Lydia

“But rather, how much weight must they have when they do not directly affirm the non-negotiables of the faith? Or when they are at odds with the remaining witness of Scripture”

Such as women could prophesy at Pentecost but not for the rest of the church age. Of course, now we must listen to endless parsing of what prophesying means. And then we must point them to the Patriarchal Puritains who said it meant preaching. Of course the Puritans did not have to worry about women preachers since their women had no civil standing and were the property of their husbands.

If we take their interpretations on the subject of women there are tons of contradictions in the Word. And a new, more legalistic ‘law’ for women in the NC AFTER the Cross! After all, there was no prohibition to women leading or teaching men in the Old Covenant. But then they try to convince us that pastors today are really Levite Priests in the NC. And around we go.

Mark, Do you really think my Savior requires me to have children to be saved? A works salvation for women only?

“There is a massive theological problem with what you are proposing. If we take sozo to mean salvation in the normal Pauline sense we are dealing with eternal personal salvation. Salvation from sin and the consequence of punishment and eternal hell.”

This is the typical CBMW view that sozo in this passage does not mean salvation. And he ignores Childbearing as a noun.

But Mark is ignoring what Paul wrote in Chapter 1 which helps us understand what Timothy would clearly understand about those who are deceived vs those who willfully deceive others on purpose like Hy and Al.

It really helps to get rid of chapter breaks and verse numbers and read these as they were meant to be read: As letters.

“He is thinking of christians who have died. He is an evangelical, bible believing christian. He would argue that the bible uses the term salvation sometimes in an eschatalogical sense (I think that is the correct expression), looking toward the final judgement.”

Craig, I would be interested in hearing what you think happens to unbelievers when they die?

I doubt very seriously if Dr. White will agree this works in 1 Tim 2. He is very patriarchal.

gengwell, you are asking the questions I have asked for years.

Another thing that always just slays me about this book is that some comp women do a talk on Esther about “beauty treatments’ like Esther’s and preparing yourself for your husband.

Can you imagine promoting the requirements of a pagan king for his haram to Christian women as something godly? (shakes head)

Kristen, You make some good points I had not considered.

“I’d love to see the financials on an organization like CBMW and see if my theory that they’re making money like nobody’s business is right. If it is, then that has to change.”

It is the speakers who make all the money. As a matter of fact, I heard through the grapevine (I cannot substantiate this at all) that donations to CBMW were down last year.
Their mailing address is at SBTS which means the SBC is paying their rent. But I do know the big money is in speaking fees, books, seminars, etc. Just look at their website.

I came to believe a while back that CBMW was established more to market a doctrine and make money for a select few.

What if CBMW says they apologize and then keep on doing what they have always done?

“I have to admit I have no clue what approach would work. How do you approach those that stonewall? ”

You put out the truth. And you allow debate using scripture. CBMW does not allow serious debate. And they resort to ad hominem that if you question them you are a liberal feminist and rebellious. It is almost impossible to get past that with them. Their goal is to shut down debate on interpretations.

In effect, we should not even be trying to change their minds. They will need a road to Damascus experience for that because they are too entrenched and this is also part of how they make their living and it is their identity…and they would have to give up their standing and authority.

We should be engaging everyone else…encouraging them to study the scriptures on their own and to question everything they are taught. Jesus said He left us the Best Teacher. Let’s start reminding their followers of that fact.

Let us remind their followers not to leave their FIRST LOVE.

Demanding an apology is a waste of time. Rebuking them in love, is not.

“I remember that some don’t believe that parents have authority over children. My understanding at present is that they do. What do you think? A parent can exercise authority humbly, for the good of the child, and at great sacrificial cost to the parent.”

Just for the record, as an egal I most definitely believe a parent has authority over children. It is just that an adult woman is not a child and her husband is not her parent. That is the difference. If one thinks the husband has authority over the wife, that is making her a perpetual child and the husband her ‘daddy’. It can get quite sick. I saw the fruit of this thinking for years in comp circles.

” The way i see it, it doesn’t appear you are looking either for the truth…you seem very set in your position.”

This is strange to say since most of us are former comps who spent years studying this issue. As a woman I wanted to make sure I was following the Word. We have no authority to gain or lose by the egal position because it is mutual within the Body of Christ and marriage. We are to make others more important than ourselves. I think many comps miss that about egal. And we know the comp position makes the male more important by virtue of definining his position as authoritative.

“but I am still thinking through the “head” passages. I can see how Eph 4 and Eph 5 fit well with non-authoritative concepts, but I still have some questions on Eph 1 and the input from others has been helpful.”

I think we can get bogged down sometimes and miss the big picture. We have to get a overall view of the entire picture of scripture and ask hard questions. these are just a few:

1. Why is there nothing in the OT against women teaching men? But now, in the NT, there is? Why more legalism in the NT? Why would the OT allow women such as Huldah and Deborah? Was that sin? Why would someone like Abigail be considered wise for going against her husband?

