Kay, that’s good and don’t forget Rachel. She also named the children of her husband through her maid.

Excellent comments, gengwall (as usual!) 🙂

Perhaps Neo could send Grudem our way. Would anyone like to see Grudem attempt to answer the Biblical argument here? Would you all be welcoming to Grudem and treat him as a brother (although a brother in error)? If so, perhaps someone would like to issue the challenge and see if Neo can pull some strings to get the one who is better than Neo to engage.

Of course it is easy for Neo to claim that he has refuted me without having to deal with the refutation of his “refutation”. And is Grudem able to refute this Biblical argument? Well I asked CBMW to do this in 2006 and they would not. So I highly doubt that Grudem will refute this Biblical argument now, but if he is so inclined to try, I welcome him. After all if my interpretation is wrong, it deserves to be refuted. If it is right, then it deserves to be tested and accepted. Either way the fact that CBMW has just chosen to ignore the argument and refused to refute it doesn’t speak well of their ability.

But I do give Neo credit for trying. He has given a very unusual interpretation that fails the Biblical test, but the fact that he tried certainly gets the bonus award. He is far more of a Christian man than those who have merely run away. And those who ran are his heroes. Go figure.

And of course that leads straight to the question – What do the barren wives do? Wives married to sterile husbands? Women who never get a marriage proposal or never meet a man they’d like to give one?

I guess these ones must be ineligible for salvation. But even for the ones who have children, they are not saved unless “all women” remain in the faith in their God-given “roles”.

The question is, does anyone see any hope for any woman in this kind of statement? I sure don’t.

Thoughts?

There it is – the official Women in Ministry “Jolly Good Try” award with the bonus wisdom to try again!

If anyone wants to go to Neo’s blog to let him know that he has an award to pick up at the place where he has been refuted (once again!) he might like it.

Kay,
I think he should get some kind of award for that. I will see what I can do 🙂

Great point gengwall! He just “antecedent” himself past his own comfort zone and your point is well taken!

Maybe Neo should take his antecedent back one more so that he can connect “they” to all men thus “Any woman will be saved through (the Messiah) if all men continue in the faith…”

No matter what, women are in trouble with his interpretation. Can any of us be saved? Yikes!

The biggest problem for Neo is that he makes the salvation of “any woman” dependent on all women remaining in the faith. So if any woman doesn’t remain in the faith we are all damned? Oy vey.

i.e. Any woman will be saved through the childbearing if all woman continue in the faith…

Sounds like an impossibility for any woman to be saved then because I know some women who didn’t remain in the faith. I think that if Neo had placed his ABCCBA into verse 15 as he has it listed, he might have looked over at his wife and said “Sorry honey…I don’t think you are going to make it because your salvation depends on the faithfulness of all women.” And he thinks this is a better interpretation than mine? I know of not a single person who would believe Neo’s interpretation and likely not Neo’s wife either.

Welcome Sam to my blog!

Wow, good point about making time to know and love our neighbour! And for sure you shouldn’t get any nasty responses on your comment here, my brother.

Sorry, guys that this post is so long. I didn’t want to leave any stone unturned to refute each one of Neopatriarch’s points. It will be interesting to see if he takes another stab at refuting me. The least he can do is try to answer my questions. I invite Neopatriarch over here answer the questions. The one who makes his position public should be willing to answer the hard questions and respond to the challenge. I am always willing to be challenged and I welcome the challenge. You too Neopatriarch?

Excellent gengwall. I especially like the “iron sharpens iron”. This is where we get to share our gifts with each other. If only one is the spiritual leader, the sole messenger from God, then there is no such thing as a husband and wife living out the “iron sharpens iron” exchange of thoughts and gifts. That would be sad.

Also think how bad a husband can feel when his wife is better at the Scriptures than he is. With the thought that he must be more knowledgeable and a better handler of the Bible than she is as the comps teach that only the husband is the Spiritual leader over his wife, I would think that it would be a blow to the husband to have her excel at all above him. And I would also think that it would cause a wife to want to tone down her knowledge in the Scriptures in order to make her husband look more spiritual. This isn’t the message of the Bible where we are individually called to a relationship with God and individually to excel in our Bible knowledge and our ability to “rightly divide the Word of truth”.

truthseeker,
Your comments made me chuckle 🙂

I see many men being pushed into the “leadership” role (think rulership, boss, authority over) and if they are not natured that way or do not want to take authority over their wives, they are called names for their “weak” position. I think this is very detrimental to men to those who are naturally submissive and pushing some men to “lead” (again read here rulership, boss, authority over) where these ones have a problem with an overbearing nature doesn’t help them either. And not even considering what it does to their women.

25 gengwall,

You said:

Never once does Christ, in the husband/wife relationship with his church, ever take authority. He does only three things ever, serve, sacrifice, and intercede. Those are the characteristics of the “head” as Paul speaks of it.

This is one of the best descriptions of husbandly “head” that I have ever seen!

There can be no masters if all act as servants.

Exactly. The question then should be whether Jesus told any of his followers to act as masters toward others. I don’t see it. Men are not to be masters, they are to be servants. Women are not to be masters, they are to be servants. If we all took this to heart, likely we would never hear of the “husband as boss” argument again.

The next question should be whether acting as a servant to your wife is considered a sin. It appears to be a “sin” to many popular comp teachers who teach that the man must take authority over his wife or risk being less of a man.

Thoughts?

24 Mark,

Cheryl i cant help but feel that you base the comp position on yours and others experience, rather than the bible.

