TL

”I personally do not believe that the early church had a “male only” rule of teaching.”

I would not think so according to everything that has been written in the NT. However, it could be that in Ephesus especially, the local Jews TENDED toward mainly males for teachers. One would think this because of the Rabbinical writings of the times. Thus, those women mentioned in 1 Timothy would likely be learning from male teachers. That is one possibility.

”I am probably misunderstanding you because it seems like you are saying that they understood church as a class belonging to a man.”

Craig, probably not. Teaching did not only happen in what would be considered church gatherings. Even though we understand that wherever two or three gather, there is the church, it is meant as there is the Body of Christ and the presence of God. We gather for many things including meals, social stuff, fellowshipping, learning and the gathering for ministry. This is something I’ve been trying to differentiate in Bible Study groups lately. People think that because we are the church then everyone ought to be able to share without any boundaries. But teaching requires certain boundaries in orderliness that are different than the local gatherings. Even when Jesus taught in the temple areas for teaching, it was different in order than when they gathered on the Sabbath.

Craig, I would think that associating the negative authentein and teaching negatively would be accurate, but it does seem a toss up. While a person is in a student’s position, they should try teaching anything because they are learning and need to receive a fuller instruction to be equipped enough. IMO all of those are good thoughts.

The ONLY problems that arise are when some try to make this NOT about a woman or group of women learning, but a life prohibition. No such life prohibition has ever been given toward any group of believers anywhere in Scripture. And certainly when Christ came to set us free and give us all the full promise, it is not reasonable to think that suddenly God is going to bind up one part of the Body of Christ.

You know, the phrase “to let learn in quietness and submission” was a phrase used for those who were to be students. So, it is possible that their might have been another phrase that was used also to tell students not to try teaching or ?? leading or something that was replaced with the word authentein. It is doubtful that authentein was ever used commonly in that way. This only points to a specific situation with a specific woman or group of women. Unfortunately, we are not privy to the real situation so we cannot do anything else but wonder a bit.

Great to see you back, Cheryl. I’ve been recouperating from surgery so haven’t been “out” much. You can catch up on me at the forums in the edification board… open for visitor eyes.

As I get online more, I’ll stop by. 🙂

That is creative in a good way, however, it does not fit with the context. The subject is not the church, thus we have to stay with the subject.

but keep thinking creatively. Human religious tradition has dumbed down Christian thinking for so long, it’s almost scary to realize that we must step outside the tradition box in order to fumble around and find the real truth. The real truth will fit with context, historical realities, grammer and other truths already in place.

In the vein of what Cheryl said, there is no such thing as “teaching authority”, as in another has to do what another said because they are a recognized teacher. Rather, it is the other way around. A recognized teacher is such because they have aptly demonstrated the authoritative ability of the Holy Spirit in their teaching. It is not worldly authority that gives special people special privileges that Scriptures speak of. It is rather the observation that the teacher has the ability to be guided by the Holy Spirit that should cause the people of God to be willing to be persuaded by not only the teacher’s words but his/her life as well.

Those who love the truth, don’t care who gives it to them.

Thanks Cheryl. Nice to see you in text! 🙂

One of the lessons we learn from this is that no one is exempt from reaping the results of sin in their lives. Even if we have been deceived, we will reap the consequences of wrong choices. For this very reason we must not allow others to tell us that they will think and decide what is truth for us, and we will not reap the results for believing in something that is not true.

We will always reap the results of our choices whether good or bad. However, IN Christ believers are helped. We are forgiven, cleansed and healed from our wrong choices when we repent and turn from them. And God helps us to recognize right from wrong when we earnestly seek Him with our whole hearts.

I’m sure that things will progress better when your remodeling is done.

But we surely do miss your interaction here.

Aloha Nui,

TL

This is a very clear example of helicopter theology with cut and paste teaching. He pulled things out that contextually had little to do with each other and reformed them into a new doctrine. This is what gender hierarchalists do all the time. They form ‘traditional’ ways of understanding certain verses that believers get accustomed to, so no one really double checks for context.

BTW the Shepherding Movement taught wifely discipline. They chose spanking. Basically, it is viewing the wife as a child that is not allowed to grow up.

Westcott-Hort/Netle-Aland actually have Christos instead of Theo. That’s weird. Scripture4all.org has Theo. They are using the Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus edition. The said:

“One should also recognize that NO printed Receptus Greek text edition agrees 100% with the aggregate Byzantine manuscript tradition (Majority/Traditional Text), nor with the Greek text presumed to underlie the Authorized Version. However, all printed Receptus texts DO approximate the Byzantine Textform closely enough (around 98% agreement) to claim a near-identity of reading between those Receptus forms and the majority of all manuscripts.”

Craig,

thinking out loud back. I suspect it has something to do with God’s great gift of salvation. He has graced us so much. It is only reasonable that we seek to be more like Him, extend grace to one another without demanding anything in return, such as obedience or anything really. Christ does not demand obedience to Himself. He encourages strongly for us to obey the truth, become holy, do good toward one another.

“I wonder if the comp view of our relationship with Christ is a bit like law vs grace. Submitting to the Lord is viewed as the obligation of complete obedience of a slave to the all powerful master rather a loving, voluntary, joyful response to all that Christ has done in His love and grace.”

That would help to explain some of their legalistic tendencies.

As Christ says in Matt. 20:26-28, the point is to NOT exercise authority over others, RATHER we are to serve and become freely committed slaves in serving the Body of Christ.

Hi Craig,

It wasn’t always that way with God’s people. But at various times in world history, humans have devalued women. It influenced the people of God in how they read Scriptures. Women were thought to be mentally inferior, to be created as sexual beings for the benefit of men, to produce children, to please men and so forth. There are some devastatingly cruel and arrogant things Christian and Jewish men have written about women in history.