2. Would God actually put a human authority layer between Jesus Christ and married women? What would be the function of the Holy Spirit in a married woman’s life, if that is the case?

3. If authority is meant in the ‘head’ passages then why didn’t the Holy Spirit inspire clear authority words to the author’s? There are several to choose from that would clearly communicate it is an authority, chain of command stance.

4. Why would a group of women be allowed to follow Jesus around (at least one was married) and support him financially if this was not their ‘role’.

5. Why would women be allowed to prophecy only on Pentecost and not for the church age? What would be the point of the Joel Prophecy?

6. Why can we not see that focusing on who is in charge, who is most important, etc, in Christian marriage or the Body of Christ is a very worldly and unChristian focus? So many try to turn “servant” into authority. The entire meaning is lost and it becomes a ‘religion’ of man and works. And it “usurps” the function of the Holy Spirit in believers lives.

“So why are we warned about not lording it over- this would seem irrelevant if authority was not an expectation for church leaders. We are warned because of the corrupting nature of authority, not to show it doesn’t exist.”

Mark, This is a good one. I have heard it before. and it still sounds quite silly coming from a Believers perspective whether in marriage or in the Body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the authority in both places.

But others here point out the obvious flaws in your view. Oh, authority exists alright and it is a huge sin problem for the person who wants it and thinks it is his divine right to stand in place of the Holy Spirit and the authority of Jesus Christ. Civil authority exists to deal with human evil. Some of those evil folks are married men, too. Some even claim to follow Christ :o)

Would you agree it would be wrong for a woman to submit to evil? If so, then tell us what human in her life gets to decide what is evil and she should not submit to it?

“Mark: “What i said was not an attack at you at all. My point is simple- to reject servant leadership is to reject the model of Jesus himself. Jesus was both leader and servant!”

Mark, it won’t map because you are not God in the flesh. You, too, are a sheep, a servant and lowly…like the rest of us if you are saved.

“So according to your train of thought, Christ did not ‘take’ authority. Does he therefore also NOT HAVE ANY AUTHORITY? “

His authority does not map to humans. That is one of the most frightful and insidious ideas that comps have. It scares me for them.

The reason: “Christ IN YOU” would bear the fruit of humility, love, patience, kindness, never lording it over, etc. Christ IN YOU would never bear fruit of “I am the authority” or “you are to submit to me”.

Do not confuse authority with boldness or courage which is manifest by the Holy Spirit and women can have, too. There are women in China right now who are in jail because of thier boldness and courage to share the Gospel.

While we sit here and talk of ridiculous roles and who has authority, the Holy Spirit is leading people (including many women) to proclaim (preach) the Gospel to any and all who will listen. They risk their lives for Christ. But many in the West want to tell them they are in sin for teaching men.

“IMO this human lust for seeing authority every where and being an authority is just trying vainly to provide a kind of selfish strength we can control rather than relying wholeheartedly upon God for everything we need to do the things of God and the works of God”

Personally, I would hope comps would use such verses below more than trying to find put authority in submission or head:

26For consider your calling, brothers:(A) not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[a] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But(B) God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise;(C) God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even(D) things that are not, to(E) bring to nothing things that are, 29so(F) that no human being[b] might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him[c] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us(G) wisdom from God,(H) righteousness and(I) sanctification and(J) redemption, 31so that, as it is written,(K) “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

“If I use the context to work out the meaning of the head/body metaphor the head loves, feeds, cares for the body and is united as one with the body. There is no mention of authority. But if I go back to Eph 1:20-23 the head/body metaphor seems to be associated with authority. Is Paul using the metaphor in different ways within the one letter? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?”

Craig, Another clue are the words the Holy Spirit Inspires. Why not inspire clear Greek words for authority when writing about the husband wife relationship in Eph and other places? The Holy Spirit did Inspire a clear authority word in Greek when describing the relationship of husband/wife in 1 Corin 7. And they BOTH have this authority over the other.

Alison,

There is another angle to this: Money. Comp movement, women’s ministries, marriage seminars, conferences, books, etc. It is a big money maker in Christian circles.

“Another side issue with this: I’ve encountered a number of young wives who get “into” CBMW/comp theology without/before their husbands are indoctrinated and then either manipulate their husbands into assuming aspects of “authority/headship” or lament the fact that their husband refuses to lead because the wives feel shamed for not being able to adhere to the “rolebook.”

This is pretty typical. For one reason, more women tend to be involved in church than men and they pick up on this and take it home. I know one woman who waited 20 years praying for her husband to be the spiritual leader before she realized how much time she had wasted and her kids went lacking from her spiritual guidance at a young age. Her husband simply was not going to step up to the plate.