That’s because I don’t see the position in the Bible. The only thing I see is how the comp position works itself out in the lives of its followers. Since I was a comp for most of my marriage and since I have had many women write me over the last 3 years telling me their own experience and I have seen how the teaching has gone beyond the Scripture with the popular complementarian teachers, I have felt great saddness for the hurt that the body of Christ feels over this adding of the comp doctrine to the Scripture.

You refered to seeing “what male rulership looks like even if the intent is benevolent. “- Is this not an argument based on sinful man not scripture. I am truly sorry for the abuse people have faced by mis-use of authority.

This is why Jesus never gives men authority over their wives. We are all sinful and an absolute authority over another member of the body of Christ feeds our sin nature that loves to feel like we are special and have something and someone that we can control. Jesus never gave this kind of control to husbands nor did he take this kind of control over this own sheep when he was here on the earth. Instead he revealed what a godly husband looked like through his loving care and sacrificial attitude. When Jesus was asked to take over the decision-making place because of a dispute between two brothers and their inheritance, Jesus said:

Luk 12:14 But He said to him, “Man, who appointed Me a judge or arbitrator over you?”

Jesus doesn’t make all of our decisions for us and He doesn’t appoint the husband to make all of the decisions for the wife either. We are required to grow up and learn how to be mature Christians who make mature decisions. God will give us wisdom when we ask for it, but He doesn’t treat us as children by making all of our decisions for us so that we don’t have to work at it at all.

I do not see myself as a weak comp, but rather am actually interested in understanding you position and engaging in dialogue rather than just ignoring you.

Ah, a Christian after my own heart! I really appreciate you saying this. This touches at the core of what I believe. We need to work hard to understand each other. We cannot dismiss an argument because of our own preconceived ideas. Once we know what the other person believes, we are able to take that belief and test it by the only straight edge that we have – and that is the Word of God.

If that makes me seem weak, so be it, but i am simply trying to do what you ask of comps-talk to you.

No I don’t see you as “weak” in your belief at all. And I highly respect you for sticking around long enough to listen and give your response. I also do not believe that what you have to say has no value. Each one of us can teach the other and I do not believe that any of us can say that we have no need for the other. You are am important part of the body of Christ and the wisdom that God has given you is of great value.

You said that the christ/church, husband/wife analogy has no authority and is simply tradition. Cheryl how wrong you are! What about Ephesians 23 ff. What is Pauls repsponse in verse 32 – it is PRIMARILY a reflection of Christ and the Church.

Jesus Christ is both God and man. The husband is to reflect the humanity of Christ and His place as “head” but the husband is never given the place as “Lord” or “God” over the wife. I would hope that we can agree on this. Jesus’ place as our kinsman Redeemer is also his place as the husband of the Church. What we can see from his position as husband “head” is that he lifted us up to be with him.

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Then Jesus put all things under our feet! The Scriptures never say that He places the Bride under His feet or that He takes His authority over her. Yes, as God He has great authority over each one of us, but as the human Redeemer, the human Husband of the Bride, He lovingly cares for us and lifts us up. This is what I have been talking about – the husband lifting his bride up – not the husband taking authority over her. As the Bride of Christ we will reign with him. Ruling and reigning means that we need to be mature decision-makers.

And any exegesis which tries to talk about ‘head’ not having any authority is absurd. And im sure you will appeal to not having a ‘plain’ reading of this passage.

I didn’t say that Jesus as God doesn’t have authority. What I am saying is that as husband He doesn’t take authority over His wife. Instead He lifts her up to sit beside Him. Perhaps you can explain the way you see Ephesians 2:6? Also do you see Jesus as placing the church under His feet showing His rule over her as Husband?

One last point. The comp position in NO way encourages abuse or anything of the like. If people think it does, it is purely an indication that they dont understand the comp position very well.

No, I do not think that any of the comp leaders conscientiously encourage abuse. However their application of what they feel is the comp position in the Scriptures gives the husband the power to live out his kingly-rule over his wife in the way that he feels is best for her. Since we are all sinners, the advice for men to rule their wives and take authority over them and make their decisions for them as the ultimate decision-maker of the family has done far more harm than any of them ever imagined.

I am very glad that you are the kind of person that is willing to dialog. That shows your openness not only to examine yourself and your own motives but a willingness to offer correction in a loving and honest way to a sister in Christ. I couldn’t ask more from you than this right now. It is very much appreciated!

45 Gengwall,

[1] Paul repeats this in Colossians 3:20,22, even including “in all things”. Clearly, the obedience in all things of children to their parents or slaves to their masters differs from the submission in all things asked of wives toward their husbands. The difference is clear. Our task is to mine out what that difference means, not try to make two obviously different things mean the same thing.

Excellent! You are showing us all that mining out the meaning of Paul’s words is hard work and the “easy” way out is to disregard the fact that Paul uses different words and said in a different way.

The fact is that we are all to grow up and be mature.

1 Cor 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

The way that the complementarian position is preached from popular comp preachers would mean that women of all those in the body of Christ are the only ones who are not required to “grow up” since they just sit back and let the man make all the decisions. Children grow up and make their own decisions as do women who are not married. But married women are to walk in a position of obedience to anything that is not sin and thus give up their ability to be wise in decision making ability? Is this really what the Scriptures say? It can’t be since all of us, and that includes married women are to grow up in maturity and in making mature decisions.

28 Mark,

Sorry for the slowness. I am trying to slow down some as ministry work has taken up so much time and I am working on my first book. It isn’t easy to carve out a few hours at a time and when I do, its hard to quit!

You said:

I do not think i live out an egal marriage. I do try to love and serve my wife as if it is my own body.

To me your marriage seems much more egalitarian than many marriages. Compared to the way my marriage used to be you are a semi-egalitarian. Or as you put it, on the egalitarian side of complementarian.

