too young to recall 1950’s english.
However, I took french and spanish in HS and I lived in Italy for a year while my husband did his post-doc so I am quite familiar with how the Romance languages use gender and I assume the greek use of gender is similar. (ie plurals where males and females are included take a masculine plural, hence “brethren” is not just the male Christians, but the female and male Christians)

I use a rather old version of the “Online Bible” (which is installed on my computer from a CD ( http://www.onlinebible.net/)
It has the Strong’s and it has a “Young’s Literal Translation” (which used “men”) but no “Literal Version”. Do you know of a website where it is available? While we are at it, do you know of a website with an interlinear (greek/english)? I can read greek letters, I don’t know the conjugations, tenses, and grammar.

Thanks bro!

(Please forgive me in advance, Cheryl, this is off topic…)

Don Johnson,
Can you please help me with a greek question?
I was reading through Matt 23 today (multitasking as I watched my children’s Bible Quiz tournament for a few hours). Actually, my reading that passage was related to this thread because I was thinking about that idea I mentioned in an earlier post of dual intent in Bible passages: it applied to the hearers then and it also applies to us now. IOW, Jesus said Matt 23 back then to Pharisees, but aren’t there still “Pharisees” today to whom it would speak? Anyway, my strong’s is on my laptop which I did not have with me, so I made myself a note to look up this verse- which I just did now- but the strong’s isn’t helping me with the gender here (I bolded the word in question):

Matt 23:34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Thank you in advance.

The fact is that he does not have answers to what I say so the only way to save face is to attack the person. The attack comes by saying that I am long-winded. I am not clear. I am attacking him. I have a condescending attitude. This is all a smoke screen

Dear Cheryl
🙁
Are you quite certain the Lord has called you to engage this man in dialogue?
You’ve probably heard of Beth Moore.
In Believing God she says “Never argue with a Pharisee”
You know what is in a man’s heart comes out of his mouth (or off of his keyboard as the case may be)?

And, I have another bit from my own personal experience (after all the Bible says in Rev 12 that one will overcome the accuser of the brethren “by the blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony” 8) ) At about the third session of marriage counseling (three years ago) the Christian counselor pointed out a phenomenon which he referred to as “deflection”. My present mentor refers to it as “projection”. It is when my husband takes his own sins and accuses me of them. Keep that in mind when Matt (or anyone else) is hurling darts at you. It really helps me immensely to feel sorry for my husband instead of being hurt by his remarks!

Thank you Don, that helps 🙂
So the “teaching unit” in this case would be the entire letter of 1Tim, and “deversify” = take out the chapters and verses beause they weren’t in the original.

Don said:
Note that one may be a great exegete and a terrible applier or vice versa; this idea is to be both. And of course, use all the help you can get.

The above quote is reminiscent of Jesus when He said:

MT 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [2] “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [3] So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach…

Don said:
The point is that Paul is talking about people in a congregation setting. If you reverse engineer the phrases, it means some men were getting angry and some women were wearing ostentatious rich clothes.

All those other things are true, but not the point of this passage.

What is troubling me is that is appears that you are making these scriptures only relevant to the contemporaries to whom it was written?

Was it written to them, and for the reasons Cheryl has concluded? I think it is completely plausible!

Did Paul know how his words would be twisted and misused as a straitjacket on women? I’m quite sure Paul did not know that!

Did God know? I’m quite sure God knew! (and works it together for the good for those who love HIM and are called according to HIS purpose in order that they may be conformed to the image of CHRIST 🙂 )

The prophets of the OT had contemporary fulfillment and future fulfillment. I think God’s Word in the NT can be multidimensional like that:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

this weekend is Thanksgiving here in Canada

Happy Thanksgiving!
I’ll pray right now for you and yours!
Bless you!

oops, here’s that link:
http://www.cbeinternational.org/new/free_articles/male_headship.shtml

Charis, I am convinced that a misunderstanding of REAL Biblical authority is a root problem in many areas of Christendom.

This of this: Can a false teacher have ‘authority’?
How can we know if one is a false teacher? (Be a Berean)
Are all believers now “Priests”? A part of the Holy Priesthood? (Hebrews and 1 Peter for starters)
What is an elder? Someone mature in the faith.

