Cheryl Schatz

Greg & Don,

Your comments about the ducks (Daffy) made me laugh out loud.  I have a really wacky sense of humor and I do sneak it into the posts once in a while.

Thanks Paula and Don for your prayer support.

Lin,

Thank you for your prayers.  We do not want to lose Keith and are trusting that he is in good hands with the doctors.

Mike you said:

I would like to offer (IMHO) that when Adam was first made, he was a complete representative of God – after the separation of the aspects of God’s person into two distinct beings, a situation was created where the two needed each other in order to fully represent the totality of God on all levels… Thoughts..?

I am not exactly sure what you are saying here.  Are you saying that Adam was created as two persons and then one person was taken out of the first person?

You said:

“however neither one has a full representation of God within them in the natural”

I don’t think that anyone or even a group of people have the “full” representation of God.  Jesus was the only one who had the fullness of God.

I will answer more later as I have to go now.

Hi All,

I will be on and off the bog sporadically but will try to get to all the thoughts and questions as I can.  Our ministry partner Keith MacGregor has had a heart attack and this had caused some upset in our lives right now.  We just got back from the hospital and he is resting comfortably and is still waiting for his appointment for the test that assesses heart damage.

Paula #38,

Tanx! And I whole-heartedly agree: there should be male cheerleaders at female sporting events! (I’d better get some sleep before posting any more!)

Ha, ha, snorkle…very funny!

Paula,

On comment #34 you said:

The idea that without hierarchy there can be no distinction is one used by those who insist that the Persons of the Trinity must have hierarchy. They say that if there is no hierarchy, then we are teaching Modalism!

This idea pushed by those who believe there must be hierarchy in every relationship is malarky.  They have set up their own definition that is without foundation in the bible and then used it against us to say that we are denying the Persons of the Trinity.  This reasoning is not logical and it does not hold water.

Lin said,

Cheryl, this is a great topic! I am so glad you posted this. WE are spending so much time and money in Christendom on gender differences that are leading us away from Christ and focused on the wrong things. You have brought it back to the main thing which is salvation and abiding in Christ.

I think there are helpful things to learn in a marriage from gender differences, but personally I don’t see any value from learning about gender differences in the church.  In every personality test that I have taken in a church setting, there has been a mixture of males and females in each characteristic type no matter how they name the type.  If it was gender based one would think that only women would be a “blue” (or whatever the name is given for a personality type) and only men a “green”.  The fact is that each personality type has both male and female subjects.

Paula,

You brought out an excellent point when you said:

Many like yourself define equality between the sexes as androgyny, but I strongly disagree with that idea. Equality does not mean two people are identical. Are two twin boys or girls indistinguishable unless one bosses the other?

I think that hierarchists are afraid that equality will bring androgyny but it doesn’t mean this at all.  True complementarity means allowing the complement to operate in their gift in a way that is different than yours so it enhances and adds to the full picture.  It doesn’t mean that only one can teach.  It means that both can teach in their individual ways so that the church is built up.  Complementarity is not one gender teaching (men) while the women are sitting on the bleachers going “rah, rah, go get ’em”.  Complementarity is all of us working together with our gifts and providing a full balance.

Don,

On your comment #26 you said:

The starkly different advice is mostly mythical teaching by non-egals.  We are to agape-love our enemies, so spouses are to agape-love each other.  And a husband is to honor his wife, which is very similar to respect.

This is a very valid point.  It isn’t just men who need respect.  When my husband honors me, especially in public, his respect gives me a real boost that encourages me to give him extra love in private.  Also my husband needs a lot of touching, (hand holding, love pats, hugs, etc) even more than I do and I respect his need.  He doesn’t come asking me for respect but for love.  These are basic human needs that we all have whether we are male or female.

gengwall #25 said,

I beg to differ Paula. Brain scan studies are showing more and more convincingly that men and women do in fact think differently precisely because of our physiology – if “thinking” means how we gather, process, and react to information and stimuli. There is one simple fact you do not acknowledge – male and Female brains are constructed quite differently and it significantly impacts how we relate to other human beings. And, although alternate patterns of behavior, communication, and even data gathering can be learned, that does not negate the differences in our design, which is what the conversation is all about.

The main difference that I can see is in the area of multi-tasking.  It isn’t necessarily totally different thoughts but how we can connect things together so that women can talk from one subject to another to another and then back again while men typically stay on one subject at a time.  When I try to get my husband onto another subject too fast he tells me that he has to put the box away that has our last topic in it and open up another box.  He thinks in segments or in compartments and I, like many other women, am able to keep more than one subject open in my brain so that I can connect things together without getting confused.  I don’t have to shut down one thought before I start up another.