I try hard not to abuse my position of leadership and focus my energy and helping my wife and children become more like Christ.

I think that it is wonderful that you are trying to help your wife and kids become more like Christ. However many comps think that they know what their wife needs more than their wife knows and as way of thinking that allows them to believe they are the ones gifted with defining and directing their wives, their direction can become abusive without them understanding what has happened. Take a look at this article I wrote and see if it seems at all odd to you when it is dealing with full grown women who are supposed to be mature:
http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2009/01/30/man-give-woman-self-understanding/

However my wife recognises that although co heirs in the grace of Christ, i bear a certain resposiblitly for our family that she does not.

I appreciate that you wife can think this way. This is the way that I used to think before I looked at this issue thoroughly from the Scriptures. What I found is that women are supposed to be overseers in the home as well and Scripture does not say that only the males are the rulers of the home. (See 1 Timothy 5:14 and look up the Greek term that is translated as “keep house”. It is amazing at what is there in the Scriptures that has not been emphasized or pointed out to us.)

But she will ultimatley leave the decision up to me as the ‘head’ of our family to make the right decision. She willingly submits to me in this way and respects me as her husband, of which i am eternally grateful.

I understand what you are saying because, again, this is where I was at. But I did not grow in my ability to make decisions through many years of marriage. Leaving the decisions up to the husband is not an approach taught by the Scriptures. Rather we are to practice our ability to decide and judge. If your wife leaves all that up to you and you let her get away with not having to make decisions on her own even if she might make a bad decision, she is not growing to be all that she can be in the Lord.

My own testimony is listed here http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2009/07/05/wayne-grudem-part-2/#comments on comment #43. I would like to ask you to read it and think it through. Is the Scripture really telling us to set the women’s decision-making ability aside so that men make all the decisions? If the way that I have grown by my husband’s decision to set me free from being under his decision-making authority, then show us where we are wrong.

She recognises that i am sinful and Christ is not, and ultimately Christ is her Lord not me. and even as the head if i tried to lead her astray she would refuse.

It just seems that the maturity that we are to have in Christ is not being nurtured in a marriage where the only time the wife gets to make her own decision is when you are sinning. That just doesn’t sound like a sacrificial life-style to me on the part of the husband. Perhaps I am seeing more because my husband sacrifices for me and is willing to give up what he wants in order to benefit me. He doesn’t see himself as the boss any longer nor does he see himself as needing to take authority over me. When he did that it harmed both of us. We had a faulty view of what “head” means and now we understand that “sacrifice” is one of the very top words that describe a “head”. Someone who places the term “authority over the wife” in the definition of “head” just doesn’t understand the example that Jesus gave us for marriage. I am not saying that you don’t love your wife or that you don’t want the best for her. But perhaps God has granted her to know His best for her directly without going through you. After all He is sinless and you are not, right?

I am saddened though that men abuse the comp pos for their own glorification. Any comp i know would not restrict women preaching to women and the like.

All of the key complementarian teachers deny women the freedom to preach. They say that this is given to men alone and that women’s “role” is different. It is good to know that you and your friends are much more tolerant. How refreshing to find more of you out there. Perhaps you might want to join us in pushing for freedom for women to serve in their gifts so that “preaching” and “teaching” is not considered male “roles”.

I do not think people miss out on anything by not having a woman pastor/preaher- the word of God is not gender orientated. They miss out if preachers are gender orientated.

You are right in that the Word of God is not gender orientated. However we are individuals and we express ourselves differently. What would the world be like if there were only Fathers and no mothers? I have had the privilege of having male and female teachers and I have found a difference between the two. Perhaps if you had more female teachers you may see the same thing as I do. The fact is that we women are not redundant and just good enough if there are no men available. Our gifts are needed in the Church today and anything that the Holy Spirit gives should be celebrated in my opinion. Perhaps you have a different opinion but do you have enough information to make a decision that women teachers are not needed for you? How come we are told that we cannot say that another part of the body is not needed for us?

1 Cor 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I</b? have no need of you.”

I’m not sure whether you see yourself as gifted in teaching, but you are definately gifted in writing. I have never seen somebody so able to write as much as you do 🙂

Thank you! I see myself as better in writing than in person but I was “in person” for 16 years in discipling a group of ex-JWs and whenever I tried to get someone to replace me, it would fall flat on its face. Perhaps the people just didn’t give them a chance. I don’t know. But there were people when I left that area who had come for most of the 16 years to listen to me. I guess that must mean something. I sure do appreciate that you would take the time to say something good to me! That is a real blessing to me!

Hi Jeremiah,
Welcome to my blog!

You said:

Both Adam and Eve attempt to pin the blame for their actions on another yet both are finally held responsible for their disobedience in eating the fruit. A lot of speculation about precisely how the man or woman sinned that expounds on gender roles seems wasteful to me because it finally is locating sin in some place other than ignoring God’s warning about eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

While it is true that both Adam and Eve are ultimately responsible for the sin of eating the fruit, and both of them will die from eating that fruit, they are not held equally responsible. Only the man’s actions brings a curse. Eve’s does not.

Paul picks up on this and deals with the issue around the intent of one’s heart. Eve was “led astray”:

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

..while Adam’s action was treacherous (Hosea 6:7)

Paul said that he received mercy, not because he did his bad deeds in full knowledge of what he was doing, but he received mercy because he did his actions ignorantly and in unbelief. This goes beyond merely locating sin by the action. It also takes into consideration also the condition of the heart. Of course only God is capable of this kind of judging as He alone is God who sees the heart.