Yet, rather relevant to how the Holy Spirit has always had a remnant who could be reached, there have always been a remnant of men and women who viewed women with respect and honor. And that goes with anything imbalanced I imagine. There were always people in the world who saw through racism of various kinds, gender prejudices and so forth. Women were preaching in the 1800’s and before, writing books, being evangelists, etc. even while generally they were not allowed to get an education. There are stories of women like Thecla (not many years after Christ ascended) who were amazing ministers of God’s Word in spite of those who thought them indecent to do so.

“To say that the whole church got it wrong for two thousand years about something so ethically important is a big claim.”

This is not really a valid concern. Humanity has gotten so much so wrong for so long, its really a wonder we get much right. Even with the presence of the Holy Spirit in the sacred temple, God’s people were doing much wrong, much from selfishness. Only the priest had a real inspiration to keep pure, since they’d lose their lives when they went into the Holy place if they weren’t right with God. But its our sinful nature to fool ourselves into accepting as much wrong behavior as we can get away with. That leaves a lot of social behavior as open for gaming. And we do. I always find it amazing how much our leaders can get away with doing while still remaining in positions of leadership.

Holiness of heart, intent, and thought are really the last battlegrounds. Yet, it is from there that all our actions proceed.

It is always sad for me to see yet another man who views life as given by God to be all about who has authority and who doesn’t. Then, of course, there is the question of how to exercise that authority and how those under it are to respect it, honor it, and yield to it even obey it. But seldom do they question that foundation.

yes, gengwall, that is my observation also. In addition, we have to note that this is an addition to what God gave to both of them at their creation. Up until this moment the only rule or guardianship that is given is given to both of them for the land and creatures of the earth, and not toward each other.

Barbara,
Very interesting thoughts. I enjoyed reading your comment.

Regarding Gen. 3:16, this is not a command given to Adam. It is a warning given to the woman of what she can now expect their relationship to look like, since they have disobeyed.

very funny , Mara. 🙂

Daron,

I don’t know if you will be here to read this as usually people who throw condemnations and flak do not stay around to discuss it.

First, the fact that Piper opposes mutuality and equality between genders is likely part of the problems he has in his marriage. Every gender hierarchalist I know of personally that has marital problems, I have noted that they are strongly tied to this belief system. Not every male gender hierarchalist exercises his privileges in the same way. And some women do not mind giving most life decisions to others. Thus, not all have problems as a result of those beliefs. But for many women, such a lifestyle is unbearable.

Secondly, I don’t know what degree of sanctification Piper has, but he does indeed display pride often enough. I doubt he is aware of it though. People who grow up with special privileges can easily assume a pridefulness that is related to knowing there is something about them that warrants more privileges than others.

Pride is one of those insidious bits of darkness that it is ready to sneak into ones life the minute one claims they are free from it. So I’d be careful brother. 🙂

great point, Retha. Thanks for sharing.

When is Cheryl returning. I really miss her! 🙁

Gracious woman, you are …. says Youda! 🙂

I admire your patience in dialogue Kristen. Usually I’ve a lot of patience but every now and then someone really challenges it. Guess it keeps me reminded of my human vulnerabilities. 🙂

“the perpetuation of which ends up damaging the gospel of Christ, in Whom we are supposed to be set free.”

Yes, gender hierarchalists not only miss this they never comment on it. In Christ all believers are set free from the power of sin in all its forms of bondage in order to become and mature into the example of Christ Jesus doing the same works that He did. It is not only men that get to mature to be like Jesus and women are to mature to be like Mary. Rather all are to do the same works of the Holy spirit and more as the Holy Spirit guides us.

“it’s just that he doesn’t want us to notice.”

This is in effect the impression I get when hierarchical minded men try to say how beneficial it is for women to be under men’s “protective” leadership, not having to be so responsible, not having so much stress, etc. It’s rather like the wolf in sheep’s clothing presenting presents so that the poor women will willingly accept the gifts that will bring her soul death.

Doesn’t sound reasonable to me.

In my view of leadership, it involves guardianship, a type of overseeing, and a stepping before in areas the leader is knowledgeable in. This is very much like a guide. You want to go hiking in an area you’ve never been in before. Do we think our gender makes the difference in who should be the guide? Most people recognize that they would be wise to choose a guide (whether male or female) who was most knowledgeable of the area and most experienced and skilled in the terrain, animals, weather, etc.

In spiritual matters God calls and equips the persons He knows are best suited and then matures them into the knowledge and skills they need. This is just another reason why it is plain nutsy to assign someone just newly a believer to be any kind of leader in the church. It is especially nutsy choosing a man just because he’s male over a mature woman with knowledge and experience.

In the same way, to say that one can lead without authority is a mistaken view of authority. Worldly authority carries privileges to command and demand with little accountability. This is reasonable on some corporate levels, because the business is owned by the main person in charge. But as Christians we don’t own anything to do with our ministries. Our authority is different. Our authority is power and ability to lead a righteous life, to lead also by example, and to speak knowing what we are talking about because we have experienced it. Any believer who effectively (not by reason of granted privileges) leads people toward a more righteous life indeed does so in the authority of the Holy Spirit. There is no authority higher, more powerful, more responsible and more demanding of the person leading.

“So they would say “because Eve was deceived, all women are easily deceived”? How convenient. In the same appeal (and throughout scripture), Adam’s informed transgression is far worse than Eve’s ignorant transgression. Would they also claim then that all males are immune from deception? If so, why worry about female teachers. Even more significant, would the conceed that all males because of Adam are prone to blatant, conscious, deliberate disobedience while females are conversely immune from it? I doubt it.”

I so love to see good logic. 🙂