Make sense?

tiro #20,

You said:

I don’t know about how others think, but I view those as part of physical differences.  And while it is true that our physiology may tend to influence us to pursue spirituality differently, that is not the same thing as saying men and women are spiritually different.  To my knowledge nothing in Scripture infers that men are spiritually different than women.  We are human first and foremost.  As humans we share the same type of spirit – that of humans created in the image of God.

This is well said, and I can give my hearty amen to your comments.

gengwall,

You said:

Cheryl – I agree with Paula, the answer to all of your inquiries which, if true, would yield inequality, is quite obviously “no”. I do have one possible quibble. You acknowledge the physical differences in gender (who could miss them), but those physical differences go further than our outside shell and reproductive anatomy. There are certainly hormonal and other bio-chemical differences between men and women, as well as significant brain structure and operation differences. So, although I agree that we are equal spiritually, I suggest that we may pursue spirituality quite differently.

Good!  Glad to have agreed here.  Are there differences between men and women that cause us to pursue spirituality differently?  I think biblically the answer is yes and no.  Yes there is a difference because God himself said that he would initiate an enmity between the serpent and the woman (Genesis 3:15).  We know that the enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent has the seed of the woman (Jesus) doing spiritual warfare and winning the battle for us.  Is it reasonable to assume that if God is also initiating the conflict between the woman and the serpent then he is providing the woman with the means to do battle in some way with the serpent?

It should not be a surprise that there are more women in church, more women tend to be prayer warriors and typically there are more women who are involved in bible studies then there are men.  Some think this is the “feminizing” of the church, but I think that God has enabled women to join the battle against satan that is still being fought and their involvement is in increased numbers and increased intensity.  Women seem to come across as more interested in spiritual matters while many men are more interested in the daily things of life.

While there are some characteristics that appear to be more predominant in the general population of women than men, this doesn’t mean that these are characteristics belonging to women alone.  For example men are said to be more rational and women are said to be more emotional.  In our home, my husband is the soft heart and his tears flow easily when he is sharing a meaningful experience in public.  I am the one who operates in the logical realm.  This doesn’t mean that my husband is not logical, but I am the one who consistently deals with issues through a logical method and a logical mind.  In fact if someone presents “facts” to me that are illogical, my mind tends to shut down.  I am not able to continue to listen to the person because I am like a computer saying “this does  not compute…this does not compute”.  If something is illogical I tend to get stuck at that point and until I can unravel the illogical words, I miss everything else the person are saying.  Just the other day, this was brought out once again when my husband said that I appeared not to be listening to him.  I was stuck back at the beginning at the point where what he said didn’t make sense to me and I had shut down and couldn’t hear a thing after that.

I also believe that women as a whole have  things to say and teach that men may miss getting from male teachers and so having women teachers is very advantageous because it keeps a person well-rounded getting the facts from different angles.  This is the complementary part that is missing in so many churches.  Women on the other hand are privileged receiving teaching by both men and women teachers.  Many men do not have the privilege of learning from a woman and so many are stuck in traditions that may not be healthy because they have not been allowed to expand their learning base.

Even with my admission that men and women can teach differently, inside we are all basically human and so bottom line we are on the same level.  We are all individuals of the same species.  We all have emotions and we all have a will.  Each person takes what he/she has and uses their gifts individually.  I do agree with Paula that if one removes the ability to know whether one is communicating with a man or a woman, it is not readily apparent by our communication.  I have no doubt that I could be taken as a man since I teach with the level of authority given in 1 Peter 4:10, 11 that is available to all but which is culturally seen more in men.

I am going to see about catching up on more of the comments.  You folks have produced much to think about.  Thanks!

tiro comment #11,

If a married woman uncovered her head her dowry could be taken away from her and her husband would divorce her as it was considered a sign of unfaithfulness because the married woman’s hair was seen as a sexual enticement that no man was to see except her husband.  If a dowry can be taken away from a woman in this way then her inheritance is not secure.  It is only the son’s inheritance that is secure, hence we are all son’s of God and heirs with Jesus showing a secure inheritance.

These are excellent comments and questions!!

I will participate later today.  I am heading off for an extended time in the dentist’s chair.  I’ll pop in later once my brain is unfrazzled.

The husband got paid the dowry as it was brought to him.  If his wife didn’t make him happy, such as if she burnt his meal, or went in public without her headcovering, he could divorce her without any support.

However in the Father’s inheritance, in the spiritual sense, I don’t think there is any sense of a dowry.  That is because just as all the church is the “bride” and also the entire church are  “sons”.  Equal equal.

Don,

Good question.  I use “sonship” because Galatians chapter 4 calls us “sons” as heirs.

Gal 4:6  Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Gal 4:7  Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

I find that very significant since in that culture only sons could be heirs.  This means that legally we are all heirs – all legal sons without distinction.  If scripture said that there are sons and daughters of God then there would be a distinction.  But we are all legal heirs.  But I am going onto point number two with my next post.  More later in a format where all will read.