What is true Biblical authority? One who rightly interprets and teaches the Word has Biblical authority and once we hear/know the truth we are personally responsible for it.

very insightful, Lin!
I’ve mentioned earlier here that I read that divorce is statistically higher in patriarchal churches. I understand why! I understand because we could so easily have been one of those statistics!
I cannot tell you what an IMMENSE relief it is to me to realize my husband is NOT my authority nor my leader 🙂

The scripture says, For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Eph 5:23)
“head” NOT “authority”
“authority” is NOWHERE delegated to HUSBAND by GOD
I feel ever so much safer in the hands of the LORD (who IS my AUTHORITY) than I do in those of my husband!!! It is indescribable how freeing it is. 🙂

Here is a link to an article which was an eye opener for me: I Believe in Male Headship

The “every where” in 1 Tim 2:8 is a translation interepretation. This is one of those times when it translates away from an idiom and so it is easy to miss. It would be better if they had translated it as it is in the Greek “in every place”. Then at least people would be able to perhaps figure out that “place” is an idiom for “holy place” as in church. This was a common Jewish way of wording things.

Paul is not giving general instructions to Timothy about what men should do. He wrote a letter to a church with a problem, teaching of false doctrine, and everthing in that letter is directed to that problem.

I so appreciate the insight that you Greek scholars have! 🙂

But are you thinking it is not for today? and it is only for “in church”? But I am the temple of the Holy Spirit (2Cor 6:16) and those who worship God will not do so in a certain “place” they will worship “in spirit and in truth” (John 4)

This is completely tangential, but when I was turning this passage over and over in my mind with respect to personal application to myself and my own life… I can see a connection between:
“men pray every where, lifting up holy hands ” (vs 8)
AND
“women adorn themselves in modest apparel” (vs 9)

How can men who are viewing pornography (which I have heard is a huge percentage of the “church”) lift up HOLY hands? And why would Paul only want them to dress modestly in church? Isn’t that for everywhere and all times? I don’t mean as a legalistic thing (like Amish or muslim “dress codes”), but to avoid causing others to stumble? It sure seems relevant for today!

Cheryl said:
She needs to learn the truth (verse 11). The stopping of teaching is connected to deception (verse 14) and it has something to do with being second (verse 13). The big question is why was Adam not deceived? What happened after he was created and before Eve was created that immunized him to the deception of the serpent? That is the key not rulership or authority or the garden.

I looked over on the CARM bulletin board a little, and I see for them and for me that the whole “authority” thing muddies the waters.
Wish I could help out but I can’t stomach joining that discussion, sorry 🙁

I have one point which I learned recently. I’ll put it here:

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Adam was not just a gardener!

08104 shamar {shaw-mar’}
AV – keep 283, observe 46, heed 35, keeper 28, preserve 21, beware 9,
mark 8, watchman 8, wait 7, watch 7, regard 5, save 2, misc 9; 468
1) to keep, guard, observe, give heed

“keep”/shamar means to guard!
Does that not imply that there was an enemy?
Adam was the watchman.

Clarifying my understanding:

Cheryl said:
nor is the Christ mentioned as being formed in her or that forming in her saves her. Salvation is an event not a birthing process.

I am interpreting “the childbirthing” as Christ being formed in her- not salvation, but sanctification. Again, I draw on personal experience for that. I have been “saved” for 28 years, but underwent an intense labor (more painful than chilbirth!) of sanctification (which I also referred to as circumcision of my heart) for the past 3 years which has brought me to a new level in my faith. I am able to “walk in the Spirit” with power and consistency which was not there before.

Cheryl said:
The basic meaning of the verb sozo is to rescue from peril, to protect, keep alive. Sozo involves the preservation of life, either physical or spiritual. There are two clues that Paul meant spiritual salvation. The first clue is that he does not use this word in any other way in his epistles. The second clue is that he ties it in with “the childbearing”. It is a definite noun. What one child is tied in with salvation?

Is it possible that he used it to mean “rescue, protect. restore” here?
I found this verse (not in an epistle):
Ac 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved .

I know what you mean. I was there too. My husband received freedom too when he finally realized that he wasn’t responsible to make me into somebody I wasn’t. And he wasn’t responsible for me spiritually before God. That was a big one that helped him to stop being so hard on me.

They want all the power and authority
but imagine the crushing responsibility!
Must be hard to “play god”. 🙁

I don’t think my husband has arrived at freedom yet,
but I have
and my children have.

I hope that this is starting to click a little. Take your mind off of having babies (I can’t believe you lived through having eight!) and the garden and sanctification. Think on “deception”. Now read through this passage thinking how the passage all relates to deception. Keep reading it until it starts making sense. If you leave out deception, the passage cannot make sense as it was inspired to do.

You are right that deception is key.
I’ll meditate upon this some more with that focus.
Your posts are very helpful to me in sorting it out! 🙂
Thanks.

