TL

” “X” leads to “Y”
X= operation of eros within the marital relationship between two “inequivalent” persons?Y=”an [sic] natural and god-made asymmetry of the relationship (hierarchy)”

NN, OK this is sounding more and more like a power paradigm. What is the inequivalence between husband and wife? The man is usually more powerful in body and the woman is the weaker vessel (body). What other inequivalence do you see. And how does one person being stronger than another create a natural hierarchy of authority?

I haven’t yet seen your blog NN. and please don’t ask me to read back and find the link. 🙂

This concept of marital hierarchy based on sexual and erotic love (eros) is beginning to sound like a power paradigm. Some of the early church fathers who said things like: “the man has broad shoulders so is created for leadership and the woman has wide hips so is created for bearing children” had a similar view in mind. This may be part of the ideas that women are irrational (more emotional) and men are logical and rational (not emotional) which carries hints of men claiming to be more powerful and superior. Also, the Buddistic views that because of the shape of sexual organs and man being the giver/initiator, thus man is the more powerful and fit for leadership while women are to be receptive to male leadership. All of these concepts whirl around excuses to claim power to males. None of them are Biblical. It is not the way God thinks about things.

Tiffany, apology accepted.

“The prevailing thought seems to be that the Lordship isn’t an authority but a oneness where authority isn’t necessary. Rather that Christ and the church are going to be one in a way where authority is not applicable. “

God has authority as our creator. The Messiah, the God-Man has that plus his authority as the Anointed One who by His sacrifice is able to not only forgive our sins, but heal them as well. I don’t think any human can relate to either of those relationships or claim their authority as his own.

However, the Messiah ALSO relates to us in ways outside of those powerful relationships where authority is not relevant. That is the miracle of Christ walking among us as one of us. His authority among us as friends and the recipients of His amazing gift, is sacrificial love, the same type of love He commands us all to participate in toward one another in every walk of life.

Perhaps, you simply haven’t had the time to really hear and think about what has been said, and in the manner of us all who are busy just gave knee jerk reactions to some words taking them out of the context of meaning by the authors.

“So I think the question that each wife but seek God on is, how is the Church to submit to Christ? And then do likewise.

I disagree Tiffany. IMO the question is not in what ways does the church submit to the Messiah, because Jesus is God in the flesh and we yield our lives to Him in many ways. The question IMO is in what MANNER do we arrange ourselves under. It is a question of attitude, not to make husbands little christs. We submit our lives to God in trust, honor, support and respect of who He is. We can as wives do the same for our husbands. We should be able to trust him unless he has proved otherwise. We should honor him, support him, and respect him for the person he is in Christ. It seems to me, that should be easy for you to agree with.

But then we have the problem that husbands should be having the same attitude toward their wives in the fear of the Lord according to vs. 21. It is likely that that is where the problem of our communication lies. However, why would such a basic Christian belief of honoring one another in Christ be deprived of wives by their husbands. Their are plenty of Scriptures that admonish it. Look at all the “one another” verses in the NT.

Tiffany, I’m sorry to hear that you sprained your ankle. Hopefully, your husband will help with the housework. I know how it piles up. 🙂

Tiffany,
”I think you and I have very different views about the lordship of Christ over the Church.”

Since you are now questioning my relationship with the Lord, I think it behooves you if you explain what you mean and quote what statements lead you to think such. Otherwise, it makes you come off as attempting to discredit someone just because they disagree with you.

”Just like the animal sacrifices are a model of the sacrifice that is to come (designed that way from the beginning by God, not referenced in retrospect) so marriage was designed from the beginning as a model of Christ and the Church.”

It’s pretty easy to recollect the many Scriptures that show us that Levitical Priests sacrifices before God for sin were a forerunner of the last and greatest sacrifice of God’s Son. But please show me a Scripture that says that marriage was designed as a model of the Messiah’s relationship with fallen humanity. And please further show where husbands represent The Messiah and wives represent fallen humanity.

