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All (421) Mike Winger (421)
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Definition of egalitarianism: equality in both personhood and role, with no limits on what women can do in the church including serving as elders.

Framing the debate — defining key terms

eldership gender roles egalitarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

For egalitarians these role questions are easy; for complementarians they require nuance. Examples include women theologians like Nancy Pearcey and the debate over women seminary teachers (John Piper opposes it).

Scope of practical questions raised by this debate

John Piper complementarianism Nancy Pearcey John Piper
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mike's personal journey: he wanted to become egalitarian, prioritized egalitarian scholarship, read Philip Payne and Linda Belleville, but did not change his mind.

Mike's personal stance and research journey

soft complementarianism Philip Payne Linda Belleville
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Self-assessment recommendation: ask yourself what view you WANT to have, to identify your own biases before studying.

Preparing to study the topic honestly

self-assessment bias awareness hermeneutics
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 3 will cover women in leadership in the Old Testament, including Deborah and egalitarian surveys of female leadership.

Series overview and roadmap

Judges Linda Belleville Deborah women in OT leadership
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 5 will cover Galatians 3:28 ('no male or female in Christ') — the egalitarian 'trump card.'

Series overview and roadmap

Gal 3:28 egalitarian proof text no male or female
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 6 will cover headship — whether husbands are 'head' of their wives. Egalitarians reject or redefine 'head' (kephale).

Series overview and roadmap

egalitarian scholarship kephale headship
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Video 9 will cover 1 Timothy 2 — the key complementarian passage about women not teaching or having authority over men, including the word authentein and the cult of Artemis.

Series overview and roadmap

1 Tim 2:12 authentein cult of Artemis
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Life experience bypasses scripture on both sides: 'A woman pastor ministered to me' (egalitarian) or 'Women have frequently been false teachers' (complementarian).

Mistake #1: Life experience overriding scripture

bypassing scripture experience-based theology false teachers
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #3: Believing it is the 'evils of patriarchy' that must be fought — egalitarians who frame complementarians as patriarchalists use privilege/power language to bypass scripture.

Mistake #3: Evils of patriarchy

bypassing scripture patriarchy egalitarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

This anti-patriarchy presupposition leads egalitarian scholars to one of two conclusions: the Bible does not teach patriarchy, or the Bible teaches it and is wrong.

Mistake #3: Evils of patriarchy

egalitarian scholarship Bible and patriarchy biblical authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Groothuis's argument appears in chapter 20 of 'Discovering Biblical Equality' — a brand new edition of the premier egalitarian multi-author volume that Mike read including an advance copy.

Mistake #4: Equality of personhood rules out role differences

egalitarian scholarship Rebecca Merrill Groothuis Discovering Biblical Equality
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Many egalitarians expand male authority to its most monstrous extreme to make it intolerable, causing readers to reject complementarianism before ever reading the Bible.

Mistake #4: Egalitarian rhetorical strategy

bypassing scripture straw man argument egalitarian rhetoric
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Tom Schreiner's response to Groothuis: egalitarians face the 'daunting prospect' of saying non-priestly Israelites had less dignity than Levites.

Mistake #4: Schreiner's critique of Groothuis

Levites Tom Schreiner Two Views on Women in Ministry
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Even if Groothuis is right philosophically, her conclusion explicitly blocks Bible reading — she says there can be 'no biblical or theological warrant' for women's submission, which pre-determines what the Bible is allowed to say.

Mistake #4: How Groothuis's argument bypasses scripture

bypassing scripture biblical authority Rebecca Merrill Groothuis
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Philip Payne's related argument in 'Man and Woman, One in Christ': if we are equal in Christ, we cannot exclude anyone from leadership based on gender.

Mistake #4: Payne's variant of the philosophical argument

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ equality in Christ
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Both Groothuis and Payne's philosophical arguments kill Bible study by leaving only two options: the Bible supports egalitarianism, or the Bible is wrong.

