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Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

The question of women as guest speakers on Sunday mornings, referencing Joni Eareckson Tada as an example.

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

guest speakers Joni Eareckson Tada Sunday morning teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Women bloggers, podcasters, and YouTubers like Alisa Childers raise the same questions — she has more impact than most pastors.

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

complementarianism Alisa Childers women in online ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Additional practical questions: interviewing women, women on church boards, women evangelists, conference speakers, voting for a woman president, women as bosses, stay-at-home dads.

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

gender roles practical application women in leadership
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Can a woman correct a man's theology? Can a woman serve communion? The uncertainty causes women to hold back even from things they could do.

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

women correcting theology women serving communion soft complementarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mike's personal journey: he wanted to become egalitarian, prioritized egalitarian scholarship, read Philip Payne and Linda Belleville, but did not change his mind.

Mike's personal stance and research journey

soft complementarianism Philip Payne Linda Belleville
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

More has been written on women in ministry than perhaps any other issue in recent Christian scholarship.

Framing the volume of the debate

women in ministry biblical scholarship
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Self-assessment recommendation: ask yourself what view you WANT to have, to identify your own biases before studying.

Preparing to study the topic honestly

self-assessment bias awareness hermeneutics
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Series roadmap: Video 1 covers bypassing the Bible with bad logic; Video 2 covers Genesis 1-3 and whether the creation account supports male authority.

Series overview and roadmap

series roadmap Gen 1-3 creation order
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 3 will cover women in leadership in the Old Testament, including Deborah and egalitarian surveys of female leadership.

Series overview and roadmap

Judges Linda Belleville Deborah women in OT leadership
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 4 will address women in the New Testament: women as apostles, elders, deacons, and teachers, including the Junia question.

Series overview and roadmap

women deacons Junia women apostles
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 5 will cover Galatians 3:28 ('no male or female in Christ') — the egalitarian 'trump card.'

Series overview and roadmap

Gal 3:28 egalitarian proof text no male or female
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 6 will cover headship — whether husbands are 'head' of their wives. Egalitarians reject or redefine 'head' (kephale).

Series overview and roadmap

egalitarian scholarship kephale headship
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 7 will study the head coverings passage in 1 Corinthians 11 in great detail.

Series overview and roadmap

1 Cor 11 head coverings
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 8 will cover 1 Corinthians 14 — women being silent in the church.

Series overview and roadmap

1 Cor 14 women silent in church
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 9 will cover 1 Timothy 2 — the key complementarian passage about women not teaching or having authority over men, including the word authentein and the cult of Artemis.

Series overview and roadmap

1 Tim 2:12 authentein cult of Artemis
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 10 will be entirely about application — what ministry opportunities women should say yes or no to.

Series overview and roadmap

women in ministry practical application
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mike transitions to the main content: many people bypass the Bible on women in ministry, holding views based on philosophical beliefs rather than scripture.

Transition to main content — bypassing the Bible

bypassing scripture presuppositions
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Analogy to Trinity denial: some reject the Trinity not from scripture but from a philosophical conviction that 'three in one' is impossible, then read the Bible through that lens.

Bypassing the Bible — analogy

hermeneutics Trinity philosophical presuppositions
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Direct address to women in ministry: Mike is not questioning their hearts, impact, or calling them false teachers simply because they are women who teach.

Pastoral aside to women in ministry

women in ministry pastoral sensitivity false teacher accusation
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #1: Using life experience to answer what the Bible says — 'I know I'm called' as a bypass of scripture.

Mistake #1: Life experience overriding scripture

bypassing scripture calling experience-based theology
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Life experience bypasses scripture on both sides: 'A woman pastor ministered to me' (egalitarian) or 'Women have frequently been false teachers' (complementarian).

Mistake #1: Life experience overriding scripture

bypassing scripture experience-based theology false teachers
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #2: Believing women in ministry is simply a result of the evils of feminism.

Mistake #2: Evils of feminism

bypassing scripture feminism complementarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #3: Believing it is the 'evils of patriarchy' that must be fought — egalitarians who frame complementarians as patriarchalists use privilege/power language to bypass scripture.

Mistake #3: Evils of patriarchy

bypassing scripture patriarchy egalitarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

This anti-patriarchy presupposition leads egalitarian scholars to one of two conclusions: the Bible does not teach patriarchy, or the Bible teaches it and is wrong.

Mistake #3: Evils of patriarchy

egalitarian scholarship Bible and patriarchy biblical authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #4: Believing that equality of personhood philosophically rules out differences in roles. Mike introduces Rebecca Merrill Groothuis and her work.

Mistake #4: Equality of personhood rules out role differences

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis equality of personhood role differences
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis's argument appears in chapter 20 of 'Discovering Biblical Equality' — a brand new edition of the premier egalitarian multi-author volume that Mike read including an advance copy.

Mistake #4: Equality of personhood rules out role differences

egalitarian scholarship Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Discovering Biblical Equality
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis's syllogism: if women's subordination is permanent, comprehensive, and ontologically grounded, then women are inferior persons; women are not inferior; therefore subordination is unjustified.

Mistake #4: Analyzing Groothuis's syllogism

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Discovering Biblical Equality syllogism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mike agrees women are not inferior persons but argues that submissive roles and inferior personhood are not the same thing — children submit to parents, employees to bosses.