So, not only did her kids get short changed from her spiritual guidance but they were indoctrinated that the man has to do it in the home.

It is all so silly and senseless. It gets people focused not only on themselves but on others and their roles. Instead of on Jesus Christ.

gengwell, I know quite a few comps who cannot stand Eldridge for the reasons you give: Fleshly/worldly. one comp I know and like a lot says it is fairy tale stuff. And he is right. What if that “beauty” has a masectomy or a horrible disfiguring accident. Then what?

pinklight: I have been involved with the comp movement since the mid 1980’s even before the Danvers statement was published. They have elevated this doctrine to a primaryteaching of salvation. So, if you are not submitting to your husband (they define as obedience) then you are rebelling against God and believers do not do that.

If you think about it, this controls every area of a woman’s life if she is married. Even her spiritual relationship with Christ and striving to be guided by the Holy Spirit instead of a human.

If you can get a copy of RK McGregor Wright’s 3 part response to the Danvers statment, do so. It was revised around 1990 but it was unpublished. However, I like Wright’s response because he is seriously into the Sovereignty of God and he shows how lame and lacking it is in scriptural basis and how badly the proof texts are interpreted. And the statement is the basis for the modern comp movement. it is the basis for the advent of CBMW.

“As i have said earlier, the Bible commands her and thus God, not me. If she chooses to reject God’s commandment, it is between her and God. Likewise if she chooses to obey God’s commandment, it is between her and God. I will never, and don’t ‘take’ or demand authority from my wife.”

Mark is making my points for me here. This is exactly what they believe. Note that it is a one way submission and if the wife does not submit, she is disobeying….NOT ONLY HER HUSBAND…BUT GOD!

(Never mind Eph 5:21. It simply does not apply to husbands or evidently, pastors or elders, either)

This is why all the focus must be on what the wife does or does not do in comp teaching. It is as if the husband represents God to the wife and by not obeying the husband she is a rebellious sinner.

But where does Eph 5 talk about authority and obediance?

Now, who does the husband obey in this scenerio? Of course, the civil authorities (like his wife must, too) and the church “authorities” (as they deem them that are just like the husband in this belief) but then they believe the husband has some direct link to God the wife does not have. How else could they believe he is her spiritual authority?

Question: Does the wife have to obey the church authorities? If so, do they have final say over the husband if it comes to that?

The more you get past the general comp teaching and delve into the specifics, the more bizarre and legalistic it gets in practice. What are the lines that seperate basic comp teaching from Patriarchal groups? The lines are the degree’s of legalism they teach.

“SM – the stock answer I have heard to your question is “God set it up that way and who are we to question why God did that”

But then much of the New Covenant teaching would not apply to adult believing women. The New Covenant does not tell women specifically to go and make disciples only of other women. It does not even say that women CAN only teach other women. So, if I follow their interpretation then it would seem that women teaching other women would be sin, too.

It would also mean that the temple veil being torn in two on the Cross does not apply to adult female believers who are married. their husband is to act as their Holy Spirit and is a layer between them and their Savior since he is to act as Christ for them in the Eph 5 metaphor.

And that cannot be right. So, their interpretation has to be wrong.

“And one question I have is, why? Why is the focus on the women or what the wife does?”

I have studied CBMW writings for some time now and have several answers:

1. Because men are the “authority” teachers and this is what they teach.  If the “authority’ says this interpretation is correct, then it must be.

When they teach on the male ‘role’ they are vague as gengwell mentioned above: spiritual leader, final authority, etc. These are vague roles that can really cover just about anything the individual husband wants it to cover. They see themselves as God ordained authorities as both teachers and husbands. (Except that they should see themselves as servants. But they have managed to redefine servant as authority)

2. Because they must have women obeying these man made interpretations or the whole comp structure fails.  So, they teach this in a way that makes it sinful for a women not to obey. They teach it to make women think  that, in effect, she is NOT obeying God if she does not follow her ‘role’. So, this makes  the focus on women. And it makes her the sinner.  Have you noticed how they deal with abuse of various kinds? Piper says she should endure abuse for a season. See, she is righteous if she endures abuse. I often wonder if Piper would go to work each day and endure abuse from someone who claims to be a Christian? He could escape it by gong home. The wife cannot.

3. Many comp teachers talk about the husbands ‘role’ in such as way that is really silly. He is to love her…ok, how is that taught? Date night, flowers, telling her you love her. Very shallow sort of things.

Her “role” is to support him in whatever he does…this comes down to whatever he thinks she should do. Even down to being careful how you give driving instructions so that it won’t look like you are ‘teaching’ him.

It is all about elevating men. Which goes back to the fact that they must be  insecure about who they are in the first place. Otherwise this would not be such a huge issue that has become a mass  movement within Christianity and has more folks thinking about thier roles than their relationship with Christ.

