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Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Grenz argues the Spirit's sovereign call and gifting, not gender, determines who can be an elder

Grenz's more detailed argument: since the Spirit calls believer-priests to ministry, gender cannot be an overriding disqualifying factor.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Discovering Biblical Equality Stanley Grenz 1 Corinthians 12:7
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback 1: Not all priests can be elders — eldership has requirements beyond being a Christian

Mike's first rebuttal to Grenz: the Bible pragmatically refutes the argument by listing elder qualifications beyond priesthood.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications Titus 1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback 2: If the Holy Spirit is the source of the gender limitation, then ignoring it removes the Spirit's sovereign call

Grenz claims gender restrictions remove the Spirit's sovereign call. Mike flips this argument.

Stanley Grenz eldership qualifications sovereignty of the Spirit
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback 3: Grenz's argument assumes priesthood + gifts are the ONLY factors for eldership — they are not

Grenz's case rests on two factors: being a priest and having gifts. Mike argues these are not the only factors.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 Stanley Grenz eldership qualifications
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Mike argues for obedience even if God's reasons seem offensive to culture

If one of the elder qualifications is being male, that may be offensive to our culture, but God has the right to set up His church as He sees fit.

divine authority cultural offense
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Priesthood means no one mediates between you and God; this is different from teaching

Mike now builds his positive case for what priesthood means for Christians and why it does not equate to eldership.

1 Timothy 2:5 priesthood mediation 1 Timothy 2:5
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Timothy 2:5 — one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Mike cites this verse as foundational for the doctrine of no human mediators in Christianity.

1 Timothy 2:5 mediation 1 Timothy 2:5 church tradition
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Hebrews 10:19-22 — believers can enter the holy places directly through Jesus's blood

Mike uses Hebrews to demonstrate that all believers have direct access to God without a mediator.

Hebrews 10:19-22 priesthood mediation Hebrews 10:19-22
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

No special group of Christians should serve as a bridge to God's grace for other Christians

Mike argues against any form of priestly mediation within Christianity.

Hebrews 6:19 Roman Catholicism mediation Hebrews 6:19
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Correction for complementarians: the husband is NOT the priest of his home

Mike disagrees with many complementarians, including pastors he has respected, on this point.

headship universal priesthood of believers complementarian correction
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Being a priest does not mean anything about being an elder; eldership is not priestly in character

Mike draws the sharp distinction: priesthood is about access to God, not about teaching or leading others.

eldership priesthood mediation
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Anticipated objection: if women could not be OT priests but are NT priests, why can't they hold the highest roles?

Mike addresses the challenge to his view: if women's exclusion from OT priesthood was about gender, and now they are priests, doesn't that prove they can have any role?

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 Levitical priesthood eldership qualifications
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

What was uniquely priestly was the mediating function, which now belongs to all believers

Mike clarifies the distinction between priestly mediation and teaching.

1 Timothy 2 1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 2 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Argument 4 introduced: The prophecy argument — if women prophesied, they can teach and be elders

Mike introduces the fourth and one of the more challenging arguments. Women prophesied, prophecy is a high role with authority, therefore women can teach and be elders.

prophecy argument women prophesying
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Survey of women who prophesied in the Bible: Miriam, Huldah, Deborah, Isaiah's wife, Anna, Philip's four daughters

Mike establishes that women clearly prophesied throughout the Bible, both in the OT and NT.

Isaiah's wife Luke 2 Acts 21:9 Deborah women prophesying Miriam
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 11 gives rules for how women should prophesy in public gatherings; Acts 2 / Joel 2 declares sons and daughters shall prophesy

Key NT evidence that women prophesied publicly in church gatherings.

1 Corinthians 11 Acts 2 Joel 2 1 Corinthians 11 Acts 2 women prophesying
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Three egalitarian claims from women prophesying: (1) women could speak publicly, (2) prophecy is similar to teaching, (3) prophecy carries authority rivaling eldership

Mike outlines three sub-arguments egalitarians derive from women prophesying.