1 Tim 1:13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Hey guys,

All of your comments and discussions here are thought-provoking and great! I had intended to get to more of the comments, but I spent myself by posting that testimony. Thanks for your good comments on my own journey!

I will pop in and out as I can. I am really trying hard to be more balanced so that means I have to juggle a few more balls and go to bed at a decent hour. I actually took time off yesterday to bake some chocolate chip muffins. Yummy and nutritious too with zucchini and some applesauce instead of too much fat.

So keep going without me and I will comment again as I am able while I put on another hat which is also pleasing to my husband. See you in a bit!

Lots of love,
Cheryl

Mark #35,

I am behind at least a day in my responses so I will be working backwards through the comments.

You said:

My wife and i have no decided that i make the final call because i am a better decison maker or the like. I make the final call because we both believe that God has made the husband as the ‘head’ of the wife i.e- the primary leader of the family.

If you are the better decision maker then it is a loving thing to help your wife get to the same place you are at. This doesn’t happen by making all the final decisions. We are all called to be mature, discerning and able to make godly decisions. I will give you the Biblical reference for this first and then give you my own experience.

In 1 Corinthians 6 Paul tells us that we need to be mature so that we can judge matters in this life. Paul says that the matters of this life are necessary for us to judge because in the next life we will be judging the world and the angels. Paul is not too happy at all that instead of bringing the issues of judging to the body of Christ (who should be growing in their maturity to judge) , the people are going to judges outside the church. Paul says that this is a shame to them since our position in the body of Christ will be to rule and reign with Christ and our position will be that of judges for far weightier matters in the next life.

In this importance in learning how to judge matters, Paul shows that we have the authority to make decisions for ourselves and he gives even women this decision making power in 1 Corinthians 11.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (ISV) This is why a woman should have authority over her own head: because of the angels.

The woman is to have the right and power to make a decision on what she does or doesn’t wear on her head. Why? Because of the angels. Paul has already told us that we are all going to be judging the angels. If we will have this great responsibility in the next life, surely we are also to have the responsibility in this life to make the judgment call on what we do or don’t wear on our head. We are called to be mature and learn how to make decisions.

This passage has been bungled by so many translators because the original Greek conflicts with their preconceived notion that a woman is to be under her husband’s authority instead of having equal authority over her own decisions. So instead of translating the verse in the way that it was inspired, they added words to make it seem like Paul is saying that a woman must wear something to show that she is under her husband’s authority. But this is not what Paul said and not what the Holy Spirit inspired. She is to have her own authority regarding her own decisions because she too will be judging angels in the next life.

The Greek term that Paul uses here for the word “authority” is a term that always means that the person themselves has the power and right to make a decision or do an action. It never means that the person is under someone else’s authority. Look it up for yourself and you will see that what I am saying is true.

So here is the deal. We are all to grow up and be mature. We are all to learn how to make wise decisions because we are all going to be in the position of judges in the future. We will rule and reign with Christ. The problem is that men think that being head means that they are the ones responsible for making all of the final decisions for the woman. This is not true and it is not Biblical. All of us are responsible and all of us are to grow up and be mature.

If you look at the Proverbs 31 woman you find her making all kinds of decisions for her household. Her husband is not making her decisions for her and her decision-making ability is so good that her husband trusts in her. Read it for yourself and you will see that what I am saying is true. Today our Proverbs 31 women are wonderful decision-making women who understand that they are called to be mature for they too will be judging the angels in the next life.

So what happens when a woman is not so good at making decisions? Is she helped when her husband makes all the final decisions? No. This keeps her dependent and does not help her to press on to maturity in this area. A husband who is a godly man and who is a godly example should be working to sacrifice for his wife in order to bring her up to his level. This is the true meaning of a godly “head”. It doesn’t mean that he makes all the final decisions. It means that he gives up of himself to lift her up – to grow her into maturity as a godly woman. Some women are there already but others need the help of their husbands to open the door for them to grow, to mature and to serve.

I am one who needed the door opened to me. In our marriage, we had the true comp view where the husband makes all the final decisions. I was only 15 when I met him and he was much more mature than I was even though he wasn’t even two years older. A few years later at the start of our marriage, he made all the final decisions. We did make some together but in essence every single decision was his decision. If we agreed then it was his way because we agreed on it. If we didn’t agree, then it was his way because we disagreed. Either way he made all the decisions.

If I went to the store and saw an electric frying pan was on sale and I felt that I needed it because my old one wasn’t working all that well and I bought it (this is a true story), I was subject to his decision making power when I got home. His decision was that I didn’t need it and the old one was good enough. As if I was a little child unable to make a proper decision, I had to take it back. He did this because he felt his decisions were wiser than mine and he was acting on my behalf because he made better decisions. What this did was keep me in a dependent and in a child-like state. I never grew. One grows the fastest when one is allowed to make mistakes because a mistake is a great teacher.

Because I have always been by nature a shy person who would rather be a peace-maker than fight, I allowed myself to be taken over. He made all the decisions and I was taken care of. The comp teaching that a woman was created to need a leader was what we believed. However it not only didn’t allow me to grow, but I came to the place where I didn’t even know who I was as a person. I did whatever he wanted me to do and I became an appendage of his personality. That was not healthy for me.

Nothing changed until we had a crisis where I drew the line in the sand. There were friends that I made that he didn’t want me to have. Through different circumstances God caused my husband to finally let go and stop being my protector. I needed to grow up and be mature so that I could take my place in the body of Christ as a fully mature member of the body. As my husband let go of the decision making power over me, he did the very best thing for me. He gave up the control so that he could allow me to make my own mistakes. He knew having these people as my friends was a big mistake, but God told him to allow me to have these friends.

