The Debates Over 1 Timothy 2

Response to Mike Winger's Women in Ministry Part 12 on the debates over 1 Timothy 2:11-15

Mike Seaver Cheryl Schatz 10

## Responses to question #5

Adam And His Ms Organ

The creation account has been used by many as a foundation to produce myths and stories. While this post will concentrate on modern day myths, it is also helpful to understand some of the historical myths about the creation of male and female

Man Give Woman Self Understanding

Was the first man needed to give woman her self-understanding. According to Raymond C

Modern Myths About The Titus 2 Woman

When the issue of women in ministry is brought up, one of the scripture passages that is used as a slam-dunk women-must-stay-in-the-home passage is Titus 2:3-5. Is this passage really about women restricted to the area of the home with cooking, cleaning and raising children, or are women allowed by

The Rest Of The Story 1 Timothy 211 15 And Matt Slick

> Proverbs 18:17 (ESV) The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him

@american_d1ce @smashbaals You think that by teaching mutual submission that thi

@american_d1ce @smashbaals You think that by teaching mutual submission that this is subverting whole households and spreading Jewish myths? Nonsense!

@JEM_Books @sola_chad @ElleRulavage People criticize egalitarians for claiming that it’s about Christian women following the Artemis cult when Paul’s words suggest it’s about genealogies and what sounds like Jewish myths. And the idea of usurping mal...

@JEM_Books @sola_chad @ElleRulavage People criticize egalitarians for claiming that it’s about Christian women following the Artemis cult when Paul’s words suggest it’s about genealogies and what soun

@darylsterk Sorry, I just saw this now. There are certainly false teachings and myths that were coming in. Paul’s explicitly statements suggest Jewish myths: “…myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to useless speculation rather than advanc...

@darylsterk Sorry, I just saw this now. There are certainly false teachings and myths that were coming in. Paul’s explicitly statements suggest Jewish myths: “…myths and endless genealogies, which g

@Meritocrating @_Nosoup4you__ @FavaAnthony @_NoSoup4You_ Many Christians agree with my conclusions...just not always with the same reasons I use. I don't bring in Artemis as I don't see Paul referring to this cult but to Jewish myths. It matters not...

@Meritocrating @_Nosoup4you__ @FavaAnthony @_NoSoup4You_ Many Christians agree with my conclusions...just not always with the same reasons I use. I don't bring in Artemis as I don't see Paul referring

@BronWen727104 Could be. Though in 1Ti 1 where Paul introduces the strange doctrines, he refers to myths and genealogies and fruitless discussions about the law. I’m not sure what that has to do with Artemis. 1Ti 2:9 refers to elaborate hair—likely a...

@BronWen727104 Could be. Though in 1Ti 1 where Paul introduces the strange doctrines, he refers to myths and genealogies and fruitless discussions about the law. I’m not sure what that has to do with

@Crystalisives That certainly could be, though Paul didn’t directly refer to Dia

@Crystalisives That certainly could be, though Paul didn’t directly refer to Diana in 1Tim, though perhaps in the bucket ‘myths’ in 1Ti 1.

@carol66944 @Manny_Clay1 You are now repeating yourself and not adding anything new to your argument. How is taking Paul's explanation seriously "devotion" to genealogies and myths promoting speculation? Paul doesn't add new information to Ge 2-3, b...

@carol66944 @Manny_Clay1 You are now repeating yourself and not adding anything new to your argument. How is taking Paul's explanation seriously "devotion" to genealogies and myths promoting speculat

@carol66944 @Manny_Clay1 These verses make one wonder what Paul is doing here. T

@carol66944 @Manny_Clay1 These verses make one wonder what Paul is doing here. Trying to understand Paul's intentions in why he wrote what he did is *not* what Paul was admonishing people not to do.

@carol66944 @Manny_Clay1 1) Agreed! Yet Paul always wrote with the understanding

@carol66944 @Manny_Clay1 1) Agreed! Yet Paul always wrote with the understanding that his private letters contain scripture and would also be beneficial to the church. 2) Agreed. 3) Are you suggesting

@carol66944 @lollyfana @RedefineApolog1 If Paul says to pay no attention to myth

@carol66944 @lollyfana @RedefineApolog1 If Paul says to pay no attention to myths, but then pays attention to such myths in his argument which he doesn't refute, doesn't that sound odd to you?

@MERC_OCULAR @laurie_guilbeau @RoCa74394915 Lilith comes from Jewish myths which are not part of scripture and which we should avoid. "Nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship ...

@MERC_OCULAR @laurie_guilbeau @RoCa74394915 Lilith comes from Jewish myths which are not part of scripture and which we should avoid. "Nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which

@missnic06 There are scriptures that refer to these kinds of Jewish myths and tells us not to follow them. "Nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith” ...

@missnic06 There are scriptures that refer to these kinds of Jewish myths and tells us not to follow them. "Nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rathe

@EtAbundatGratia @mythreesonsb @MikeWingerii ...which immediately follows Paul's clear intent on why he wrote this personal letter to Timothy: “Just as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, to remain on at Ephesus so that you would instruct ce...

@EtAbundatGratia @mythreesonsb @MikeWingerii ...which immediately follows Paul's clear intent on why he wrote this personal letter to Timothy: “Just as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, to

@NotTheBaptizer @KimberleeJayneW @deadtosin610 I get it. Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to stop certain people from teaching strange doctrines. It’s certainly a thing. But the idea that a godly woman can teach men or not is not one of those things Paul...