Craig Keener prophecy argument prophecy and authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Claim 1 analysis: Women speaking publicly in mixed-gender gatherings is demonstrably true

Mike agrees with the first egalitarian claim derived from prophecy.

prophecy argument women speaking publicly
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Two key passages used by strong complementarians to deny women speaking publicly: 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2

Mike identifies the passages that fuel the opposing view.

1 Timothy 2 1 Corinthians 14:34 John MacArthur 1 Timothy 2 1 Corinthians 14:34 John MacArthur
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Complementarian claim that women only prophesied privately is an error

Some complementarians argue women had private prophetic revelation but never prophesied publicly.

Deborah Huldah Barak
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 11 clearly refers to prophecy in public mixed-gender gatherings; the whole section (chs. 11-14) deals with gathered worship

Mike argues the broader context of 1 Corinthians leaves no room for limiting this to private settings.

1 Corinthians 11 head coverings 1 Corinthians 11 women prophesying
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Anna prophesied publicly at the temple to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem (Luke 2:36-38)

Mike presents Anna as another example of public, mixed-gender prophetic speech.

Luke 2:36-38 women prophesying Anna Luke 2:36-38
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 gives parallel instructions for men and women prophesying in the same context

Mike reads the key text: men are told how to prophesy, and in the same breath women are told how to prophesy.

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 head coverings women prophesying 1 Corinthians 11:4-5
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

John MacArthur's response: maybe Paul means public places but not congregational worship gatherings

Mike quotes MacArthur's article (from gty.org) about head coverings to show his interpretation.

1 Corinthians 11 John MacArthur 1 Corinthians 11 John MacArthur Grace to You (gty.org)
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

MacArthur's real basis: 1 Corinthians 14:34 (women keep silent) overrides the plain reading of 1 Corinthians 11

Mike identifies that MacArthur's position depends entirely on 1 Corinthians 14:34 controlling the meaning of chapter 11.

1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 14:34 John MacArthur hermeneutics 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 14:34
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Four reasons why 1 Corinthians 11 must be about Christian worship gatherings, not just public places

Mike gives detailed reasons for rejecting MacArthur's reading.

John MacArthur 1 Corinthians 11:16 John MacArthur 1 Corinthians 11:16 church gathering context
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Broader context of 1 Corinthians 11-14 confirms it is about gathered worship: Lord's Supper and spiritual gifts in church

Mike appeals to the wider literary context to confirm his reading.

1 Corinthians 11:17-34 1 Corinthians 12-14 1 Corinthians 14:3-4 1 Corinthians 11:17-34 1 Corinthians 12-14 1 Corinthians 14:3-4
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

MacArthur's conclusion quoted and rejected: 'women may have the gift of prophecy but normally are not to prophesy where men are present'

Mike quotes MacArthur's specific position and says the rule 'seems wrong.'

1 Corinthians 14:34 John MacArthur women prophesying Philip's daughters 1 Corinthians 14:34
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Key distinction: Scripture limits HOW women prophesy, not WHERE or WHEN

Mike summarizes his position on women and prophecy.

1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11 women prophesying how vs. where
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Claim 2 analysis: Prophecy is similar enough to teaching that women should be able to teach in mixed gatherings

Mike now analyzes the second egalitarian claim from women prophesying.

1 Corinthians 14:31 soft complementarianism 1 Corinthians 14:31 prophecy and teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy is NOT teaching — the Bible consistently keeps them in separate categories

Mike's key pushback: while prophecy may involve elements of teaching, they are distinct categories in Scripture.

eldership prophecy and teaching biblical categories
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Important qualifiers: context, frequency, and whether a woman is functionally serving as an elder matter

Mike adds nuance about when teaching from a woman might cross a line.

functional eldership women teaching
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

The egalitarian move 'prophecy involves teaching, therefore all teaching is acceptable, therefore prophecy equals eldership' blurs God-given distinctions

Mike warns against the slippery-slope reasoning some egalitarians use.