Mistake #4: Rebutting Groothuis's syllogism

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis submission vs. inferiority personhood
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis's three qualifications — permanent, comprehensive, ontologically grounded — do not describe what complementarians actually believe or what the Bible teaches.

Mistake #4: Rebutting Groothuis's qualifications

complementarianism Rebecca Merrill Groothuis permanent subordination
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Rebuttal: women's submission is not permanent — it is limited to this life, and Christians should not view this life as their permanent state. Most Christians permanently submit to elders anyway.

Mistake #4: Rebutting 'permanent'

eldership duration of submission eternal perspective
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Rebuttal: women's submission is not comprehensive — Groothuis claims there is 'no area in which a woman has any authority, privilege, or opportunity that a man is denied,' which massively overstates complementarian claims.

Mistake #4: Rebutting 'comprehensive'

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Discovering Biblical Equality comprehensive submission
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Many egalitarians expand male authority to its most monstrous extreme to make it intolerable, causing readers to reject complementarianism before ever reading the Bible.

Mistake #4: Egalitarian rhetorical strategy

bypassing scripture straw man argument egalitarian rhetoric
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis's argument only works against an extreme form of complementarianism that most complementarians would also reject — it attacks a straw man.

Mistake #4: Straw man critique

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis straw man argument relational submission
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Rebuttal: women's submission is not ontologically grounded — it is not rooted in women's nature making them inherently submissive.

Mistake #4: Rebutting 'ontologically grounded'

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis ontological grounding nature vs. assignment
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis defines 'human' as having higher rational functions including decision-making, then argues that denying women leadership over men is inherently dehumanizing.

Mistake #4: Analyzing Groothuis's definition of human

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis definition of human dehumanization argument
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mike argues unexpressed human capacities do not make someone less human — children who die young have unexpressed capacities but are not less human.

Mistake #4: Rebutting Groothuis's definition of human

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis dehumanization argument unexpressed capacities
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

The Levite analogy: Levites had exclusive priestly roles based on tribal lineage (nature), not ability — yet non-Levites were not less human. Groothuis addresses but does not defeat this.

Mistake #4: Levite analogy against Groothuis

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Levites priestly roles
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

If countless generations under Levitical role restrictions for hundreds of years is acceptable, why would one lifetime of gender-based role differences be dehumanizing?

Mistake #4: Levite analogy continued

Levites nature-based roles temporary vs. permanent
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis's rebuttal that prophets had more authority than Levites is a red herring — Levites were the regular, widespread spiritual authorities throughout Israel.

Mistake #4: Levite analogy — responding to Groothuis's counter

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Levites prophets
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Tom Schreiner's response to Groothuis: egalitarians face the 'daunting prospect' of saying non-priestly Israelites had less dignity than Levites.

Mistake #4: Schreiner's critique of Groothuis

Levites Tom Schreiner Two Views on Women in Ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Additional analogy: only a son of David could be king of Israel — this eliminates most people from the highest authority by nature, yet does not make them less human.

Mistake #4: Davidic kingship analogy

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis nature-based roles Davidic kingship
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Israel as God's chosen nation is another example: other nations could not qualify no matter how faithful, yet this does not make them less human.

Mistake #4: Chosen nation analogy

nature-based roles Israel as chosen nation election
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

A possibility Groothuis ignores: role can be associated with nature but not grounded in nature — God assigns roles by association, not by saying one nature is inferior.

Mistake #4: The overlooked possibility

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis associated vs. grounded divine assignment
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Possible non-inferiority reasons for role differences: picturing Christ and the Church, societal order, or unstated divine purposes. Groothuis rejects all of these.

Mistake #4: Alternative explanations Groothuis ignores

Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Christ and the Church Eph 5
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Even if Groothuis is right philosophically, her conclusion explicitly blocks Bible reading — she says there can be 'no biblical or theological warrant' for women's submission, which pre-determines what the Bible is allowed to say.

Mistake #4: How Groothuis's argument bypasses scripture

bypassing scripture biblical authority Rebecca Merrill Groothuis
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Philip Payne's related argument in 'Man and Woman, One in Christ': if we are equal in Christ, we cannot exclude anyone from leadership based on gender.

Mistake #4: Payne's variant of the philosophical argument

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ equality in Christ
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mike's rebuttal to Payne: role differences are about God's calling/assignment, not nature or equality in Christ. Payne's logic would make eldership part of what it means to be Christian.

Mistake #4: Rebutting Payne

eldership Philip Payne equality in Christ
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Both Groothuis and Payne's philosophical arguments kill Bible study by leaving only two options: the Bible supports egalitarianism, or the Bible is wrong.

Mistake #4: Conclusion

bypassing scripture Philip Payne biblical authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #5: The argument that complementarianism leads to abuse and is therefore wrong — the most common argument Mike encounters.

Mistake #5: Complementarianism leads to abuse

domestic abuse complementarianism and abuse story-driven theology
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Story-driven theology uses real horrific abuse examples to claim they are the automatic result of complementarianism, which keeps people from reading the Bible.

Mistake #5: Story-driven theology

bypassing scripture domestic abuse story-driven theology
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