117 Gengwall,

I agree completely. Maybe it’s because I graduated from high school last year and then lived in an all-girls dorm for this year college, but women are no angels. We are every bit as power hungry and sinful as men. “Mean Girls” may be a movie, but it is not fiction.

Cheryl,
Some questions:
1) Is it possible that Eve sinned after leaving the garden and so her sin nature came a different way than Adam?

2) Since sin is sin, regardless of deception, could her so-called “punishments” have been instead corruptions? Like God saying “I am not punishing you but here are the natural consequences of your decision.” That is what my parents do when I make a bad decision based on false information, so just a thought.

3) “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” Enabling bad/abusive behavior is just as bad (in my opinion almost worse) as being abusive yourself. Could this “turning/desire” be the when women worshiped the acquiring of a husband? I know many women (from many backgrounds) whose sole goal is to lay claim to a man and they will justify anything he does, because they only see him as an extension of themselves, not as a human being.

Ok, this will be slightly rambling, but I’ve thought about this a lot and wanted to share it and get some feedback.

First off, “male privilege.” Something just doesn’t sit right. From my experience (that is more female “submission” veiling as manipulation and domination), men don’t seemed privileged at all. Ok, maybe they get to be the “leaders”, but how hard is it to have that kind of authority and maintain a true Christian walk? Knowing myself, it would be a HUGE burden to have this prophet, priest, king, mentality thrown on top of my desire for control. I know my love of a controlled, orderly environment would lead me down the path of dictatorship. The thought of what would happen makes me sick.

It just seems like believing in husband authority puts unnecessary weight on both spouses, that it almost drives the couple apart rather than growing them together. God gave us friendship. Marriage should be the closest friendship, yet there seems to be this unhealthy focus on 2 minor traits that are rather dangerous. Leadership can turn to domination and submission to domination. It just seems to be playing with fire and catering to our sin nature to not have two people equally weighted, balancing each other out in the relationship.

And honestly, I can be the most submissive wife the world has ever seen, and still be a downright awful person to live with. Being submissive does not mean I am truly loving, nor that I am patient. I can be submissive and respectful to the nth degree without every truly loving my husband or engaging him as a human being.

A good man who is aware of his own brokenness may not be thrilled by these responsibilities. This normally healthy man MAY then resort to controlling behaviors (which he will likely detest subconsciously) to compensate for the fact that he knows there is no possible way to live up to the high standard set. Even worse, he will have to face God for his behavior.

Within the marital relationship, if extra power is put on the husband, the extra responsibility should follow. But with all the forms of submission being thrown around, it makes it hard for the husband to have an appropriate counterweight in his wife. So in the name of “headship” or “leadership” a normally good husband may start tilting towards the side of dominating, while a normally good wife, in the name of “submission”, may start withdrawing or yielding unhealthily to the husband.

I hope I care enough about my husband’s immortal soul that I will not allow him to be drawn into unwise or unhealthy territory, regardless of submission. I hope he does the same for me.

30 gengwall,

Thank you for responding!
I do know that the things I listed come from misunderstandings of the Bible. My experience has more leaned to the side of women preferring the CMBW comp position, because it shelters them from having to fully grow up.

I admit, I do feel uncomfortable with women going to war, it is my bias. But basing the argument on children needing their mother, seems to neglect the importance of the father. It just doesn’t sit well.

One of the reasons I look forward to marriage is to be able to have a active sex life! A running joke is that our honeymoon will have to be 4 weeks long 😉 But the majority of material I find on a man’s sexuality is related to avoiding pornography, lust, and premarital sex (necessary teachings) without any focus on developing the positive aspects of a man’s sexuality. (I consider lust to be more along the lines of objectification, than healthy sexual desire). As a result, a male sexuality becomes something to be feared, a monster of sorts. Women are not taught about healthy female sexuality, only that it is her job to provide him with release, lest he wander elsewhere.

Here is an article on Boundless (!), a ministry of Focus on the Family, that might explain my concern better.
http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001887.cfm

I should have clarified my last point, gengwall, that was my mistake. Women are told that being a wife and mother is their highest calling, while men may be called to be a doctor, pastor, plumber, etc. A man can achieve those things by attending school, largely by himself. In order to be a wife, one needs a husband. So, the fulfillment of her calling is dependent on another person’s decision to propose, and their ability to have (successful) children. In other words, her calling is defined by other people, opening the door wide open to sin nature’s manipulative powers.

Please call me out if I’m wrong. Please.
This list is written with sadness and grief, not anger.

Compism seems more and more like white-washed misandry.

Think about it:
-Men: ultimately responsible for family. SOME teach they are even responsible for their sins
-Men: glorified ATM. Veiled as “providing”, even if it means an 80 hr. work week and no time w/ the family
-Men: Lust-driven beasts who cannot control themselves. Men become animals that must be tolerated by wives “doing their duty”
-Men: solely responsible for outcome of the kids, even though he gets less time with them than the mother
-Men: Expendable. God forbid a woman/mother joins the military and deploy, but a man is encouraged to. At the risk of his life and being away from his family for 6-15 months. A mother should never work because the children need her so much, but a father MUST.
-Men: spiritual leader of the wife and children. This does not account for the spiritual “dry spells” that are essential to development. What if he is angry at God? Does a man not even warrant a partner to help him, one who can carry him in his weak times? One he doesn’t have to “lead”?

