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Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Audience Q: Why doesn't anyone reference Tacitus on Christian persecution until the 4th century? — Multiple 1st-century sources confirm early persecution of Christians

Audience question from "Godless Engineer" about Christian persecution attestation

Acts Hebrews Paul Peter Acts
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Suetonius's reference to "Chrestus" in Life of Claudius possibly refers to Jesus — but Suetonius is chronologically challenged if it does

Discussing Suetonius as a possible extra-biblical source for Jesus

historicity of Jesus extra-biblical sources Suetonius
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Suetonius's report of Claudius expelling Jews from Rome matches Acts 18 — illustrating how omissions in one source don't prove falsehood; Josephus doesn't mention this expulsion

Cross-referencing Suetonius and Acts; illustrating argument from silence

Acts 18 argument from silence Josephus extra-biblical sources
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Did Paul hallucinate seeing Jesus? Hallucinations are private, not group experiences — Paul's companions also saw the light and heard the voice (Acts 9)

Audience Q about whether Paul hallucinated his encounter with the risen Jesus

Acts 9 Paul resurrection appearances hallucination hypothesis
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Paul quotes Psalm 16:10 in Acts 13, arguing Jesus's body did not decay — therefore the resurrection was physical and bodily, not merely visionary

Paul's bodily resurrection theology inferred from Acts 13

Acts 13 Psalm 16:10 David Paul resurrection
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Paul's resurrection theology reconstructed from 1 Corinthians 15: Christ is firstfruits; believers will be raised at Christ's coming in the same manner

Paul's own teaching on the nature of resurrection

1 Corinthians 15:20 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul resurrection bodily resurrection
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Paul's eschatology: 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:20-22 show an intermediate disembodied state after death, before the final bodily resurrection

Paul's two-stage eschatological framework

2 Corinthians 5:8 Philippians 1:20-22 Paul eschatology intermediate state
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

1 Thessalonians 4: Jesus will "bring with him" the dead in Christ, whose spirits are reunited with raised bodies — a transformer/transformative resurrection

Paul's 1 Thessalonians 4 passage on resurrection and the coming of Christ

1 Thessalonians 4 Paul eschatology intermediate state
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Summary: Paul taught physical/bodily resurrection; hallucination theory fails; Paul was not grieving Jesus's death — he was glad Jesus was dead before his conversion

Concluding the section on Paul's resurrection belief

Paul bodily resurrection resurrection appearances
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Audience Q on mimesis: pagan parallels fail for the same reasons, plus early Christians were Torah-observant Jews who would not borrow from pagan myths

Audience question about mimesis / pagan parallel arguments

historicity of Jesus dying and rising gods pagan mythology
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Richard Carrier's claim that all historians have concluded the criteria of authenticity are invalid is false — most historians still embrace the criteria

Audience Q about the methodology of validating historicity of Christ

Richard Carrier criteria of authenticity historical methodology
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Licona published a critique of the Keith/Le Donne volume in the Bulletin for Biblical Research, arguing scholars are too pessimistic about the criteria

Licona's scholarly engagement with the debate over historical criteria

Mike Licona criteria of authenticity historical methodology
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

John Dominic Crossan in debate with Licona affirmed the use of criteria — demonstrating that most historians still rely on them

Licona's debate with Crossan as evidence of continuing scholarly use of criteria

John Dominic Crossan Mike Licona criteria of authenticity John Dominic Crossan
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

The criteria of authenticity are not magical — they are common-sense principles: prioritize early sources, eyewitness reports, unsympathetic sources, multiple independent attestation

Explaining what the criteria of authenticity actually are

multiple attestation eyewitness testimony criteria of authenticity
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Advice to those influenced by Richard Carrier: read other skeptical scholars — Ehrman, Lüdemann, Casey — who have proper training in historical Jesus scholarship

Practical guidance for those following Carrier's mythicist arguments

Richard Carrier Bart Ehrman Jesus mythicism
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Licona's book Why Are There Differences in the Gospels? required classicist review to avoid errors in Plutarch material — illustrating disciplinary boundaries

Personal example of the importance of disciplinary specialization

Plutarch Mike Licona historical methodology
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Only a handful of bona fide scholars deny Jesus's existence — Carrier said there were seven including himself, none widely respected in their disciplines

Quantifying the scholarly minority who deny Jesus's historical existence

scholarly consensus Richard Carrier Jesus mythicism
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Red flags for mythicists: fringe scholarly support + primarily internet bloggers = gullibility warning; comparable to moon landing denialism and Holocaust denial

Warning signs that a position may be a conspiracy theory

epistemology Jesus mythicism historicity of Jesus
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-19

Pastoral observation: many Jesus mythicists are atheists/agnostics who find it convenient to deny Jesus existed rather than grapple with who he claimed to be

Winger's pastoral/spiritual observation about mythicists' motivations

apologetics atheism Jesus mythicism
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

1 Corinthians 13:10-12 is the primary cessationist proof-text in the cessationism vs. continuationism debate.

Introduction to the episode. Winger frames the central question: does 1 Cor 13:10-12 teach that tongues, prophecy, and knowledge ceased after the apostolic era?