That started me on a journey that was painful and hurt me a great deal because they were not the kind of people I thought they were. They used me to help them in their own ministry and then when the issue of women teaching the bible to men became an issue between us, they treated me as if I wasn’t worth the effort to even wipe their shoes off on me. I was a non-person and I was left very hurt. That may sound very bad and that I should have had my husband protecting me, but it was the very best thing for me. Because of this I grew up.

Instead of remaining in a protected environment where my husband made all my decisions, my safety net was removed and I was forced to make my own decisions and that has been the very best thing for me. It was painful for my husband to watch, but now he admits that the growth that he has seen in me has been amazing.

Because of my foray into a relationship with a couple who left me because of the issue of whether or not God forbids women to teach the Bible to men, my passion for understanding the hard passages of Scripture on this issue brought about the DVD set “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?” Without the push from that painful relationship where I was eventually shunned, my intense learning on this subject and the DVD set that has helped so many people would never have happened. This was a God thing for sure and I am certain that the pastors and others who have been helped by the teaching that God gave me in this DVD would praise God with me for those friends. Without them the DVD would never have been in existence and neither would this blog have come into existence. Praise the Lord that all things work together (even what seems to be bad) for good to them that love God and are called according to His purpose!

So for almost 30 years I was kept in a subordinate position because my husband felt he had to protect me as he was my “head”. But now we are full partners and as my “head” he supports me, nourishes me in giving me opportunities for service even though he would like to keep me for himself and not share me with the world. He is the most awesome, wonderful man I have ever met and the sacrifice that he has made to allow me the opportunity to grow and mature and to open doors for me where doors had been closed, makes him the absolute best example of a “head” that I have ever seen.

The “head” is to support and nourish and bring out the best in his “body”. His sacrifice to allow me to grow by giving up control over my “mistakes” has been an absolute blessing from God. It has been less than 10 years now. But I have grown more in the last 10 years than I did in the almost 30 years of marriage before that. By sacrificing of himself and his belief that his decisions for me were the best, he has seen me mature to the place where he has many people tell him how amazing I am and how gifted I am in the Scriptures. I am not trying to lift myself up here. I am trying to show how my husband has benefited me and because of this he has received back great praise and joy in me, his wife, from his decision to stop being the ultimate and final decision maker.

Now we make all decisions together. In the areas where he is gifted and knowledgeable, he has full support from me to to operate in his gifting and to make all the wise decisions. In the areas where I am gifted and knowledgeable, he trusts me with those decisions. And when we come to a place where we disagree, we do not go forward by overriding either one of our wills. We use that as an opportunity for patience and prayer. And if a decision must be made quickly, I either submit to him or he sacrifices for me. It is all working out for the glory of God because God is the who is our true leader and we trust Him to work in our marriage for the ultimate good of both of us.

So, Mark, I would like to encourage you as your wife’s “head” to prepare her to be a judge of angels and a judge of the world in the next life. How will you do this? It won’t be by keeping her under your authority. If you really do believe that you have authority, then realize that it is God’s will for you to use your authority to bring her up to your level. If you feel that you are going to present her to God at the judgment, then present her as a fully functional decision-maker that you have helped her to grow into so that she can take her place as one who will also rule and reign with Christ. As her “head” you cannot do any better for her than to open the doors for her and sacrifice for her until she is just as good as you are in her decision-making power.

Years ago I couldn’t even look people in the eye. I was painfully shy and even though I led the bible teaching and support for a whole group of former Jehovah’s Witnesses into faith in Christ for a period of 16 years, I still was unsure of myself, painfully shy and did my ministry work with fear and trembling. Today I am confident and able to take on the challenges from those who want to hold women back in ministry and although I am still the same gracious person I always was, I am stronger than I even imagined I could be and I won’t back down from those who want to take scripture out of context. I am on the executive board of two corporations, both set up to bring the gospel to the hurting. My husband is absolutely amazed at my growth, but I say that he is responsible for it. He provided the way for me to change and grow that came as a result of his sacrifice and support. He gave me the foundation to build on and his willingness to change from the tradition that we had been raised in has done nothing but good for me. He no longer controls me and “leads” me by making my decisions. He has become this amazing sacrifice, giving up his own dreams for the future to stand beside me in ministry. He praises me for my gifts and as my “head” he lifts me up to give everything to me for my benefit that I need in order to minister to others without obstacles in my way.

I still submit to him as I always have because I love him with a passion as I have never loved anyone else this way before. I am also listening to him when he speaks about his concern for the long hours that I work and I am trying to cut back so that we have more of a life together that is outside the intense work. I can honor him that way and he deserves my best too!

This is my testimony and it is my husband’s testimony as well. Neither one of us would ever go back to the “husband as decision maker of the family” again. And my husband knows that he has accomplished his job as “head” in his sacrifice and support because if he ever were called by God to present me to God, he can do so as one who supported, encouraged and strengthened my ability to serve God and he has serve both myself and God in order to take my place as one who has also been called to rule and reign with Christ.

Dear Captain Planet (cool name!)

I agree that most egalitarians do not preach on the hard passages of Scripture like 1 Timothy 2:12-15 but I am different. Here is why. I believe that if you have your scriptures that seem to restrict women and I have mine that free women to serve, what good is that? All we have is scriptural ping-pong. The fact is that the correct Scriptural position we deal with each passage of Scripture in a clear and honest way from the context without disregarding any of the inspired words or the inspired grammar. That means that the 1 Timothy 2 passage cannot be ignored because the Scripture must not contradict itself.

So why would God tell all of these intelligent women to keep silent (regarding preaching)?