And finally, the worst way men are objectified. I consider this way to be almost worse than p*ornography:

Men: Sperm donors. If a woman’s HIGHEST calling is to be a wife/mother, then (forgive the crudeness) a man becomes a trophy p*nis. A mere thing she convinced to give her a ring and climb in her bed so she can extract his sperm. And he can “provide” for her and her children. Mission Accomplished; she has fulfilled her calling.

So if I give my hubby a nickname, does that mean I have authority over him? Oy ve, this is getting complicated.

It drives my blood pressure to unhealthy levels when people say men are made to “provide.” Provide what? Food? Money? Does that mean that unemployed or poverty-stricken men are essentially castrated?

One thing I noticed when people do the “nurture” vs. “lead/provide” thing, is that they are looking through a female-21st century tinted glass. The most often used example is of women breastfeeding or playing with a baby/toddler as being nurturing. These things are nurturing, not doubt. But why are those “nurturing” when a father tossing his young child into the air is “playing”? Playing catch with dad is the epitome of “playing” and “bonding” with him, but why isn’t it considered “nurturing” a child’s spirit? Father-child bonding is just as important to psychological development as a mother’s. So why not give demean it as simple “playtime” while elevating the mother’s bond as sacred “nurturing”?

I have also heard that Jesus called 12 men to draw parallels to the 12 tribes of Israel (12 sons of Jacob). What is your opinion on this?

I resisted the urge to ask what to do if the roles were reversed, if it was the wife itching to go to Afghanistan and the husband refused. But of course, that would mean that she was mistaken in her understanding.

Tamara (on the blog’s comments) said it so well,

“This was a great blog post, but wow, some of these comments are really, really painful to read. God had already made the dog before He created Eve… and God is the one who said it wasn’t a suitable mate for him… so lets not think of wives as ‘companions’ that God calls to go where and do what they are told. Submission is not about ‘obedience’… it is about selflessness. So is ‘laying down your life’, by the way, which is how Christ loved the church. Absolutely, we have got it really messed up on both sides, and we are very defensive and self-protecting. We are disobedient, that is true. But God deals with us when we are, doesn’t He? Doesn’t He love us enough to correct us, to encourage us, to affirm His will to us? If you are a person too headstrong to hear the voice of God or to receive His correction, then maybe you have no business being on the missionfield anyway. Unless you’re Jonah.

Is it really possible that some husbands don’t honestly realize that God also speaks to their wives? How can it be so unfathomable to a husband that God also gives to his wife (the one he loves and cherishes) her own unique spiritual burdens, truth, wisdom, visions, passions and callings, all of which she is called to humbly lay before the Lord with open hands? ALL things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purposes. Sometimes we think God is calling us to something, but what God really wants is to teach us something… to reveal something of Himself and His nature to us, to build character in us, to teach us what it means to love, to purify us of our vanity, our selfish ambition and our sentimental notions of who He is and what He is truly calling us to. If a husband cannot first lay down his life for his beloved wife – the one person he vowed before God to honor, care for and forsake all others for – how can he ever hope to reveal Jesus to a stranger? He hasn’t begun to understand his calling as a man of God, as a husband, as spiritual leader in the home.

If there is any missionfield today, I think it is the marriage. I pray that God will have compassion on us, and stir the hearts of men and women from the far corners of the earth, to come to us and speak the gospel to us here in North America! God clearly stated that the marriage is God’s clearest picture – the image bearer – of Christ’s relationship with the church. It is not supposed to be about control, power and authority, but about love, sacrifice and mutual submission. Like most other of God’s profound mysteries, we have absolutely ravaged that picture. Some of ya’ll are making Jesus sound like an abusive husband, and I pray that in His mercy He will pour out His lavish love upon you, that they eyes of your heart may be opened to see the mystery of His heart towards you, His bride!”

I totally agree with her. Another commenter pointed out that statistically, it would more likely be the man who refused to go on missions based on both the % of men in the church and the fact that single female missionaries far exceed single male missionaries.

Of course spouses can be selfish and materialistic, marriage does not cure one of sinful humanity.

Kay,
Thanks for your words of encouragement.
Rereading my post, the last part came across as more “wallowing in self-pity” than I wanted. I have been doing a pretty decent job of moving forward. Not perfect by any means, but steadily moving along. 🙂
I see the day coming soon when I will no longer be dominated by fear, I am almost free.

I realize that much of the talk results in abuse towards wives. But they abused my dad. All he wanted to do was to give his kids better than what he had. They’re preachers, so they should know how to be a godly man, right? My dad went to them for help, he wanted so badly to do the right thing, and they threw it in his face.

What happened? A good man fully understood the weight of having “divine authority”, was unable to fuse that with the fact that he is a flawed human being, so he withdrew. And thus began the war.