1 Corinthians 13:10-12 cessationism continuationism spiritual gifts
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Cessationism defined: miraculous gifts belonged to the apostolic era only, served a unique founding purpose, and ceased before the canon closed.

Winger reads a definition from Theapedia. He contrasts it with continuationism, which holds the gifts are normative and available today.

cessationism continuationism spiritual gifts
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 in context: the love passage is embedded within 1 Cor 12-14, a sustained section on spiritual gifts.

Winger reads the passage aloud (1 Cor 13:8-13) and establishes its literary context before presenting cessationist interpretations.

1 Corinthians 12-14 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 1 Corinthians 12-14 prophecy word of knowledge
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Cessationist Interpretation 1: "the perfect" (to teleion) = the completed Bible, supported by a mirror/perfect-law parallel in James 1:23-25.

First of two cessationist readings. Proponents cite the shared vocabulary of "mirror" and "perfect" (teleios) between 1 Cor 13 and James 1 to argue the perfect thing is Scripture.

1 Corinthians 13:10 James 1:23-25 cessationism canon of Scripture to teleion
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Rebuttal of Interpretation 1: teleios is a broad word with many non-Scripture referents, and the mirror image in James functions differently than in 1 Cor 13.

Winger raises two problems with equating "the perfect" with the completed Bible.

1 Corinthians 13:12 James 1:4 James 1:17 cessationism face to face with God 1 Corinthians 13:12
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Many cessationists themselves discourage using 1 Cor 13 as a proof-text for cessationism because it does not yield the argument verse-by-verse.

Transitional observation before presenting the second, more sophisticated cessationist argument from the Masters Seminary.

John MacArthur 1 Corinthians 13 John MacArthur cessationism 1 Corinthians 13
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Cessationist Interpretation 2 (Masters Seminary): prophecy and knowledge = inscripturated revelation; massive time gap between vv. 11 and 12; "the perfect" = the church brought to maturity by the Bible.

Summary of the three key concepts in the Masters Seminary article that underpin its cessationist reading of 1 Cor 13.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 cessationism canon of Scripture to teleion
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

The Masters Seminary article: verse 12 is acknowledged to be about seeing Christ face-to-face, but a 1,000-year time gap is inserted between vv. 11 and 12 to salvage the cessationist reading.

Winger quotes the article directly to show how the author handles the face-to-face language.

1 Corinthians 13:12 cessationism face to face with God 1 Corinthians 13:12
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Rebuttal: the inscripturation claim for prophecy and knowledge is unsubstantiated; New Testament prophets generally did not produce Scripture.

First major exegetical objection to the Masters Seminary argument. Winger demonstrates that NT prophets were not primarily Scripture-writers.

Acts 21:9 Acts 11 Acts 21:9 cessationism prophecy
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Rebuttal of the massive time-gap claim: the verse-by-verse flow of 1 Cor 13:8-12 is continuous; no gap is linguistically justified.

Second major objection. Winger argues the narrative logic of the passage runs uninterrupted from v. 8 through v. 12.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 cessationism to teleion exegesis
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Verse-by-verse: v. 8 — love never ends; three gifts (prophecy, knowledge, tongues) will pass away; the context is clearly the spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12-14.

Winger begins his own positive verse-by-verse treatment of 1 Cor 13:8-13.

1 Corinthians 13:8 spiritual gifts prophecy word of knowledge
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Verse-by-verse: vv. 9-10 — Paul includes himself in "we know in part," undermining the inscripturation reading; even apostolic knowledge is partial, not completable by writing.

Key exegetical point: the first-person plural "we" in v. 9 includes Paul and the other apostles, not just ordinary charismatics.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 apostolic authority prophecy inscripturation
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Verse-by-verse: v. 11 — the child/adult analogy illustrates that the gifts are a temporary measure, but the maturity in view is eschatological glorification (1 Cor 15), not canonical completion.

Winger grants that v. 11 sounds like it could support the church-maturity cessationist view, but locates its referent in resurrection/glorification.

1 Corinthians 15 1 Corinthians 13:11 cessationism 1 Corinthians 15 eschatology
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Verse-by-verse: v. 12 — "face to face" and "know fully even as I am fully known" point to the eschatological vision of God, not completion of Scripture; confirmed by 1 John 3:2 and 1 Cor 8:3.

Winger's positive exegesis of v. 12, identifying "the perfect" with the second coming/resurrection state. He cross-references 1 John 3:2 and 1 Cor 8:3.