Mistake #4: Conclusion

bypassing scripture Philip Payne biblical authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Abuse can be addressed without proving egalitarians are right — let egalitarians be right because of biblical arguments, not extra-biblical ones. This was probably the biggest reason Mike did not become egalitarian.

Mistake #5: Conclusion

bypassing scripture egalitarianism abuse arguments
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

The reverse would also be invalid: blaming egalitarians for divorce rates and dysfunctional homes would equally bypass scripture.

Mistake #5: Showing the argument works both ways

bypassing scripture logical consistency
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Mistake #6: Thinking submission is inherently evil — submission was not a bad word in biblical culture, though it is in modern culture.

Mistake #6: Submission is inherently evil

submission cultural assumptions 1 Pet 5:5
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Linda Belleville is so opposed to submission that she argues nobody had authority in the early church — not even Jesus or the apostles.

Mistake #6: Belleville's extreme position on authority

Linda Belleville submission authority in the early church
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Egalitarians do the same with Galatians 3:28; Thomas Schreiner argues no single set of texts should function as a prism controlling the others.

Mistake #7: One passage rules the rest — egalitarian side

Gal 3:28 1 Tim 2:12 proof-texting
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Three commitments: (3) Mike will not be 'God's PR department' — he will not avoid truths or fail to confront false beliefs to make Christianity palatable.

Three things Mike will NOT do in this series

God's PR department biblical submission intellectual honesty
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-07

Preview of Genesis 1-3 debate: creation order, Adam naming Eve, Eve as climax of creation, Adam blamed for the fall, dominion given to both, 'your husband will rule over you' — with complementarian and egalitarian responses to each.

Preview of next video (Video 2)

Gen 1-3 creation order Adam naming Eve
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Introduction to part 2 of Women in Ministry series, framing it as a month-long research project engaging deeply with egalitarian views.

Series introduction and framing

women in ministry complementarianism egalitarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Definition of complementarian and egalitarian positions in the debate over women in ministry.

Framing the two sides of the debate

women in ministry complementarianism egalitarianism
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Both egalitarians and complementarians agree that Genesis 1-3 is theologically foundational for understanding male-female relationships.

Establishing common ground between the two sides

Gen 1-3 Discovering Biblical Equality Mary Conway
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

The general complementarian approach sees Genesis 2 showing husband's leadership role, confirmed in Genesis 3; the egalitarian approach says authority only appears in Genesis 3 as part of the curse.

Overview of the two interpretive frameworks for Genesis 2-3

male authority Gen 2 Gen 3
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mary Conway's argument that all plural imperative verbs in Genesis 1:28 include both man and woman with no restriction on any activity, including dominion.

Egalitarian argument from Genesis 1

Discovering Biblical Equality Gen 1:28 Mary Conway
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Genesis 1 focuses on humanity's relationship to creation; Genesis 2 focuses on the relationship between man and woman, especially husband and wife.

Transition from Genesis 1 to Genesis 2

Gen 2 Gen 1 dominion vs. marital roles
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Reading of Genesis 2:7-25 with key observations: Adam made first, given commands alone, names animals alone, Eve made from Adam's rib.

Genesis 2 reading and initial observations

creation order Gen 2:7-25 adam naming animals
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Philip Payne's egalitarian argument: 'bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh' emphasizes shared essence and kinship, never subordination.

Egalitarian interpretation of Genesis 2:23

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ Gen 2:23
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Two types of egalitarian arguments for Genesis 2: negative case (refuting complementarian points) or positive case (Genesis 2 rules out authority differences).

Framework for evaluating egalitarian arguments

Gen 2 negative vs. positive case egalitarian hermeneutics
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Payne's second argument: the man (not the woman) leaves father and mother, which implies equality rather than male authority.

Egalitarian argument from Genesis 2:24

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ Gen 2:24
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Payne's third argument: father and mother sharing authority over the son before he leaves shows egalitarian parental authority.