My dad could not be close to my mom, because if he was, she would see that he was indeed an ordinary screwed up human being. If she saw that he could choose wrongly, she as a wife would be forced to go against her conscience and obey him, which he though disgusting.

However, since my dad grew up with and abusive, dominating, control freak of a father, and didn’t want to repeat that, he resorted to passive-aggressive behavior and criticism. He became incredibly insecure and depressed, because he saw how far he fell short of this “divine wisdom” ideal, which furthered the fierce cycle of passive-aggressive, aggressive, depression.

My mom was taught this “joyfully submit” idea as well. In real life, this mean she had to become extremely passive, to the point where she struggles to have firm opinions. My dad detested this, as he loves strong, intelligent women and married my mom because she was intelligent. She became a stranger to him, and he could not respect this “child” she had become as his equal. The only way my mom can be assertive is through passive-aggressive behavior.

So now, we have two adults being passive-aggressive, along with the fact that my dad began to have severe depressive cycles resulting in him lashing out (verbally) in anger, which does not make for a healthy family environment.

My dad once apologized to me for showing emotions! For showing frustration! He was frustrated because after 3 years of my having major medical problems, doctors were no closer to finding out the answer. I think he had a right to be frustrated! He said he failed to because as a husband/father, he is supposed to “be Christ to his family.” Not “Christ-LIKE”, Christ.

My dad is very intelligent and extremely observant. This means he is right most of the time. However, these teachings meant he had to be right ALL of the time, leading to major conflicts between he and my brother. Their relationship is strained at best.

As a result of the fact that my parents could not be close to each other, they each took a child to be close to. There was no incest or sexual relationship, but the relationships are not normal or healthy. My father took me to be his confidante, and my mom took my brother to be hers. An example of this would be when I was 17 and thought I would be a better wife to my dad than my mom is. NOT NORMAL. To this day, I am the “chosen child” in the family. If my brother or mom want my dad to do something, they will ask me to ask him. I am the “little wife” to my dad. It is my job to “seduce” him into doing what they want.

Now, it might seem as though my family are candidates for the Jerry Springer show. Not so. My dad has an excellent job and my mom recently retired from teaching. Both my brother and I are attending excellent Christian colleges. We have some happy times. On the surface we look great, but deep down, there are some very unhealthy patterns. My family is made up of facades. We all talk the good talk, put on our smiley faces, and pretend to be this ideal we are supposed to be. Inside, we are dying.

I consider myself to have two dads. “Daddy” is funny, intelligent, kind, basically the best dad in the world. “Dad” is angry, resentful, and depressed. I do not like him.

In my dad there is no peace. He is always at war. At war with these teachings, with his past, with God, with what he knows to be true, with his depression. He is in his mid-60’s now, there is no changing his past and time is running out to change his future. I am scared to have a family because I do not want to repeat these mistakes. I grieve for what my family could have been. I weep that I have to read psychology books to find what a healthy family is, when it so easily could have been my own.

“was not his (man’s) equal in that she was his “helper”.”
Doesn’t the word for “helper” refer to God in other passages?
If he claims women are “less human” or made in the “indirect” image of God, then I must ask how a sub-human (mother) gives birth to a human (son)?

“A man, just by virtue of his manhood, is called to lead for God. A woman, just by virtue of her womanhood, is called to help for God. ”

Does this strike anyone else as arrogant? Who are we mere humans that God would look on us with favor, let alone have us “lead” for Him? I mean, you have Calvinists and Arminians (stances formed by men) both “leading” for God claiming they are right.
I hope I’m not reading into his words too much.

“he was considered “not deceived” because his special role as spokesman for mankind, designated leader and defender of God was deliberately bypassed by satan.”

Adam must not have been much of a defender if his territory was so easily invaded.
 If this is indeed the case, wouldn’t this “inability” to properly take leadership logically disqualify him from further authority? I mean, in the business world, if someone abuses their authority and essentially ruins the company (Enron), you’re not going to give them more authority. 
So why would God see that Eve had been deceived and Adam had knowingly chosen wrong, but then place Adam with all the authority? Why would he place either in authority?

“Deborah is Not a Judge
She is not a judge in the sense that the book of Judges defines a judge; she is not a military deliverer.17 Rather she is a prophetess, and as a prophetess, she commands and exhorts Barak with God’s own words and authority.” (emphasis mine)
Does anyone else see how ironic it is that in an attempt to keep a woman from having military control over a man, they have given spiritual control to Deborah, and set her up as a teacher over him? 
By defining prophetess as they have, it means that Philip’s four daughters who prophesied were teaching  men God’s word. By their own admission, women taught men in the New Testament.

Honestly, I think many men would do well to follow 9-10.

First of all, I ask these questions not out of the desire to trap anyone, but because at 17 there is a lot I genuinely don’t know/understand about the Bible. After reading the post and this board I have the following questions. So, at the risk of sounding completely ignorant:
What is your (being the general your) definition of spiritual head?
What is the purpose of this spiritual head?
As a single woman am I without a spiritual head?
Would having a husband less spiritual than me block my spiritual growth and/or salvation?
Is equality on earth a bad thing?
If men and women are spiritually equal, why must women have a spiritual head?