He didn’t. Just look up 1 Cor. 14 on my sidebar and read about what this passage means and doesn’t mean. There cannot be contradictions!

Why is there such a fight by women to be preachers?

When God calls a person no matter who they are, the person must respond. If you had a passion inside you to obey God but you are told you cannot because you are, say, an Italian, would that satisfy you? God’s gifting and God’s calling makes us passionate to serve God.

Is the pulpit the final frontier of feminism?

The “pulpit” is an invention of mankind. It isn’t in the Bible. If you want to know what I really think about the pulpit, just do a word search on my blog for pulpit.

Is it a Gideon type of deal where the men were not up to par so the woman took the initiative?

Nope. God has always had his men. If he wanted to use only males there was never a time when God had none.

If he can change on this issue what else of the Apostles foundation is obsolete?

God didn’t change at all. God never had a law that forbid godly women from teaching the truth of God’s Word to anyone.

I have been using Spiros Zhodiates for the greek and hebrew words. I do not like commentaries much because you can find a commentary on any position.

I like Zhodiates a lot. But I have a lot of Biblical helps that are very precious to me. It is such a pleasure to study God’s Word and I don’t read the commentaries very often.

From what I have read the book of Timothy consists of Paul instructing Timothy how to set the general church in order according to God’s order.

The order that was to be set was mostly about the issues of false doctrine and false teachers and setting up elders within the area of ability so that the false teachers did not destroy the church.

In every case roles of teaching the general body are designated to faithful men.

This isn’t true. The literal meaning is this:

2 Tim. 2:2 (ALT) And what you heard from me through many witnesses, these [things] be committing to trustworthy people, who will be competent also to teach others.

The grammar here is the generic for people. It is the same as what is used of salvation. Although the finer points of grammar are the generic with male tense, it doesn’t mean men only any more than all the salvation passages with the same grammar mean that only men can be saved.

When it comes to teaching the general body the scripture says that women should keep silent.

My DVD set will correct this error if you wish to order it.

The book of Titus tells us plainly which women are to teach and to whom they should teach.

It is interesting to note that the Bible never says that women should teach the Bible to other women. It says that women should teach other women to love their husbands and how to manage their homes, etc. If we took this as a limit on women’s teaching, then no woman could teach the Bible to another woman just because it isn’t listed in the Scriptures.

There are no examples of women teaching the church except Jezebel (may be figurative of a gov) in Revelation.

I won’t get into the answer here except to say that there is no law forbidding something from silence.

Priciilla with her husband expounded to apollos.

Yet if we take 1 Timothy 2:12 a woman cannot teach a man period. That leaves Priscilla not obeying Scripture? Or how did she get away with teaching? It doesn’t say that a woman can teach a man if another man is with her. It is a prohibition without qualification.

None of them baptised.

Oh my, I hope you don’t argue from silence on everything. This is not a healthy thing to assume.

I see a lot of sincere sisters preaching well. But is it right? I continually ask God to give me understanding where I lack.

I believe that God will answer a sincere prayer. But don’t forget that if you are drowning and looking for a rope to be thrown your way, don’t disregard God’s provision of a Savior in a boat. God may not provide exactly the way you think He should, but keep your eyes open to His provision. You are here after all on my blog, right? Perhaps this blog is God’s answer?

I think you would be a good person to interview on the truthmatters show with pastor sean finnegin(sp)

Well, thanks. I am a shy person who doesn’t do so well in live. But I appreciate the confidence you have in me! Now don’t tell anyone that I have been teaching you through answering your questions, eh? We will keep this our secret. And I do hope you will come back!

Mark,
I would be honored to be known as your friend! These kinds of dialogs, I believe, are very helpful for understanding. It is my personal opinion that when there is a disagreement we all need to work first on understanding the other’s position and then work on presenting ours. For if we misrepresent the opposition we are unlikely to build bridges between Christians.

DO you feel that the comp position restricts people using gifts?

Yes, I do feel that the comp position has been very frustrating for women by restricting them. It is especially frustrating when women are treated as if they are so child-like that they have to have a rulebook that defines what they can and cannot do. Can they pray in church? Some say no. Can they be an usher and pass the offering plate from front to back. Lots say no. Can they baptize a new believer? There are so many restrictions that so many women cannot help but feel like a second class citizen.

But perhaps the most challenging situation is one that is not easily recognized and that is that men are left without some of God’s best gifts and their attitudes are adjusted even without their knowledge. When men are routinely kept away from women teachers they miss out on a balanced view from a whole other side of the 50% members of the body. Also keeping men away from women’s gifts does something to a man’s worldview. So many are tempted to either see women as less then men or they see men’s gifts as worth more than women’s gifts. After all, in their minds they don’t need women’s gifts so how important are these gifts? It is such a temptation to have an unChristlike attitude for comp men. I really don’t envy men in this area. It must be very hard for so many of them who naturally struggle with their egos.

I don’t think that is what is at hand, rather that comps want people to use their gifts in acoordance with how the bible instructs us to use them.

Then how come they spend so much of their time working on the restrictions rather than working on the opportunities?

When have you seen a Sunday set aside for women teachers to use their gifts and women encouraged to come and bring their friends? No restrictions at all. When are women encouraged to preach to other women? So many deny the use of women’s gifts in preaching even though the Scripture never says that women cannot preach to women even if we take the comp view. I think that we as the church have been so brainwashed to a tradition that we don’t even recognize what has happened to us. Kind of like boiling a frog. Apparently if you do a slow boil, the frog will stay in the water and won’t even jump out. Perhaps we have been slow-boiled to death!