Please NN,
desist from seeming attempts at taking charge of the conversation and answer the posts that are directed to you. This is the respectful thing to do. You can answer several people in one post.

NN,

The problem is what you infer from this. Your inference is wrong in that you assume by what is missing that therefore the husband is not to do what is not included in those few sentences even though Paul just got finished telling everyone to do them all. All are admonished to be of a submissive nature toward each other. All are told to love all sacrificially.. These are not gender specific admonitions. However, at the time certain aspects were lacking in marriage. Paul chooses to only address a few things, not everything. He did the same thing with slaves, masters and children, parents. This is not an all inclusive thesis. Paul is only pointing out certain issues.

Why Paul is only pointing out certain issues is important as well. You assume that the reason Paul is pointing out certain issues is because he is eliminating all the other elements of community Christian behavior when it comes to marriage and instead favors an entirely different paradigm. This is not true. It is not true in marriage, nor is it true between slaves and masters, or between children and parents.

NN,
you have made your inferences elsewhere. And now I would appreciate your responses to what I said.

“Eph 5, Col 3, 1 Pet 3, etc. – In each case the wife specifically is told that she is to be submitted (”hupatassoe”) to her husband; while in each case the husband is given a distinct and different instruction.”

Almost. First, the wife is told to submit herself. This is passive which gives the decision to the wife. And the husband is to to treat his wife as himself.

The problem is what you infer from this. Your inference is wrong in that you assume by what is missing that therefore the husband is not to do what is not included in those few sentences even though Paul just got finished telling everyone to do them all. All are admonished to be of a submissive nature toward each other. All are told to love all sacrificially.. These are not gender specific admonitions. However, at the time certain aspects were lacking in marriage. Paul chooses to only address a few things, not everything. He did the same thing with slaves, masters and children, parents. This is not an all inclusive thesis. Paul is only pointing out certain issues,

Mark, #205

”Just take a look at Susannah’s comment to see the authority= evil paradigm- in her own view, there was no need for authority in the sinless garden. However authority existed pre-fall and was declared as part of God’s creation as ‘very good’.”

It is better if we don’t make assumptions of what another means. Susannah did not by any means indicate that she thought ” authority= evil paradigm” . The authority in the garden was not toward each other but toward the earth and the creatures on the earth. Because of sin, now authority is needed to govern people who sin and protect people who don’t.

The problem with authority in this discussion, is the claim that God ordains males (because they are male) with authority toward women (because they are women), especially in marriage. There are no Scriptures to support such an idea.

” furthermore we note that the apostle gives distinct instructions to husbands and wives (whatever the reason he did this for – the instructions are consistently different: we can at least agree on this?)”

NN,
While it is true that husband and wife are being given different admonitions, this does not mean that they are the only admonitions that are relevant. We must remember that Paul is NOT writing an all inclusive thesis on the ins and outs of marriage. Rather, he is writing a letter to real people in real places with these problems. Paul is addressing the problems. So, when Paul reminds wives that they need to arrange themselves under their husbands in a similar way that we all arrange ourselves under the Lord (after telling us all to arrange ourselves under one another) Paul is NOT telling wives they don’t have to love their husbands, just because he omitted that area. Paul is addressing the problem areas. In the same way, when Paul tells husbands to love, nurture (provide for and protect) and honor their wives as they do their own bodies, Paul is NOT telling husbands they don’t have to arrange themselves under their wives just like they do the rest of the Body of Christ and in the same manner they do toward the Lord. Rather Paul is simply zooming in on an area that needs addressing because of the cultural attitudes of the times.

Tiffany,
Your personal preference to not give personal testimonies is fine. I personally accept that and don’t have a problem with that. However, please do not seek to make a new doctrine about personal testimonies. Observe that the entire Bible is replete with testimonies from people’s lives. While the NT may not have as many testimonies from real people’s lives, it does not negate the importance of hearing about how God works in real people’s lives. When we consider our analysis of things, it is important to see how our ideas work out in real life.