To this point, he has been silent and she has been the teacher teaching false doctrine. He needs to quit being silent and speak up for the truth and if he leads, Paul is sure she will follow. Thus “she” will be saved if “they” (the husband leading the way for his wife) continue in the truth, etc. Does that make a little bit of sense?

Yes, it does. Thank you.
It reminds me of 1Cor 7:14 where a believing spouse staying leads to sanctification of the unbelieving spouse and the children.

In the past few days, I looked at a few more verses of the context (context is King 🙂 ).

” Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” 1Tim 2:6

The root of the Greek word for ransom carries the meaning “to liberate from misery and the penalty of their sins”

I wish you would look at the greek for “in due time”, Cheryl.
Because I think you are one of those bringing the testimony of which the verse speaks.

There was a time when I read this part and felt slapped in the face 🙁

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth ” 1Tim2:3-4 (NIV)

How come God only wants MEN to be saved? What about WOMEN?
Its a bad translation. God wants all anthropos/people to be saved.

Matt, do you read here?
I just wanted to point something out:

Women are NOT more easily deceived than men!
Men are just as subject to deception.
Paul speaking to the church at Corinth, likening the church at Corinth to Eve:

2Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I wonder if this is some parallel preaching by Paul?

Gal 4: 19 ¶ My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

I can honestly say that going through “circumcision of the heart” is far more painful than any physical childbirth (and I think I qualify as an authoritative on that issue- having born 8 full term). So, perhaps, the curse on Eve of “pain in conception” applies to ALL women- single, married, childless- clarified by 1Tim 2:14-15. “Pain in conception” can be the emotional pain of undergoing heart circumcision, mind/nature renewal, having the image of God restored, having Christ formed in me.

Col 3:10 and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator .

But that was just 1Tim 11-12. I still wondered about “she will be saved in childbearing if they continue”.
It seems to me that it cannot be Christian salvation because HER salvation is dependant upon something THEY do???
How can an individual’s Christian salvation be dependant upon “they”?
Who is “THEY”?
If “THEY” is the husband and wife, then I reasoned that their relationship could be restored to a more “garden-like” state where he is not “RULING OVER HER”; the curse upon Eve is undone, when Christ is formed in her, IF THEY continue in faith, holiness, etc… IOW, if she gives up on the marriage and goes for divorce, the marriage will not not be “saved/rescued/restored” to that garden state…

Now, as I mentioned, I project my own Christian experience into it… And my own marriage to a very traditional, patriarchal man who has used scriptures like this and other ones in a rather oppressive way 🙁 … but I persevered and the Lord has used the furnace which is my marriage to remove dross from me and to bring about a renewal of my mind, Christ formed in ME! And my marriage is not back at the garden state of intimacy with one another and Christ, but it is improving and I have hope.

God does not contradict itself and if I am seeing a contradiction in Scripture then the problem is with MY interpretation, NOT with God’s Word!!! I could see QUITE CLEARLY other examples of women exercising authority in delivering the Gospel (even unto men!) and serving the Lord ( Luke 2:36-38 ; John 4:28-29,39 ; Matt 28:5-7 ; Php 4:3 ; 1Cor 11:5 ; Ac 18:26 ) And, I know for a fact that nothing in scripture is intended to put down, disrespect, demean, or enslave women and if I am hearing or reading it that way, the problem is with MY hearing not with GOD’s intention! I believe that- WHATEVER the intentions of the passage- they reflect God’s loving and protective heart for HIS daughters (and sons).

So, I began to look at the greek words (to the best of my limited ability) and other scriptures which could be parallel passages. Wives are told to submit/be in subjection to husbands in several other places (some of them in Paul’s writing). In greek there is only one word gune which translates wife/woman and one word aner which translates husband/man. What if the greek word “aner” in the passage in question should be translated “husband” and the greek word “gune” should be translated “wife”.??? The word for “usurp authority” is unique and implies very forceful behavior carrying the meaning: absolute master; murderous; autocratic.

Reading the passage in question with wife and husband seemed quite consistent with other scripture and also reflects my personal experience of Christian marriage.

A wife should not be finger wagging didactic nor forcefully wresting authority from her husband .

WHY?
Because she is a horrible rotten sinner if she does so? NO.
Because it DOESN’T WORK! It is ineffective!

What if the reason God says it is not because a woman/wife is inferior, deceived, can’t teach, or doesn’t see something in her husband’s character that needs fixing? Perhaps it is for her own protection. Because a husband will simply not listen nor hear a wife who is finger wagging didactic nor attempting to forcefully exercise authority over him. It is counterproductive for a wife to deal with a husband in a manner which comes across as “parental”. It won’t “fix him”. To the contrary; he will- at least- dig in his heels if he doesn’t get downright abusive. God knows that!