I would also like to strongly emphasise, that although i am a comp, i in no way do not love my sisters in Christ any less.

You, sir, are very special! I so wish that there were more of you around. You are a pleasure to deal with!

The comp position doesn’t promote un-love towards women.

I do not think that they willingly promote an unloving attitude. However the very essence of the comp position is that the male has an authority over the woman and taking authority over another person’s will even if the male feels that he has a benevolent attitude, can do great harm.

My husband is a wonderful man. He thought that he was doing a loving act to make sure that I was not harmed by many things and that I got over my fears. In fact he took his authority over me right from the start on our honeymoon forcing me to the edge of a cliff to deal with my fears. It didn’t help me. And his habit of protecting me so that I didn’t have to deal with decisions by making wrong choices didn’t help me no matter how great his intention was. I needed to learn how to make wrong choices and then to get up and become mature through the process. So the comp way kept me stagnated for many years. It wasn’t until we dumped the comp model and made our model as the one-flesh and equal servant model that I started to grow in leaps and bounds. But if anyone wants to say that my husband was bad or had evil motives, they will have to face me. No one will get past me to question his motives. He tried his best to live out his responsibilities. The problem was that the responsibilities were tradition, not Scripture. It is God’s will that the body of Christ becomes a mature bride, not a dependent child-like one. The same for the human wives. The more mature I became and the more independent, the more my husband received honor from my growth. That was a gift to me and a gift to him.

I don’t think it is helpful for egals to see the comp position as one which is sexist or unloving.

If you could walk a mile in our shoes, perhaps you would understand. We are not questioning the motives of these dear men. We are questioning the model itself as unbiblical.

But that said, there are many people who would come across that way or even promote it. But this is not a true reflection of what the comp position is. Did i explain this well? Probably not as is my habit

I think you have a great heart. I am also quite confident that you actually live out an egalitarian-based marriage model. Most godly comps are mostly egalitarian in their marriages although they probably don’t like to admit it because that might make them feel like maybe they aren’t a true leader.

Lots to think about anyway!

Hi Mark,
I don’t expect everyone to be clear on the Trinity. It is a difficult subject to comprehend and explain.

You said:

What i am trying to emphasise is that Jesus and the Spirit are not just ‘faces’ of God, but distinct people in the Godhead.

Certainly all three are distinct Persons in the Godhead. We don’t want to “confound” the Persons when we emphasize their unity.

I’m afraid i still dont agree with head being ’source’.

1 Cor. 11 is a good test case. Here we see three that are the “head of” another. The context will define the meaning of each passage. We can easily get “source” as the meaning of the man as “head of” the woman because of the word “origin” in verse 12.

1Co 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

Something that has an origin from another is said to have that thing as its source.

The question then is whether we can get a sense of “authority over” in this text? Which part of this text uses authority as something that one partner has over the other? Also notice that it is never “head over” in this passage as one “over” another. If authority over another is not in the passage, then why can’t we just take the plain meaning of verse 12?

I am intrigued with how you link Jesus or the second member of the Godhead with Lord of Hosts in the OT. Hopefully i get a chance to see your DVD on it at some stage.

I hope you will be able to get the DVD. It is so jam packed with information it really deserves several views to take it all in. This is also what most people told me about my DVDs on women in ministry. I can’t help it. I am thorough by nature in the area of ministry.

P.S- how is your ministry trip going?

It went really well. We are back now and trying to catch up with what we missed. This time was filled with work and ministry meeting but we did have time too for sleeping in and a little shopping. It made it a very relaxing time. Thanks for asking!

Frank,

I think that when we do our very best, we don’t need to be ashamed. God looks at the heart and he will teach us where we lack.

Thank you also for such a good word about my work!

Kathleeen,
I am so glad that you are out and are free from that kind of abuse! I can really relate too. I also know what it is like to breath freely as a person who is free in Christ.

Mara,
I do want to keep my blog as respectful as I can, but I do realize that this relies mostly on me. There are many hurting people here and to make them hold back some of their hurt because it might offend a weak complementarian brother is more than I want to do. I don’t plan to practice moderating comments.

I believe that the comps here can help by understanding that this is a place where people come who have been greatly abused by men and women in the comp movement. If we hold back their pain, then I think we are just adding to their pain and it may come across as being abusive. I want to be gracious to all, but I also have a great deal of patience for those who are in pain.

If these things overly offend comps, I would just like them to try really hard to try to put themselves into the other person’s shoe. It is what I believe Galatians 6:2 means:

Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Mark,
You said:

Sure some things are e.g head coverings, but in the wider picture Christianity brought women to a place where they had never been before, so the early church is not inerrently sexist or stuck in their culture of the time.

I do not believe that the early church was inherently sexist, but I do believe that some were and they tried to stir up trouble. As far as the head covering issue, there is a very important cultural meaning to the head covering that the church has failed to discuss. You can find it in the Jewish oral law and in John Lightfoot’s commentaries. You can get a good feel for what the head covering means by watching the preview clip on the head covering issue that I have put on youtube here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C33wUR9zcBg

You said:

It seems Cheryl that you think Comps demand submission from another- am i right in assuming this?

The way I would describe it is that comps teach that males have an inherent authority over women due to their special privileges as males in the home and in the church. They are to take this authority and use it as it is a mandate given by God. I lived this life for a lot of years so I know intimately what male rulership looks like even if the intent is benevolent.

If there is no authoritative aspect to a marriage for example, then it is not a true reflection of Christ’s covenant with His church.

Christ’s covenant with His church is that the church will rule with Him. The enemies will be placed under our feet as we are the body of Christ. The bride is not placed under Jesus’ feet. This is a typical explanation but it is only tradition, not Scripture.