Does the concept that God can spiritually intervene in life and heal people, actually work? Yes, it does. We know that because of personal testimonies in real people’s lives. Does God always heal? We know He doesn’t (although we have to search Scripture for the answer) because in real people’s lives, we see that some are not healed even after asking.

Personal testimony is important. From personal testimony we hear that the majority of women who live within a male dominated marriage suffer from it . Why is that, do you suppose?

BTW Tiffany, are you actually reading the responses here. I have responded twice to the concept that the church is a ” model/shadow/representation of Christ and His church” and you have not responded. Perhaps, it would help if you provide a Scripture for this idea.

”The Bible says that the relationship is a type of Christ and the Church.”

Tiffany,
You mean the Bible says that the marriage relationship is a type of Christ and the church. But it doesn’t say that at all.

”For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

The two shall become one flesh is a reference to marriage — of which Christ emulates. IOW Christ’s relationship with the church is likened to the oneness of a marriage. It is not the marriage relationship that reflects the Lord and the church. It is the relationship of Christ sacrificing Himself for the benefit of the church that is likened to a marriage. You have it backwards.

“If this ministry is really about addressing a perceived wrong in a SECONDARY doctrinal issue (once again, no one in this discussion has claimed otherwise) then lets treat it like that. Let’s continue to discuss the applicable Bible passages with grace and truth and learn from each other.”

And that is what we have been doing albeit with some strong words. Please note that those strong words are concerning beliefs, not people. Please stop trying to make this personal. It is not.

Also, note that you are absolutely correct that this is a secondary non salvic issue. However, CBMW (the founders of complementarianism) do NOT view it as a secondary issue but have in several of their articles claimed it to be a salvation issue. Several of their primary teachers and followers have made the mistake to seek to disvalue the salvation of anyone who does not believe that women must obey their husbands in everything. However, I’m sure that you are aware that it is not our jobs to decide who is fully ‘saved’ and committed to God and who isn’t. Only God knows the hearts. This stance has brought in divisiveness to the Body of Christ and attacks other Christians. We DO NOT wish to be involved with this type of divisiveness.

“Likewise complementarianism does not equal the wife forsaking who she is, what she loves, her desires and hopes and calling from God to submit to someone who has decided he is God’s oracle for the family and that only he hears from God. I know comp. and patriarchy is sometimes (I suspect you all would claim often?) enacted this way but that does not mean that it is actually that way.”

The average concept by many comps is simply that man and woman live in complementarity. For those comps, it is not what you describe above. Such beliefs do not involve husbands having the right to act when their wives strongly disagree. Such beliefs do not involve the concepts that a husband has a right and duty to expect his demands to be obeyed. IMO those types of comps are really quite egalitarian in how they live.

Most Christians who believe in Biblical equality have lived and experienced the patriarchal, hierarchical, traditional and complementarian life styles. We have not come to our beliefs blind. It is not that we have seen these concepts lived out “incorrectly”. It is that we have thoroughly researched what Scripture truly says and what the CBMW model of complementarianism is (BTW they are the originators of the concept) is contrary to the fullness of life that Scripture and God desires for all of us.

“I am rather confused on one point- why is everyone assuming submission= complete dehumanizing/infantilizing/trivializing of the individual who is submitting? That isn’t what Christ does to us as we submit to Him, rather He grows us more fully into who we are (which is who He created us to be. I am rather uncomfortable with the idea that Christ didn’t make us who HE wanted us to be.”

Tiffany, I am EXCEEDINGLY uncomfortable that any human being can take the place of God in a woman’s life. No human should EVER think it is acceptable for a man to think he can mold his wife into the person that he wants her to be. God is perfect in all aspects, Holy and without blemish. God only is capable to determining what is best for every human being. Husbands do not share that ability with God. No one does.