It certainly is a faulty view that sees God as male.  The question that many have is whether God gave an innate ability for males to be spiritual in a way that reflects God and women to not have the same spiritual ability to reflect God.  More to come in the next post.

Just a reminder that I am not doing heavy moderation here so that unless there is direct name calling of a person, I let people speak for themselves and they are responsible for their own opinions.

Thanks to all for allowing me to get a good level of respect on this forum.

The interesting thing is that the New Testament has no example of a woman teaching women the bible.  Hierarchists readily admit that women are to teach women the bible, but where do they get that from?  It is from our understanding that we are spiritually equal and when we are told to teach the scriptures this means it is applicable for everyone regardless of race, gender or social standing.

RMacD,

Good thoughts!  It is always good to have a man’s perspective brought forth too.  We do indeed need all of us for discipleship.  This makes me think that women have it better then men.  They are allowed to have both male and female teachers.  In many places men are only allowed to have men teachers and so they miss out on seeing the full 3D view.  Keep the good thoughts coming!

Satan deceived only the woman so we could not blame his deception on Adam’s sin.

With the Jews being of their father the devil, they are steeped in sin as he was, and follow his path.  They are of their father the devil because even though they knew the truth of scripture they didn’t stay in that truth and they practice deception by teaching as doctrine the traditions of men thus invalidating the word of God.  Yes, I do believe that the Jews knew better since Jesus said that they didn’t stay in the truth.  That means that they had to have known the truth to begin with.

Make sense?

I do not know where Diane’s heart is.  I can’t even say for certainty that she has a good heart because only God really sees her heart.  We are left judging by the actions that we do see.  Certainly a person’s bad actions does not tell us everything about that person either.  I think the only real hope of change is for someone who they respect to speak into their lives and give them godly counsel.

I have been the brunt of her hatred so obviously I am not in a position to be treated with respect as someone who can speak into her life.  Yet I do not wish her harm.  I also wish for others to be warned.

Dane,

I appreciate your willingness to admit the things that you did wrong as well as your willingness to share your personal pain that caused your anger.  I believe this was a brave thing to do.

I wish that the same kind of humility would also be shown by Diane Sellner to admit where she has been wrong.   Somehow I doubt that anything that is done either inside or outside the organization will help her or her forum.  Humility must come from within and cannot be forced.

I see your goal as a worthy one to warn people about the abusive forums and leaders.

While I do not know what Dane’s views are in other areas and whether he would agree or not with Sellner’s views on those other areas, I do know that he has been badly hurt by a forum that claims to follow the Christian way of using “authority over” others.  I think that in this instance that we can focus on our areas of agreement.

My heart goes out to those who have been hurt especially since I ran a support group for 16 years for former Jehovah’s Witnesses who were also very badly hurt by an organization that they thought was the one true faith.  I did not agree with many of their viewpoints as they worked their way through to healing nor did I agree with some of their lifestyles but I was able to show love to them while I gave them the truth from scripture.  It is the attitude of love that I want to exemplify here.

Is there an opportunity to do something about a very unhealthy attitude that pervades a Christian organization?  Perhaps.  I myself cannot get involved because speaking out would of necessity involve taking a public stand against the founder and president of that particular organization. I have given my word that I would not publicly criticize this person in a mutual agreement that the president of that organization made with me, and even though he has not kept his word to me, I am compelled to see that keeping my word is not dependent on his faithfulness but mine.

I have also been wrestling with how best to pass on the message to those who think that there is a way to call a Christian organization to account along with calling to account the perpetrators of abuse who refuse to be accountable for their actions.

For those who feel that they would like to share their story of how they have been mistreated, Dane’s email address is available on his web site and his web site is available by clicking on his name.  Dane would be interested in hearing from you.  If you can set aside other areas of differences perhaps there is a way to work together.  I don’t know.  I am not privy to other disagreements nor do I want to be involved with other issues.  I already have too much on my plate.

So if any of you reading this blog want to be heard by someone who desires to warn the public about what he/she feels are clear examples of abuse, then it will be up to you to contact Dane.

Mike,

You said:

Then why would they be leaders, if they have no real purpose or no authority?

First of all there is authority in the church and that authority over us is the Lord Jesus and his Word.

Leaders on the other hand are called to serve and to lordship.  What Paula has written is right in that the view we wish to express is that the authority is in the word and leadership is advocated but not with a view to take authority over other members of the body of Christ.

I understand that this may be a brand new concept for you.  I can understand that.  This is the reason why I do not advocate for women taking authority over the church.  It is because no one should be doing this since Jesus said that the greatest leaders should be the greatest servants.  The servants should be sacrificing of themselves to lift us up so that we are empowered to serve.  There has been way too much of superstar leaders who believe that the church is there to serve them.  Their way leads to abuse.  The way of the Master does not lead to abuse.  It is the servanthood model and since Jesus is the one who created this model and showed us how it can be accomplished by his serving the church while he was here on the earth and then taking his servanthood to the ultimate place of sacrifice by dying for us, we should fear God and not even consider lording it over others.