1 Timothy 3 soft complementarianism 1 Timothy 3 prophecy argument
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Claim 3 analysis: Craig Keener argues prophecy carries authority that rivals eldership

Mike examines the third and strongest form of the prophecy argument.

Craig Keener influence vs. authority prophecy and authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Pushback on Keener: influence is not the only issue — no complementarian should limit women's influence

Mike argues that the issue is not about influence but about a specific authority role.

Deborah Priscilla Mary Magdalene
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Do not be allergic to women having influence — that is what gives complementarians a reputation for insecurity

Mike addresses complementarian men directly.

complementarian correction women's influence
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Influence is not the same as eldership — a governor has massive influence but is not your church elder

Mike uses analogies to distinguish influence from the specific authority of eldership.

eldership influence vs. authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Eldership is radically different from prophecy: anyone could prophesy instantly, but elders must meet extensive qualifications

Mike begins a detailed list of differences between prophecy and eldership.

1 Timothy 3 Titus 1 1 Timothy 3 eldership qualifications Titus 1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Elders govern the church; prophets do not — prophets are not appointed to an ongoing office

Mike contrasts the governing authority of elders with the non-governing nature of prophets.

church governance prophet vs. elder office Bethel Church
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy is tested; the prophet has no authority over the evaluation of their own prophecy

Mike explains the testing process for prophecy per 1 Corinthians 14:29 and 1 John 4:1.

1 Corinthians 14:29 1 John 4:1 prophecy and authority 1 Corinthians 14:29 1 John 4:1
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

With elders, you test the man so the teaching will be pure; with prophecy, you test the prophecy because anyone can give one

Mike draws the fundamental distinction in how authority works for elders vs. prophets.

prophecy and authority testing the man vs. testing the word eldership authority
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy is passive in nature — the prophet is not supposed to speak beyond what God gave them

Mike cites Craig Keener in support of this point about the passive nature of prophecy.

2 Samuel 7 David Craig Keener Nathan
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Keener himself acknowledges prophets had 'no authority outside of their message'

Mike uses Keener's own words to push back on other egalitarians who argue prophecy equals authority.

Craig Keener prophecy and authority Nathan
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Prophecy and eldership are very different: prophecy is passive, requires no qualifications or appointment, and the prophet has no ongoing authority

Mike summarizes the key differences that undermine the prophecy-equals-eldership argument.

prophecy vs. eldership
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Scripture places limits on women prophesying: they must acknowledge male headship (1 Corinthians 11) and may not judge prophecies (1 Corinthians 14)

Mike notes that even within prophecy, there are gender-specific limitations.

1 Corinthians 14 1 Corinthians 11 headship 1 Corinthians 14 1 Corinthians 11
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Conclusion on prophecy: it pushes back against banning women from public speech but does not support removing all eldership restrictions

Mike gives his balanced conclusion on the prophecy argument.

soft complementarianism prophecy argument complementarian correction
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Argument 5 introduced: The spiritual gifts argument — God gifts women with the same gifts as men

Mike introduces the fifth and final argument, which he considers the strongest of the day.

spiritual gifts argument teaching gift leadership gift
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Philip Payne's two-part argument: complementarians either assume God never gives women certain gifts OR they wrongly restrict those gifts

Mike presents Philip Payne's formulation of the gifts argument.

1 Corinthians 12:7 Philip Payne spiritual gifts argument 1 Corinthians 12:7
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

Romans 12:6-8 — teaching and leading are listed as spiritual gifts alongside gifts women clearly have

Mike examines the gifts list in Romans 12 to determine whether women can have teaching and leadership gifts.

Romans 12:6-8 spiritual gifts teaching gift leadership gift
Mike Winger idea 2022-05-30

1 Corinthians 12:28 — 'administrating' (leadership) appears as a gift distinct from the office of teacher

Mike examines another gifts list.

1 Corinthians 12:28 apostles 1 Corinthians 12:28 kubernesis (administrating)
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