Our submission to (arranging ourselves under, respect and honor, support, etc. ) God is always going to be different than our submission to one another. Our submission to one another (allelon) is not obedience to one another, but of considering otherS needs first, of supporting and provoking others toward good. It is not a class distinction of all blacks submitting to all whites, or all poor submitting to all the rich, or of all women submitting to all men. It is about an attitude of love, respect and humility to be shared amongst all believers.

While submission is freely spoken of, commanding is not spoken of. No one get’s the freedom to command others and expect obedience in the body of Christ.

“To Cheryl & TL (comments 132 & 133)

Oh, well that explains my confusion… You see, I was under the impression that God occasionally told us what to do, and even more strangely that we were supposed to obey Him for some reason….”

God tells us Truth. He also gives us direction and work to do with Him. When we are doing work with and for Him within the Plans that God has for humanity, yes God tells us what to do because those are His plans. God also gives us advice when we ask Him.

But God does not demand our everyday actions. He gives us freedom to grow and mature and works things out even within our mistakes. It is hugely improper to equate a human take the place of God in our lives and have the same authority in our lives as God does.

” oh, wait… Christ has All authority… yes, definitely a disconnect here.”

Christ has all authority over all humanity, over all creation because He is God in the flesh. However, as Cheryl has pointed out God has chosen not to use that authority over our personal lives in choices and coercing actions from us.

Even if you consider yourself to be a god to your wife, which I rather doubt you do, if you follow Christ’s example you must resist the temptation to use your godly authority requiring obedience to your wishes in her personal choices and activities.

It is God’s desire that we ALL mature into the fullness of maturity of the man Christ Jesus. We cannot do this if we allow other’s to make our choices for us. If we wish to help another human being, especially one who is part of us as a spouse is, then we must follow Christ’s example and seek to serve them in all aspects, rather than seek to exercise authority over them in all aspects.

Sue wrote: ””I do not feel that any person should have personal authority over another, due to the prevalence of sin. “

NN responded: ”Yet this is the instruction which the Bible repeatedly and explicitly gives us.

Rom 13:1 ~ Let every person be subject [hupotassoe] to the governing authorities [exousia]. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
(Titus 2:9, Titus 3:1, 1 Pet 2:13-18, Eph 6:1, Col 3:20, etc.)

Sue speaks of one individual exercising personal authority over another individual. And NN responds citing a group of people in a government exercising authority over towns, cities and nations. NN also cites the condition between masters and slaves which we know now that God never approved of or ordered. Perhaps, NN you think that God approves of the relationship between masters and slaves? Do you have slaves? As for children, such parental authority begins to diminish in the first year of the child’s life until the child reaches an age of personal accountability.

Personal authority over another is like two friends who have an hierarchical relationship. One exercises authority over the other, ruling over his decisions and actions, making choices for him, making decisions for him. In real life such a ‘friend’ would not be a friend for long.

Gengwall, because the metaphor is one of head of and body of, I suspect that the overall picture is one of connectivity and needing to stay connected for life of the relationship. Individually, we see the body needing to support the head for the life of both; and the head needing to nurture the body in order to maintain it’s own life as well.

“If both people involved are christians, does this then negate the “rank” and authority intrinsic in the relationship?”

NN, how does one add rank and authority to “oneness” without destroying the oneness.

”Lastly, Paul seemed to think that the marriage relationship does reflect the relationship of Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33). I think I’ll go with Paul on this one…”

but you are not going with Paul on this one.

”For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[d] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[e] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

The two shall become one flesh is a reference to marriage — of which Christ emulates. IOW Christ’s relationship with the church is likened to the oneness of a marriage. It is not the marriage relationship that reflects the Lord and the church. It is the relationship of Christ sacrificing Himself for the benefit of the church that is likened to a marriage. You have it backwards. And it is Christ’s example of sacrificial love that husbands are to emulate. It is always Christ that is the example. Human institutions cannot reflect or be the example of anything about God. God is the example of life and love which we must all learn to reflect.

Tiffany, are you noullan’s wife? I noticed you are linked to his page in livejournal.