What concerns me most is that they humanize spiritual counsel in Eph 5. The husband is NOT Christ. He is a fallen sinner saved by the same grace as the wife. But these men map themselves to Christ. Are not women to be Christlike, too?

“This is radically different to our culture….”

Mark, this is an area that comps really beat on…the whole idea of authority. I understand it and agree with it to a point. I must also teach my children to think critically and spiritually and NOT follow evil authorities. This includes wolves in the church, despots, etc. I think we can learn from the Germans on this one. They used this position of respect for and obedience to authority and turned it into something evil and horrible for children.

There are some adults they should be civil to but I certainly hope they do not respect out of some misplaced duty.

” How we deal with our “household” is not addressed in the passage.”

I don’t know if Mark is coming back but what does he do with the verse in 1 Tim that describes the woman as the ‘despot’ of the home? (In the Greek, of course…not the translation)

“Let me encourage everyone here to perhaps devote more energy to giving a realist alternative to a comp interpretation”

Mark, Mark, Mark…Do you not realize that many of us lived as comps for many years? I could quote you all the talking points forwards and backwards. I have read their Talmuds. Sat in most of their seminars. Listened to thousands of comp sermons.

It was only by studying the Word indepth and begging the Holy Spirit to remove the filters did I see the contradictions of the comp proof texts. I can give you ONE: The Joel prophecy in Acts. Oh, I know all the comp arguments about this one but they are lies using a few other badly translated proof texts and very bad interpretations. (Ironically, the Puritans agree with me on one bad translation the comps use to negate the Joel Prophecy for women)

But I did the same thing that they are asking here. I started asking for practical examples of the husband authority on a day to day basis. I asked this of well known comp couples. Of seminar presenters and many pastors who focus on this stuff (to the neglect of the Gospel, I might add)

And guess what! The answers were ALWAYS what the wife should do. The point was that SHE had to make him feel like the big authority. It was all about what she does. This was no matter if the wife worked 50 hours a week or not. It was the same message. And it started sounding like a rule book or to do list or one of those 10 step how to books.

And your example was about what your WIFE does. It never ceases to amaze me how this is the same everywhere in the comp movement! The focus is on the women.

The bottomline is that if you both are believers, you seek the Kingdom first. The relationship with Christ is first and foremost. And that relationship with Christ is what will bring a great loving marriage. But you comps have women focused on their role. They are taught to focus on YOUinstead of Christ. It is a man centered religion of works. After all, none of us can serve two masters.

I suggest you think of ONE FLESH union as it is: ONE FLESH. There is no authority in one flesh.

“It is something God requires of her not me.”

Again, you assume Eph 5:21 does not apply to you as a believer with your wife who is a believer.

Concerning Authority in the Body…

Hebrews 13:17 is badly translated. Mostly by those labouring under the state church structure. If we are to obey leaders as our authorities then I assume, it would be a sin for me to question or dissent from my pastor or elders even if they turn out to be Ted Haggards, Jimmy Swaggerts, Spong or some other like types. Right? If not, why? After all, they would be the authority.

The authority in the Body is Jesus Christ. Elders are SERVANTS as overseers. Who wants to be the greatest in the Kingdom? Jesus answered that…be an authority? No. The first will be last, etc., etc. You guys spend a lot of time on authority when you should be thinking: Lowly Servant.

Authority-Servant. Snap, we tried that with the oxymoron, Servant Leader. A kinder gentler “authority”?

And with all this “authority” in the Body around us that we should obey, why the need for the Holy Spirit? The Counselor. Seems we would never need Him. Just the human authority.

And one question I have for the authority lovers is why aren’t all the letters to the churches written to the authorities in those churches to carry out? Why are they written to the whole church? Who was the “authority” in the church in Corinth? Philippi? Seems if the authority figure were so important, they would be mentioned in each letter.

Sorry TL, I did not mean to offend. It is just that repeated censoring of comments they think are mean but yet other comments saying egals are unbiblical or ‘have a low view of scripture’ are allowed to stay is hypocritical and gets old. This goes on all the time on comp blogs. Rarely do comps like Mark of NN go to egal blogs and really have a serious exchange. And I applaud them! Of course they come with preconceived notions such as we must all be pentecostals, or liberals or angry feminists. :o)

Most comps like to control the venue. Part of their authority bent thinking.

I tried commenting over there a few years back and had the same experience as Kay. After reading his stuff for a while, one sees how shallow the thinking is. The post you linked to is a prime example. I had to chuckle at his illustration since I know a couple where the husband is a serious chef and the wife a secret service agent. She would be checking out the strange sound while he fixed a pot of french plunge method gourmet coffee. :o)

TL, I went over there but the writer thinks there is such an animal as “head pastor” in the Bible. Why bother when someone believes such a ridiculous thing? He is also stuck on “human authority” in the Body. Two fallacies so far…. so why bother?