Do you think the husband has any authority over his wife?

Yes. The husband has authority over his wife’s sexuality.

1 Cor 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

But note that the wife also has authority over her husband’s body in just the same way as his authority. This is the only place in the Scriptures that I have ever found where either a husband or wife is told to have authority over the other. If you know of something that I have missed, I would appreciate seeing the text of Scripture.

TL did a very good job in answering the rest of your comments so I don’t think I need to say any more here.

Hey Mark,
I am trying to get through all the questions brought up on my blog the last couple of days as well as the questions on the Australian blog. I hope that I don’t miss any questions. If I don’t get to them within another day and I miss something, please remind me.

I like your questions! They are very good and well-thought out.

1. If this is a Jewish oral law quoted from the Corinthian letter, how can you be certain?

There are quite a few clues that point to the origin of the Jewish oral law. First of all we know that the Corinthians wrote a letter to Paul concerning their questions and some of their statements were matters of debate. One of the great commentators of the Bible from many years ago (can’t remember his name right now but it is in my DVD) said that whenever we come to a view that is opposed to Paul’s known views, we can suspect that this is a view that was being proposed to Paul from the letter. The whole quote is in the DVD so if you get it, you will see much more evidence than I can put here.

Secondly there is the issue of the term “filthy” (shameful) in 1 Cor. 14:35. This is a term that is common in the oral law regarding women. In the BDAG lexicon it means:

in var. senses from ‘ugly’ in an external sense to ‘base’ as in moral deformity

Paul never used a term for moral deformity for women’s voices but the Jewish oral law did.

Thirdly verse 35 shows that women’s learning is to be done at home not in the congregation. This is opposite of Paul’s confirmed views of everyone learning in the assembly in the very same chapter! But the Jewish oral law didn’t allow for women learning in the assembly. In fact fathers were not encouraged to teach their daughters the law because that was shameful or vile. Recognize the terms again? Yup, same source. Then the pesky “law” that cannot be found in God’s Word is a major red flag. One cannot appeal to a “law” and base a restriction on women until one knows where the law is found. Because we know it is the view of the oral law, we can be sure that the quote is a quote from the Corinthians. Also there is the specific grammar of verse 36. These are all evidences that must not be passed by.

Your view holds onto a lot of ‘probables’ aswell.

Not probable at all. The “law” and the attitude about women’s learning and women’s voices is found in the Jewish law. None of this is found in God’s law. Therefore there is not even a small piece of evidence that this was Paul’s appeal to a Biblical “law”.

For example, if this is a quote, it is very unlike any of the other quotes used throughout the rest of 1 Corinthians.

This isn’t “evidence” against a quote. After all Paul used lots of unique words and if we made a judgment just because Paul didn’t need to make such a full quote of anything else, then that is very poor reasoning. The fact is what is the evidence within the context?

What is your evidence that Judaizers had infiltrated Corinth?

The evidence is that the restrictions on women known to be from the Jewish oral law are given in contradiction of Paul’s known views of women. The Judaizers had pretty much gone everywhere else. And if the Jewish oral law was being quoted here, then certainly they had come here too. Their language is pretty easy to pick up. It is very degrading to women.

And what is ‘super apostles’ actually refering too?

This is off the topic and I just don’t have time right now to go down the rabbit trail. Not that this isn’t a good question. It is great. Perhaps a trail we can do sometime in the future.

the rejection of Paul by the Jews, suggests that prodominantly the congregation was non-jewish.

Sure, it is likely that a good portion was non-Jewish. This isn’t a problem.

Therefore why would Jewish ‘oral’ law have been an issue at Corinth?

Because the Judaizers went everywhere where the Jewish Christians were gathered. There were Jews in Corinth and it doesn’t take more than a few Judaizers to disturb the congregation.

I see just as many probables in your view as any other.

I don’t see any problems with my views. The big problem for comps is to be able to point to the “law” that is appealed to. It is a huge rejection of their view not to be able to find a God-ordained law. Once comps are open to seeing where the “law” originated, the puzzle pieces all fall into place.

We can NEVER be certain that this is a quote from the corinthian letter unless it is discovered,

I have given more than enough evidence to convict. Two or three witnesses is a strong case. Where are your witnesses that this is a God-ordained law found where???

Also it is also very revealing that some will say that we can never be sure of where this law is found, yet they still want to restrict women as having to be silent in the assembly when this is the only verse that says this. Perhaps the prejudice of some shows by their willingness to accept restrictions on women without any a second witness or a “law”.

None the less i appreciate that both you and Carson and others are trying to understand it.

Thanks! There are also some very sincere comps in that movement as well who are willing to admit things that weaken their own position. I quite enjoyed my discussions with Dr. Andreas Köstenberger on the issue of 1 Timothy 2:15. He couldn’t answer my questions but he at least was honest about it and I found him to be a very respectful and likable fellow.

Thanks again for your great questions!

In the New Testament, Christian submission is not based on a submission to authority but a voluntary submission that is based on Christ’s example.

In the culture of that day women were not given a choice whether to submit or not. They were required to submit. But in the Christian setting submission is something that we do out of love not out of necessity.

I am not claiming that men are to submit to women as if women are in authority over men. I am claiming that no one is given authority over others in the body of Christ so that they can demand submission. No one is to take authority over another and the ones who think that they deserve a place of authority are told by Christ to rather take a place of servanthood themselves. There is never a place of commended authority over another person. The Christian position is that of a servant who does his acts of love and service. Men are not exempt from this, in fact they are the ones who are especially told to be servants even of their own wives. This is certainly a position of serving “one another” as the term submission means.