@NotTheBaptizer @KimberleeJayneW @deadtosin610 I get it. Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to stop certain people from teaching strange doctrines. It’s certainly a thing. But the idea that a godly woman ca

@RovingWolv @LutheranLifter "Just as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, to remain on at Ephesus so that you would instruct ***certain people*** not to teach ***strange doctrines,*** nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, wh...

@RovingWolv @LutheranLifter "Just as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, to remain on at Ephesus so that you would instruct ***certain people*** not to teach ***strange doctrines,*** nor to

@Yessiiiiir @MikeWingerii Paul says to Timothy in 1 Tim 1:3-4, “Just as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, to remain on at Ephesus so that you would instruct certain people not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and e...

@Yessiiiiir @MikeWingerii Paul says to Timothy in 1 Tim 1:3-4, “Just as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, to remain on at Ephesus so that you would instruct certain people not to teach stra

@3HillsMinor @Rattle_Resists @Kdubtru @michael_ronning You are misinterpreting 1 Tim 2:12. You assume it's as clear as mud, but its just mud in the eye of the complementarians and Patriachists! Read chapter 1⎯how Paul refers to the purpose of stopp...

@3HillsMinor @Rattle_Resists @Kdubtru @michael_ronning You are misinterpreting 1 Tim 2:12. You assume it's as clear as mud, but its just mud in the eye of the complementarians and Patriachists! Read

@Tobari80901590 @pearlythingz That idea is completely foreign to the Biblical text and is inserting myths into the account. “Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, ‘I have obtained a male...

@Tobari80901590 @pearlythingz That idea is completely foreign to the Biblical text and is inserting myths into the account. “Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave bi

@MariusM38610501 @MikeWingerii I agree, yet he doesn’t explicitly identify what the source of the issues are or tie them to Artemis cult activities somehow getting into the church. What we see in 1 Timothy is: 1. Myths and Endless Genealogies (1:4)...

@MariusM38610501 @MikeWingerii I agree, yet he doesn’t explicitly identify what the source of the issues are or tie them to Artemis cult activities somehow getting into the church. What we see in 1 T

@IdorenyinEtuk5 @Drprincessjanet @Solomon_Buchi Yes, and this is expressly what

@IdorenyinEtuk5 @Drprincessjanet @Solomon_Buchi Yes, and this is expressly what Timothy was to do with the false teachers at Ephesus which was also a problem with the church Titus was shepherding. Je

@IdorenyinEtuk5 @Drprincessjanet @Solomon_Buchi Yes, one should not pay attention to myths. In 1 Tim 1:3-4, Paul instructs Timothy to tell the Ephesian believers not to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote controversies...

@IdorenyinEtuk5 @Drprincessjanet @Solomon_Buchi Yes, one should not pay attention to myths. In 1 Tim 1:3-4, Paul instructs Timothy to tell the Ephesian believers not to occupy themselves with myths a

1 Timothy 2:11-15

Sections: cross_references, debate_points, exegesis, greek_analysis

1 Timothy 1:3-5

Sections: cross_references, debate_points, exegesis

Revelation 2:14

Sections: exegesis, greek_analysis

Revelation 2:20

Sections: cross_references, debate_points, exegesis

διδάσκω (didasko)

to teach

ἑτεροδιδασκαλέω (heterodidaskaleo)

to teach differently / to teach strange doctrine

Analogy to overturned German scholarship on the Gospels and Greek myths

Mike argues that entire schools of scholarly thought can be wrong and get overturned.

Examining claims about a feminist Ephesus and Artemis cult female superiority

Mike evaluates whether Ephesus was actually a 'hyper-feminist' city dominated by female authority through the Artemis cult.

Critique of the Kroegers' 'I Suffer Not a Woman'

Mike provides detailed scholarly critique of the Kroegers' influential but problematic book.

Carrier constructs a 'Frankenstein theory' drawing on ancient literature to claim Gospel narratives were plagiarized from myths

Carrier's literary dependence argument for the Gospel narratives

Earlier 20th-century scholarship (especially the Jesus Seminar) treated the Gospels as myths, but current scholarly consensus has shifted. Graham Stanton (King's College London) and David Aune (Notre Dame) both argue the Gospels fit the genre of Greco-Roman biography (bios), which aimed to faithfully record historical fact even with theological purpose.

Maurice Casey (agnostic) concludes mythicist arguments are completely spurious, put forward by incompetent and unqualified people

Quoting another non-Christian scholar on mythicism

The dying and rising gods parallel argument fails because Paul and non-Christian sources still have to be explained independently of the Gospels

Initial response to the Greco-Roman dying/rising gods parallel argument

First-century Christians were pious, Torah-observant Jews who debated minutiae of Jewish law — making wholesale borrowing from pagan myths implausible

Cultural argument against the pagan parallels theory

Audience Q on mimesis: pagan parallels fail for the same reasons, plus early Christians were Torah-observant Jews who would not borrow from pagan myths

Audience question about mimesis / pagan parallel arguments

Christians can hold various views on Genesis 1 and the Big Bang; the Big Bang is actually strong evidence for God.

Question 11 from J James about whether the Big Bang is biblical.