I do appreciate your thoughts!  Your questions and your concerns are accepted and they keep us on our toes!

There is much on this blog that can be of service to you.  There is a whole lot of teaching on the hard passages of scripture as well as other articles that deconstruct faulty thinking.

Go ahead and keep pushing for understanding and your comments are welcome even if you don’t agree.  My purpose here is to serve in anyway that I can so that the body of Christ is built up in love.

Much blessing,
Cheryl

Mike,

I want to give you a hearty welcome!  You are welcome here no matter whether you agree with us or not.  There is a special community here of both men and women who care about others and I hope that we can help you in some way.

I am sorry that you have so many struggles right now and that other Christians have made your suffering even worse instead of holding you up in prayer and other support.   the fact that you say you love your wife and she loves you and you are still together even through all that you have been through is a very strong point showing that others may be judging unjustly from outside the marriage looking in.

You said:

We don’t always get it right, and we fight from time to time – we wrestle with what is the right answer, who should make this decision, and how does authority, order, etc., play into all of this.

In most marriages we are in a “dance” together where we need to continue to work together giving of ourselves so that we have a one-flesh union.  It isn’t always easy.  As far as who has the authority, that is a little like asking which part of the body should go through the door first.  If you lean forward so that your head goes through the door first, you may fall on your face.  If you lean back so that both of your feet go through the door first, you may fall backwards.  Marriage shouldn’t be an issue of authority or who is first, but working hard to be a united force.  It this unity it only seems logical that the one who is gifted in an area should make the decisions in that area.  Yet opposition from one spouse is a perfect opportunity to bow the knees in prayer and ask the Lord to intervene and give unity.  There should be many opportunities to serve the other spouse with cheerful submission or cheerful sacrifice.

You said:

I can tell you; when you’re in the soup, its nice to know that your brothers and sisters (even if they’re your wife or husband) don’t make these the primary issues, but rather love you for who and where you are, and genuinely support you – teach you, give you resources, pitch in a helping hand, pray for you, forgive you, etc…

This in realty is all about grace which we as a church should have more of for one another.

You said:

If a man or a woman has something to share, from their unique, god-given perspective, I say share it to whomever is available – we all need what you got – male or female – we are different, we think different, we experience life differently, but lets try and find a way to allow expression for all of that – I say, stop worrying about who is in charge, or who’s who in the zoo – let people be who they are, we need every gift, every anointing, every call, every talent, etc. – all hands on deck right now –

Amen!

So, I’m not sure where I fall within your structures – but I hope you find a way to liberate folks from them – both men and women – freedom is an awesome responsibility – respect it, love it, perpetuate it – that is my humble opinion…  MM

I am not so big myself on unbendable “structures”.  A foot works best for walking and jumping and kicking but if a hand is missing, the toes can pick up the slack and they can be used to feed the body.  Where I used to work there was a lady who did not have any arms.  She did all of her work – typing, filing, etc with her feet.  No one told her that she wasn’t allowed to do that because her feet were not hands.  The job got done and she was an encouragement to us.

Mike, freedom indeed is an awesome responsibility.  We should not flaunt our freedom, but we should thank God for it and use our freedom to help others be free as well.

RMacD,

You said:  “A man cannot – for a number of reasons – fully disciple a woman.”

I am not 100% sure I know what you mean by this.  A man may have difficulties helping a woman with emotional issues, but in spiritual issues, I do not think there is a spiritual barrier.  If we look at Titus 2 we will see the elder women told to help out with home issues, but no mention is directly made to disciple them spiritually or to teach them the bible.  Does this mean that women should never teach the bible to anyone including women?  This question should only come up if one is already prejudiced to women.  Otherwise why should we think that the handling of God’s words belong to the hands of men alone?

I have had men tell me that they learned more from me than any pastor they had.  No one yet has told me that I failed in some way to mentor them because of my exterior physical parts.  Yet we are told that we cannot say that we do not need others in the body of Christ.  So I should never say that a male is not needed by women disciples or that a woman teacher is not needed by men.  We all need each other and each one has a gift or treasure that we can share with each other.

If I missed your point, I am sorry.  It has been an extremely busy day for me and I am to lead a bible study tomorrow with some unsaved seniors as Canada celebrates Remembrance Day so there is preparation needed.

I have some Kenneth Bailey DVDs someplace.  He has a good handle on the cultural aspect of the hard passages of scripture.  I will have to dig out his material again and rewatch when I have time.

Don,

Thanks for the link.  I will read it through.

In on-going emails with Dr. Wallace I find him one of the most gracious complementarians I have yet met.

Lin,

Amen!  I completely agree.