1 Corinthians 13:12 1 John 3:2 1 Corinthians 8:3 eschatology glorification face to face with God
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

1 Corinthians 15 confirms: "the perfect" is the resurrection state — imperishable bodies, the last trumpet, being changed — not the completion of the Bible.

Winger appeals to 1 Cor 15 (same letter, shortly after ch. 13) as the definitive referent for "when the perfect comes."

1 Corinthians 15 cessationism 1 Corinthians 15 eschatology
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Main point of 1 Cor 13: love, not gifts, is the permanent priority; pursuit of love must exceed pursuit of spiritual gifts.

Winger concludes the exegesis by restating Paul's actual primary argument.

1 Corinthians 13:13 spiritual gifts love 1 Corinthians 13:13
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Winger's own position: open but not normative — he agrees with cessationists on apostleship and a likely reduction of healing gifts, but rejects full cessationism.

Having refuted the cessationist use of 1 Cor 13, Winger clarifies his own nuanced view to avoid being read as a rampant charismatic.

apostolic office cessationism continuationism
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Critique of Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry: prophetic activation exercises using Uno cards reduce prophecy to social engineering and fabrication.

Winger pivots to critique hyper-charismatic practice, using Bethel's published school curriculum as a concrete example.

Matthew 18 Matthew 18 Bethel Church Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Teresa Dedmon / Bethel: selling art as a vehicle for "spiritual impartation" and prophetic clothing that enhances God's presence is false teaching and commercial exploitation.

Second specific example from Bethel: the creative arts director's website claims her paintings and clothing impart heaven's presence.

Bethel Church false prophecy discernment
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

The cure for hyper-charismatic abuse is not cessationism but the biblical regulative norms already given in 1 Cor 12-14 for how gifts function in the church.

Winger resists the reactionary move of becoming cessationist in response to charismatic excess.

1 Corinthians 12-14 1 Corinthians 12-14 cessationism continuationism
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Personal testimony: Winger reports a small number of personal experiences he believes were genuine prophetic insights that subsequently proved true.

Winger offers experiential (not dogmatic) support for remaining open to the gifts.

continuationism spiritual gifts prophecy
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Q&A: Tongues in 1 Cor 14 are actual languages; tongues always requires genuine linguistic communication; "groaning" in Romans 8 is distinct from the gift of tongues.

Response to viewer question about whether 1 Cor 14 tongues are languages or ecstatic utterances.

1 Corinthians 14 Romans 8 1 Corinthians 13:1 1 Corinthians 14 Romans 8 spiritual gifts
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Warning against seeking comfort in progressive or unorthodox theology as a false catharsis; such teachers typically demonize biblical Christianity to wedge in their reinterpretations.

Q&A response about walking with a friend questioning traditional beliefs, specifically mentioning Greg Boyd.

biblical authority apologetics discernment
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Cessationism is more common in Reformed theology but not universal; John Piper and Paul Washer are examples of Reformed non-cessationists.

Q&A response on whether cessationism is tied to Reformed or dispensationalist theology.

John Piper John Piper cessationism continuationism
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Winger's church practice: open to Spirit-prompted words but does not structure services around spiritual gifts; anti-normative posture.

Q&A response about how gifts function in his church.

continuationism church order spiritual gifts
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Views on gifts are often driven more by experience than Scripture; the exegetical case against cessationism from 1 Cor 13 is strong but trajectory arguments for cessationism are weak.

Q&A — viewer asks whether people's positions on sign gifts are experience-based more than Scripture-based.

biblical authority cessationism continuationism
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Resource recommendation for documented modern miracles: Craig Keener's two-volume work "Miracles" provides medical/testimonial evidence catalogued by a respected scholar.

Q&A — viewer asks for visible evidence that gifts of healing are active today.

Craig Keener spiritual gifts healing
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Can a person speak in tongues without having the gift of tongues? Possibly — but Romans 8 groaning is distinct: it is heart-pouring to God, not a spiritual gift requiring impartation.

Q&A — question about whether tongues-speaking requires the specific gift.

Romans 8 Romans 8 spiritual gifts tongues
Mike Winger idea 2019-06-26

Historical question: sign gifts did not begin at Azusa Street; early church fathers (Justin Martyr, later Augustine) attest to prophecy and miracles continuing post-apostolically.

Q&A — viewer claims modern tongues/gifts stem from the 1906 Azusa Street revival. Winger corrects the historical record.

cessationism continuationism church history
Mike Winger idea 2019-07-03

Introduction: Isaiah 45:7 quoted as evidence God created moral evil

Opening setup of the livestream topic

Isaiah 45:7 Isaiah 45:7 Did God Create Evil moral evil
Mike Winger idea 2019-07-03

Study plan: Hebrew word analysis, context, origin of evil, and other questions

Mike outlines the teaching structure for the session

Isaiah 45:7 Isaiah 45:7 biblical interpretation methodology Hebrew exegesis
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