Egalitarian argument about shared parental authority

Philip Payne Gen 2:24 parental authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Phyllis Trible's argument that Adam was a sexually undifferentiated 'earth creature' before Eve's creation, not male -- from 'God and the Rhetoric of Sexuality' (1978).

Egalitarian counter-argument to creation order

Phyllis Trible God and the Rhetoric of Sexuality ha adam
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Trible's influence: her arguments are borrowed by Payne, 'Discovering Biblical Equality,' Tucker and Liefeld's 'Daughters of the Church,' and other egalitarian works.

Trible's scholarly influence despite flawed arguments

Philip Payne Discovering Biblical Equality Phyllis Trible
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Primogeniture in Hebrew culture: the firstborn had greater authority; older people had more leadership -- this cultural context is key to reading Genesis 2.

Cultural background for Schreiner's creation order argument

creation order Gen 2 primogeniture
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Egalitarian pushback: animals were made before Adam in Genesis 1, so creation order doesn't imply authority -- Mike's response: Genesis 1 and 2 are separate accounts, and primogeniture only applies among humans.

Egalitarian counter-argument to primogeniture

creation order Gen 2 Gen 1
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Linda Belleville's argument: Genesis 2 speaks of order and source, not authority -- Mike's rebuttal: these aren't mutually exclusive; primogeniture is precisely about order implying authority.

Egalitarian counter-argument from Belleville

Linda Belleville Gen 2 order and source
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mary Conway's counter-argument: biblical exceptions to primogeniture (Jacob, Esau, Joseph, David, Ephraim, Manasseh) show the Bible doesn't care about birth order -- Mike's rebuttal: exceptions prove the rule.

Egalitarian counter-argument on primogeniture exceptions

Discovering Biblical Equality Mary Conway primogeniture
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

1 Timothy 2:12-13 as New Testament commentary on Genesis 2: Paul draws on Adam being formed first as relevant to male-female relationships.

NT support for creation order argument

creation order 1 Tim 2:12-13 Paul
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Schreiner's point 3: Eve called Adam's 'ezer' (helper) -- complementarians argue this implies subordination, but Mike finds the egalitarian rebuttal strong on this point.

The 'ezer' (helper) debate

Tom Schreiner ezer kenegdo
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Linda Belleville's argument: every other OT use of 'ezer' has no connotation of submission; God himself is most commonly called 'ezer' in Scripture.

Egalitarian case that 'ezer' doesn't imply subordination

Linda Belleville ezer Hos 13:9
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Egalitarian overreach on 'ezer': Belleville claims it implies 'help that only God can provide' -- Mike refutes this with Ezekiel 12:14 where 'ezer' refers to military helpers.

Egalitarian overreach on the meaning of 'ezer'

Linda Belleville ezer Ezek 12:14
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Philip Payne's overreach: calling 'ezer' 'rescuer' and Eve 'man's savior' goes too far in the other direction.

Egalitarian overreach on 'ezer'

Philip Payne Man and Woman, One in Christ ezer
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike's view on 'ezer kenegdo': 'helper' simply means Adam can't be fruitful alone; 'kenegdo' (corresponding to him) doesn't mean 'his equal in all ways' -- both sides overreach.

Mike's settled interpretation of 'ezer kenegdo'

ezer kenegdo Gen 2:18
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Phyllis Trible's objection to the naming argument: naming requires both 'call' and 'name' together in the sentence; Gen 2:23 lacks this formula.

Egalitarian counter-argument to naming = authority

Gen 2:23 Phyllis Trible Gen 4:17
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mary Conway's alternative approach to naming: it's an act of discernment, not authority, based on George Ramsey's 1988 paper.

Alternative egalitarian argument on naming

Discovering Biblical Equality Mary Conway naming as authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-03-14

Mike rejects the egalitarian view (e.g., Craig Keener) that subordination only appears in Genesis 3 as part of the curse; he sees a 'godly, tensionless leadership' for Adam in Genesis 2 as part of God's good creation.

Mike's key conclusion on Genesis 2

Gen 2 Craig Keener Paul, Women, and Wives
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