It is true that in debates among Christians of all doctrinal leanings misrepresentation does happen. Looking over how Cheryl introduced NN’s statements, I do not see what you are saying at all. We are able to view NN’s actual words to discern and ask questions for ourselves.

NN, thanks for the link. Used to have a link to a particular area that gave me the ability to punch in an English word and get back a list of relevant greek words from which I could choose in order to get a detailed lexicon entry. But it looks different. Hope I can find that area.

As to your question, your statement has lots of negative connotations. God doesn’t really use us. He guides us to maturity, wholeness, healing, etc. from His Creative powers as God. God’s desires are always for our benefit, which is to His glory and honor. It is not a matter of authority, for even authority as we think of it was created by God. God is beyond ideas of authority over benevolent or otherwise. It is the fact that God created us for purposes that are pure and holy. And Jesus died to redeem us, not to exercise or demonstrate His benevolent power over us, but because God loves us.

The marriage relationship doesn’t actually reflect God’s relationship with us, otherwise we have men reflecting God and women reflecting fallen humanity. Rather, God’s love for us reflects the proper desire for man and woman to so live as to be unified as if one. God wants us to be one with Him. He wants to so deeply meld with our souls that we are as one, in perfect harmonious unity. This does not mean that we lose our identity or give up our personality. The unity is perfect when we yield to God’s holiness, knowledge and perfect love which is always given to us for our benefit which shows His honor and glory.

Husbands OTOH are not to exercise authority over their wives, benevolent or not. Rather, husbands are to love their wives sacrificially, as if she were his own body/life. Without her, his life is bereft. Thus, he gladly sacrificies whatever is necessary to help them stay in harmonious unity.

Thank you for the link to the blueletter Bible lexicon. It will do for now. However, I’m really trying to find some links to Liddel & Scott and a few more detailed resources, not just for that word but for all.

“however in the marital relationship a second type of love also exists [eros] which is not intrinsic to all christian relationships, and this type of love is naturally hierarchical as established by God.”

That is a rather strange view to think that erotic love is a hierarchical relationship between man and wife. This seems to imply that a woman’s sexuality is for the use of the husband according to his desires. Is that what you are saying?

Cheryl, do you have a good online source for lexicons of Greek and Hebrew words. I used to two easy to use and excellent ones and lost the links. I would like a more thorough description of the word hEgeomai.

BTW I do get a chuckle out of anyone saying that Scripture does not specifically say that husbands are to submit to their wives as if “one another” does not include us when we get married. Also, Scripture doesn’t specifically say that wives are to love their husbands. Some of the answers I get to that are that love comes naturally to a wife. So, maybe submission does also to the husband. 🙂 But then we have Ephe. 5:1-2 as well as Ephe. 5:21. Seems no one gets off the hook!

“Abusers are notorious for baiting their victims so they can claim they were attacked.”

So true. And also to get their victims to participate in order to feed the fire, which they thrive on. It is difficult to ascertain the situation in society by statistics. All the statistics are tainted. Pretty much I’d say that Satan has so warped the male female relationship by his influence that all women all over the world live under some degree of male violence and male domination. AND women in self defense have adopted some of the same tactics even with other women in order to sort of manage to hold their own standing and ‘freedoms’.

In many ways some countries have stepped back from some of the male power and control but not all. It’s like sin. We cannot eradicate sin. It will pop up here and there. We cannot eradicate male dominance, power and control because it is a sin issue which Satan has caused men to fall prey to. Even though we may make laws to stand against some of the fouler practices of it, this will only curb the practice to differing degrees in different countries depending upon their cultures. Ultimately, women must stand up with men against this and must do so from the standpoint of Scripture. Only the truths of Scripture and the HS are able to clear men’s and women’s minds from this evil.

As well, jocelyn, verbal abuse is so soul threatening that some women take on abusive responses in a mostly futile attempt to get the husband to just shut up. Then they get in the habit of also yelling and also cussing and also name calling. It really is difficult to take abuse in silence.

good links. thanks!